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HEY GAL posted:Someone was asking about the symbolism of this, and I finally learned it. Sure about Rotte?
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Jan 15, 2015 18:29
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Chamale posted:The Great Horned Owl and the Barred Owl, which live in the Americas, hoot. The Barn Owl, which lives in Europe and almost everywhere else, goes "IE IE". Well drat, I can now definitely understand why a barn owl might signal impending doom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDmRmRb2OpE
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Jan 15, 2015 18:40
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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HEY GAL posted:The rose is the actual rose beneath all these people, a common ceiling decoration in taverns, <snip> the rose of "speaking under the rose" in German in this period, "bringing about a calamity through senseless chatter."
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Jan 15, 2015 19:22
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Tomn posted:This is pretty cool! It looks like the standards of education for officers - high officers, at least - is pretty high. I'm also pretty amused that it's an expected thing that you should be able to stroll into a war zone and ask the local commanding officer to give you a tour of the facilities - were there any concessions towards operational secrecy back then? The people you are at war with should not take a tour of your forts, and letters should be kept secret. That's....about it. JaucheCharly posted:Sure about Rotte? HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Jan 15, 2015 |
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Jan 15, 2015 22:56
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Jazerus posted:IMPEACH TILLY DEBT Edit: Incidentally, Tilly's background accounts for his strategy, which Spanish/Imperials who didn't serve in the Netherlands commonly said is a hallmark of Spanish/Imperials who did: very slow, very cautious, he has to secure every city in his path. The Netherlands, with its high population density and large number of people who are really good at water sieges, sort of trained people in that and then when they went to Germany they frustrated their colleagues. Wallenstein's earliest war experience was in Hungary, full of open spaces, and he's an island-hopper. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Jan 15, 2015 |
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Jan 15, 2015 23:09
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Siege tourism... Is that the kind of thing you have to do on your own dime? I know during the 19th century militaries sent out their observers to all the hot new wars, but before that, was it just part of the cost of keeping up your military skillset?
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Jan 16, 2015 00:11
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A better question is, how the hell were battle observers not immediately seized and executed as spies? 'cause holy gently caress that is a opsec hazard.
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Jan 16, 2015 00:27
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Phobophilia posted:A better question is, how the hell were battle observers not immediately seized and executed as spies? 'cause holy gently caress that is a opsec hazard. Executing neutral citizens tends to be frowned upon in international relations.
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Jan 16, 2015 00:34
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sullat posted:Siege tourism... Is that the kind of thing you have to do on your own dime? Phobophilia posted:A better question is, how the hell were battle observers not immediately seized and executed as spies? 'cause holy gently caress that is a opsec hazard.  The French guys are welcome to hang out, even though their country is no fan of Spain, they just can't go through the lines to the counter-besiegers. (And why they thought eight guys and their retinues could tool around "by stealth" and not get apprehended I have no idea. I don't know what they were doing in Breda either, or how they got there.) HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Jan 16, 2015 |
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Jan 16, 2015 00:50
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gradenko_2000 posted:It's been a while since I last read Masters of the Air, but basically from 1942 to early/mid 1943, the strategy was to send the bombers into deep penetration missions into Germany to strike specific industrial targets. And the bombers would be flying alone because there were no long-range fighters yet. The interesting thing is that while bomber gunners were not very effective against skilled pilots, as the pool of German pilots declined in quality they sought more and more stand-off solutions so they didn't have to put poorly trained pilots against bomber boxes. They didn't stop fighter attacks, but they inflicted a continuous attrition that was one of the big effects of the bombing offensive, really. British bombers had a huge disadvantage in defensive armament compared to American bombers, which was one of the things contributing to the day/night split.
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Jan 16, 2015 01:13
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PittTheElder posted:Well drat, I can now definitely understand why a barn owl might signal impending doom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDmRmRb2OpE Especially the second half from the POV of the prey. Look at how locked on that owl is for the entire attack. Its entire body rotates around its head to the point where it looks almost fake.
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Jan 16, 2015 01:18
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Phobophilia posted:A better question is, how the hell were battle observers not immediately seized and executed as spies? 'cause holy gently caress that is a opsec hazard. What is an "opsec hazard" when mercenary companies are routinely switching sides mid-campaign? If you're dumb enough to make your plans obvious enough that an observer can pick up on them in time to prepare anybody then you might as well give up, because Hans the Landsknecht Captain is going to blow it for you when he defects anyway.
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Jan 16, 2015 01:54
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HEY GAL posted:Everything is, but you're also probably in debt and good luck collecting on that, suckers If you don't mind my asking, who is the author in that screen shot?
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Jan 16, 2015 02:29
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Any good book recommendations on Japan's involvement in China in the first half of the 20th century? Obviously that's a pretty big topic - I'm primarily interested in the land war in the '30s and '40s, but I'd also be interested in a good overview of how they built up control over Korea, Manchuria, Taiwan, and so forth to get a good understanding of the pre-war situation. Any diplomatic history-focused works covering either period would also be cool. Thanks!
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Jan 16, 2015 05:08
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blackmongoose posted:Any good book recommendations on Japan's involvement in China in the first half of the 20th century? Obviously that's a pretty big topic - I'm primarily interested in the land war in the '30s and '40s, but I'd also be interested in a good overview of how they built up control over Korea, Manchuria, Taiwan, and so forth to get a good understanding of the pre-war situation. Any diplomatic history-focused works covering either period would also be cool. Thanks! Beasley, W.G. Japanese Imperialism, 1894–1945. Oxford University Press, 1987. Mitter, Rana. China’s War with Japan, 1937-1945. Allen Lane, 2013.
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Jan 16, 2015 06:51
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Oh hey kosej, would you happen to know anything about the Soviet/Russian "mobile fire zone" concept?
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Jan 16, 2015 07:54
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Thomamelas posted:If you don't mind my asking, who is the author in that screen shot?
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Jan 16, 2015 08:25
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HEY GAL posted:That that's how they say squad? Yup. Seen it a billion time on rolls, which list dudes in their squads. And dudes are often mentioned hanging out with their "Rottgesellen." Why do you ask? "Rotte (mittellateinisch rupta ‚versprengte Schar‘, zu rumpere ‚reißen‘)". It's tempting to suppose that the term comes from hunting, as it's used to describe a group of boars. Anyone who has seen what they do to the landscape will not have a hard time using that term for soldiers.
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Jan 16, 2015 08:25
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JaucheCharly posted:"Rotte (mittellateinisch rupta ‚versprengte Schar‘, zu rumpere ‚reißen‘)". It's tempting to suppose that the term comes from hunting, as it's used to describe a group of boars. Anyone who has seen what they do to the landscape will not have a hard time using that term for soldiers.
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Jan 16, 2015 08:31
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Xerxes17 posted:Oh hey kosej, would you happen to know anything about the Soviet/Russian "mobile fire zone" concept? Doesn't ring a bell at the moment!
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Jan 16, 2015 08:44
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Koesj posted:Doesn't ring a bell at the moment! That's okay. The only times I've ever heard about it was some vague refrences in regards to the BMP3 and a Russian grognard explaining why the BMP3 is awesome.
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Jan 16, 2015 08:56
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Wait. JaucheCharly, you're a veteran. What's your word for a group of about five soldiers and their leader? (Is this like the time I found out that modern German doesn't say "Muster-Rolle" and as far as the year 2015 is concerned I'm actually speaking gibberish half the time when I speak German?)
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Jan 16, 2015 09:06
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Trupp e: Don't call me a veteran.
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Jan 16, 2015 09:24
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JaucheCharly posted:Trupp
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Jan 16, 2015 09:31
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JaucheCharly posted:Trupp Is "trupp" the equivalent of the American "fireteam" (i.e. 1/2 or 1/3 a squad)?
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Jan 16, 2015 09:38
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Pretty sure Rotte is still used (or was used) by the Luftwaffe to describe a pair of fighters. And while Muster-Rolle probably isn't used anymore, the verb mustern and the term Musterung are still used in a military context (when my draft notice came I had to show up to a Musterung for my physical, where it was decided that I would best serve the Fatherland by staying well away from the military).
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Jan 16, 2015 09:40
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ArchangeI posted:And while Muster-Rolle probably isn't used anymore, the verb mustern and the term Musterung are still used in a military context (when my draft notice came I had to show up to a Musterung for my physical, where it was decided that I would best serve the Fatherland by staying well away from the military).
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Jan 16, 2015 09:45
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Kaal posted:Is "trupp" the equivalent of the American "fireteam" (i.e. 1/2 or 1/3 a squad)? Rotte is still used to describe a row of soldiers in a larger formation that runs sidways to the face of the formation. And sometimes in fantasy board/computer games to describe targeting.
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Jan 16, 2015 10:12
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Pff. I'm not offended. I'm a veteran of "Eierschaukeln". Nothing that would warrant calling me a veteran in a military sense. A Trupp is 2-7 people. The Nato symbol for it is the same as fireteam, so probably the comparable.
Power Khan fucked around with this message at 10:30 on Jan 16, 2015 |
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Jan 16, 2015 10:18
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tonberrytoby posted:Rotte is still used to describe a row of soldiers in a larger formation that runs sidways to the face of the formation. JaucheCharly posted:Pff. I'm not offended. I'm a veteran of "Eierschaukeln". Nothing that would warrant calling me a veteran in a military sense. Edit: This conversation actually raises the extremely relevant question of how translation is supposed to work. Should I translate "kram" (literal meaning, "stuff;" slang meaning, "a civilian's dwelling place or place of business, possibly a little contemptuous") as "hooch"? "Unterbefehlshaber" as "noncom" (especially since that term includes corporals and drummers)? And if I do, am I implicitly saying that all military experience is, at bottom, somehow the same? HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 10:44 on Jan 16, 2015 |
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Jan 16, 2015 10:30
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Why is that so? If you say veteran in the german sphere, you usually mean somebody who has combat experience or to a lesser extend, somebody who served in a combat zone. The place where I was had a large poster in a hallway, where you could see the ranks of all kinds of armies. As far as I can recall, there's some differences that make translation hard. The fun fact is, that this poster showed jus contemporary armies, but also had the Wehrmacht system on it. Kram? Why hooch, isn't that moonshine or something? Belongings could also be used for Kram, but it's basically just stuff. Krämer is a guy who trades general goods.
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Jan 16, 2015 10:56
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HEY GAL posted:Edit: This conversation actually raises the extremely relevant question of how translation is supposed to work. Should I translate "kram" (literal meaning, "stuff;" slang meaning, "a civilian's dwelling place or place of business, possibly a little contemptuous") as "hooch"? "Unterbefehlshaber" as "noncom" (especially since that term includes corporals and drummers)? And if I do, am I implicitly saying that all military experience is, at bottom, somehow the same? Whenever I'm reading/watching/whatever something translated, I prefer it when they use the most relevant translation, and always really appreciate it when they provide footnotes that explain the literal translation (yes, I've seen this done in subtitles).
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Jan 16, 2015 10:59
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JaucheCharly posted:Why is that so? If you say veteran in the german sphere, you usually mean somebody who has combat experience or to a lesser extend, somebody who served in a combat zone. I have always used veteran in the sense you describe. Essentially "in the military during a war"
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Jan 16, 2015 11:00
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JaucheCharly posted:Why is that so? If you say veteran in the german sphere, you usually mean somebody who has combat experience or to a lesser extend, somebody who served in a combat zone. Hooch is also (US military, probably from the Vietnam War) slang for a small dwelling.
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Jan 16, 2015 11:02
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HEY GAL posted:Yeah, that's Reih for the guys I study. The English say "file" for both Rotte and Reih, but I think the Parliamentarians in their war were often Swedish-trained and the Swedes fight six deep so one Rotte would make a Reih. Since that's not always the case, I translate the different German words with different English words.
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Jan 16, 2015 11:05
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tonberrytoby posted:Now I am getting doubtful at my own memory. Rotte & Reihe are files in the two possible directions (like rows and columns in a spreadsheet), but I am not 100% sure anymore which one is which. If you fall in, Reihe is the dudes in a row back to front, Glied is the guys right and left to you.
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Jan 16, 2015 11:13
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JaucheCharly posted:If you fall in, Reihe is the dudes in a row back to front, Glied is the guys right and left to you.
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Jan 16, 2015 12:24
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Possible. Some things are different in Germany.
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Jan 16, 2015 12:38
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blackmongoose posted:Any good book recommendations on Japan's involvement in China in the first half of the 20th century? Obviously that's a pretty big topic - I'm primarily interested in the land war in the '30s and '40s, but I'd also be interested in a good overview of how they built up control over Korea, Manchuria, Taiwan, and so forth to get a good understanding of the pre-war situation. Any diplomatic history-focused works covering either period would also be cool. Thanks! Parsing my old university reading list, these seem to be the most relevant items: N Ike (ed.) Japan’s Decision for War: Records of the 1941 Policy Conferences S. & T. Shiraishi, ed. The Japanese in colonial Southeast Asia A. Iriye The origins of the second world war in Asia and the Pacific M. Barnhart Japan prepares for total war: search of economic security, 1919-41 Robert Cribb & Li Narangoa, eds. Imperial Japan and national identity in Asia, 1895-1945 Barbara Brooks Japan’s Imperial Diplomacy: Consuls, Treaty Ports, and War in China, 1895-1938 Louise Young Japan’s total empire: Manchuria and the culture of wartime imperialism I can't vouch for them beyond that, but they might be trees worth barking up (checking some reviews etc).
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Jan 16, 2015 13:28
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Panzeh posted:The interesting thing is that while bomber gunners were not very effective against skilled pilots, as the pool of German pilots declined in quality they sought more and more stand-off solutions so they didn't have to put poorly trained pilots against bomber boxes. They didn't stop fighter attacks, but they inflicted a continuous attrition that was one of the big effects of the bombing offensive, really. British bombers had a huge disadvantage in defensive armament compared to American bombers, which was one of the things contributing to the day/night split. Another important thing about gunners is that they significantly reduce the offensive options of the attacking fighters. Usually, sitting directly behind the plane you're trying to shoot is a fairly desirable position, because then it's barely moving relative to you which makes aiming relatively easy. But if that plane has a gunner in the back it's suddenly a very dangerous place to be in, especially since their fire can hit your engine and cockpit head-on and they have just as easy a time shooting at you as you have at them. So you attack from a less favourable position that doesn't have you flying straight at a gun, until they put another gunner there as well. And so on and on, until eventually the germans were forced to stick to attacks at very oblique angles and high speed, which severely reduced their accuracy.
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Jan 16, 2015 13:33
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