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I think the real lesson for all of us here is don't drink the TARDIS's magic floor juice and then spew it out onto your dead friend, or else someone might write Cyberwoman at you.
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Jan 15, 2015 20:08
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All I can imagine is Jack knocking on the door of Orson Pink's cabin at the end of time asking if he wants to hook up.
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Jan 15, 2015 20:11
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The_Doctor posted:All I can imagine is Jack knocking on the door of Orson Pink's cabin at the end of time asking if he wants to hook up. Imagining a version of Listen in which the Doctor's paranoia is justified because Jack was stalking him all along.
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Jan 15, 2015 20:20
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Aha! The Unseen Gay Agenda! *shakes fist* Muuuuuuuuuuuuuurdoch!
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Jan 15, 2015 20:40
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Bicyclops posted:or else someone might write Cyberwoman at you. I hope nobody ever hates me enough to write Cyberwoman at me 
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Jan 15, 2015 21:54
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I was catching up to the thread and some pages ago the Flesh two-parter was brought up and considered mediocre at best. I happen to love it, so, what's wrong with it? I thought it had a good premise and executed on it really well. Oh, and then the ending twist made it even better. One of the clones turning into a literal monster was maybe a bit blunt and unnecessary, but to balance out we got the Doctor goofing around with himself. I haven't rewatched it ever so maybe I've missed something obvious.
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Jan 15, 2015 22:27
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Amppelix posted:I was catching up to the thread and some pages ago the Flesh two-parter was brought up and considered mediocre at best. I happen to love it, so, what's wrong with it? I've always thought it was a decent premise that didn't need to be a two parter. I seem to remember scenes where they're just sitting around waiting for something, though that may not be entirely accurate. I like it, but thought it could have been trimmed up a bit.
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Jan 15, 2015 22:30
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Amppelix posted:I was catching up to the thread and some pages ago the Flesh two-parter was brought up and considered mediocre at best. Whaaaaaaaaa? As far as I can remember it's really highly regarded!
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Jan 15, 2015 22:38
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Amppelix posted:I was catching up to the thread and some pages ago the Flesh two-parter was brought up and considered mediocre at best. I happen to love it, so, what's wrong with it? "Clones are people too" is a really wheezy story archetype and the two-parter does little to innovate it. It's not bad or anything, just doesn't offer much to stick out. Also that child actor they brought on was digging around the crotch of his pants like he found a treasure map leading down there, kind of killed the scene.
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Jan 15, 2015 22:38
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Yeah, the flesh two-parter by my metric is an okay story that's a bit forgettable. It's possible some people resent it for its role within the season arc, I suppose, but on its own, it's good and has some great moments with Matt Smith clowning around. Other than that, it's sort of a typical Silurians-type story about how two groups of people trust each other so little that they fail to live in harmony, when they could have all along, with a mixture of "The Ood just want to be slaves" thrown in as justification for the initial group to distrust. Especially since it's a two-parter, it might have had room to grow in weird Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom directions with mind copies, but I think that would be more of a Big Finish thing.
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Jan 15, 2015 22:43
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I honestly have no memory at all of people thinking the Flesh 2-parter was 'mediocre', not only did I really love both parts, but I recall people being highly complimentary of it not only at the time it aired (including all the discussion it kicked off about how we'd react in similar situations), but every time it was brought up in the years since. Yeah it had its detractors, every episode does, but I certainly don't recall many, if any, saying it was mediocre or that they were indifferent to it.
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Jan 15, 2015 22:52
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I wouldn't call it mediocre per se. I'd say it was good but not the most memorable episode.
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Jan 15, 2015 22:55
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Jerusalem posted:Whaaaaaaaaa? Ok, I took a closer look and it was actually just one guy, with nobody else actually voicing an opinion. Here's the exact quote if anyone's curious Burkion posted:Oh Thank god. Just one disappointing two parter with an interesting ending. But it looks like it wasn't that highly regarded anyway!
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Jan 15, 2015 23:06
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Amppelix posted:Burkion posted: Ah yeah, that makes sense now. 
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Jan 15, 2015 23:25
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HORRAY I got turned into a crowd of people who didn't like that two parter! I'm so happy for me. To be serious- the Flesh two parter isn't bad by any means unlike the Silurian two parter which is awful. It just needed better writing or better editing or SOMETHING and the random super powers the Gangers some times have are just silly and don't look good at all. It's one of the few two parters where it could have been a much tighter single episode especially with so many of the plot points having been done before. Silurian two parter sucks though. gently caress the Doctor being friendly with an alien who literally tortures humans and gently caress the new Silurian designs and just generally gently caress the entire two parter. Only good thing is the ending of the second part. ...not going to lie a lot of my annoyance and bile for the two parter comes in retrospect after watching the original Silurian story from the Third Doctor- which is this, but better.
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Jan 15, 2015 23:25
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Jerusalem posted:I honestly have no memory at all of people thinking the Flesh 2-parter was 'mediocre', not only did I really love both parts, but I recall people being highly complimentary of it not only at the time it aired (including all the discussion it kicked off about how we'd react in similar situations), but every time it was brought up in the years since. Yeah it had its detractors, every episode does, but I certainly don't recall many, if any, saying it was mediocre or that they were indifferent to it. I seem to recall Alan Sepinwall(*) disliked them to such a degree that he didn't even bother publishing a review for The Almost People. That's stuck with me so I've always felt they were bad episodes. (*)by contrast he loved A Good Man Goes to War.
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Jan 15, 2015 23:52
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I didn't care much for the Flesh story when it aired, but I liked it better on rewatching it. I think part of that is the pacing, there's ideas in there that could have made for a solid two-parter but it was other things that padded out the development. Also, copy-Doctor was a bit annoying of a plot development since his entire path was obvious right from the outset; there weren't going to be two Doctors running around the universe when the episode was over.
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Jan 15, 2015 23:56
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Random Stranger posted:I didn't care much for the Flesh story when it aired, but I liked it better on rewatching it. I think part of that is the pacing, there's ideas in there that could have made for a solid two-parter but it was other things that padded out the development. Also, copy-Doctor was a bit annoying of a plot development since his entire path was obvious right from the outset; there weren't going to be two Doctors running around the universe when the episode was over. What I love about the other Doctor is that the first episode has the Doctor just constantly haranguing people for being weirded out by having a double... then his double shows up and normally you'd expect to see the shoe on the other foot with the Doctor now being the one weirded out, except he just immediately and happily embraces the other guy as completely his equal and has no zero issue with having him around. Even better was the way everything made it look like the Flesh Doctor was more volatile, didn't quite have the same level of insight as the "real" Doctor, was more closely linked to the other Flesh, more prone to getting emotionally upset etc and then it turns out that "wrong" Doctor was the actual Doctor the entire time. It just went to show that the "differences" between the two versions were entirely down to perception, Amy paid more attention to the negatives of what she assumed was the copy, and was far more accepting/tolerant of what she thought was the original, when they were basically identical. I really love the Flesh 2-parter, I think it's great and I know I'm not the only one 
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Jan 16, 2015 00:02
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The thing I like I about it is how it feels like an Classic Who story. Tiny mining base, small crew under threat, monsters and creepiness (and some genuine scares), an actual cliffhanger, etc. There's something I can't quite put my finger on exactly why I feel like this, but to my mind it does.
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Jan 16, 2015 00:10
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I think the story missed an obvious (and to my mind, necessary for making the story work) twist where all the people are getting jumpy about the idea of there being clones of them running around, and then the Doctor says, "No John, you are the monsters." And then they run into their real human selves. It's obvious that the message of the show is supposed to be that the clones are exactly the same as real people, but they do spend quite a bit of time plotting and planning and doing evil monster-y things. It's kind of clumsily written and somewhat too long, but then that's the case with pretty much every single two-parter. You can see why this was the one that finally broke the camel's back.
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Jan 16, 2015 00:30
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The Flesh story is kind of drab and dull on the surface but has some really smart ideas and character beneath the surface. It's not my favorite of the season, but I consider season six to be an especially strong season with some of the best episodes of the Moffat era, even if it is let down by some staggeringly terrible choices. (Well one staggeringly terrible choice.)
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Jan 16, 2015 00:56
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The thing I remember most about the Flesh two-parter is all of the ethical discussion it spawned in these threads for two weeks.
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Jan 16, 2015 01:02
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docbeard posted:The Flesh story is kind of drab and dull on the surface but has some really smart ideas and character beneath the surface. It's not my favorite of the season, but I consider season six to be an especially strong season with some of the best episodes of the Moffat era, even if it is let down by some staggeringly terrible choices. (Well one staggeringly terrible choice.) I rewatched Let's Kill Hitler in preparation for the inevitable carnage in Occ's thread. It's better than I remembered. v  v
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Jan 16, 2015 01:09
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The main dissapointing thing about the flesh 2 parter is that at most one of each person lived. It felt like such a copout. Who was that guy who got really violent over the idea of a clone of himself?
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Jan 16, 2015 01:15
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Oxxidation posted:I rewatched Let's Kill Hitler in preparation for the inevitable carnage in Occ's thread. When I most recently rewatched it, I was struck about how good certain parts of it are. The trouble is, the bad parts are SO terrible that they overshadow that. The two actresses who play Mels are especially bad, or perhaps it's more accurate to say they're not good enough to make the dialogue they're given work, since Alex Kingston basically has the same dialogue but has the chops to make it palatable (and her post-regeneration stuff is hilarious). The biggest letdown for me though is in not getting the power dynamic right in the "first" meeting between the Doctor and River - they're pretty much shown as being complete equals with River just getting the upper hand, which really doesn't work with every prior appearance to this. I was always under the impression from her previous appearances that HER first meeting with the Doctor saw him basically being in the position she is usually in, knowing everything about her while she is baffled and confused about who he is. Writing them as equals is laudable to an extent, but kind of wrecks the backwards nature of their relationship and River's enjoyment of actually getting to have the upper hand over him. Season 6 when taken as a whole is quite disappointing, especially in contrast to season 5. But season 6 also has some of the best individual episodes the revival has ever done, it's crazy how the quality can be so high in places but so awful in others.
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Jan 16, 2015 01:34
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Nah, Mels' actress is decent. Child actress not so much, but Caitlin Blackwood was the only decent kid actor on that show anyway.
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Jan 16, 2015 01:50
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Oxxidation posted:Caitlin Blackwood was the only decent kid actor on that show anyway. Agreed. I just hate the smug way Moffat's younger characters (and adult Mels I guess) are written. It feels so phony and forced, Courtney in season 8 is another example though she gets better when she actually gets a chance to do more than make smug asides to characters.
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Jan 16, 2015 01:55
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Bicyclops posted:Tom's interviews about being in the special were so hilarious. Like first of all, he was like "Listen, I'm not supposed to tell anyone that I'm in that thing, but I am," and then he just seemed kind of confused by whole process of sitting around and waiting for other people to film their scenes. I really hope he lives forever so when they're filming the 75th Anniversary, he can just walk by in a key scene, tap his nose, and wink. Even if he doesn't live forever (he will!), he'll be in the 75th. CGI. Think about CGI tech 25 years ago to now. So in 25 more years... CGI. Digitized voice. Calling it now.
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Jan 16, 2015 02:37
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RunAndGun posted:Even if he doesn't live forever (he will!), he'll be in the 75th. In 25 years, Doctor Who will still only be able to afford the CGI available right now.
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Jan 16, 2015 02:47
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Jerusalem posted:The biggest letdown for me though is in not getting the power dynamic right in the "first" meeting between the Doctor and River - they're pretty much shown as being complete equals with River just getting the upper hand, which really doesn't work with every prior appearance to this. I was always under the impression from her previous appearances that HER first meeting with the Doctor saw him basically being in the position she is usually in, knowing everything about her while she is baffled and confused about who he is. Writing them as equals is laudable to an extent, but kind of wrecks the backwards nature of their relationship and River's enjoyment of actually getting to have the upper hand over him. But the thing is he DOES have the upper hand and she does spend a lot of the time confused and baffled about who he is. It's not an exact reversal of their first meeting, so I can see how you could miss it if that's what you're looking for, but it is still a version of her being young and ignorant and him being older and seemingly all-knowing. She's a weapon who's been raised to kill this terrible figure called the Doctor but she doesn't have any idea of who he is as a person. So she goes through with her training, kills him and then goes off to forget about him. Then he comes back and despite the fact that he's dying in horrible pain, he's kind and compassionate towards her. Not only is he not after revenge, he actually saves her from being tortured. She's never encountered anyone or anything like him before and you can see she is totally confused by him. She might have the upper hand when it comes to physical power and the ability to kill people, but that's not what the Doctor's about.
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Jan 16, 2015 03:15
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqn0UHZOSjQ Nothing I can do, a total eclipse of the...
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Jan 16, 2015 03:16
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Organza Quiz posted:But the thing is he DOES have the upper hand and she does spend a lot of the time confused and baffled about who he is. It's not an exact reversal of their first meeting, so I can see how you could miss it if that's what you're looking for, but it is still a version of her being young and ignorant and him being older and seemingly all-knowing. She's a weapon who's been raised to kill this terrible figure called the Doctor but she doesn't have any idea of who he is as a person. So she goes through with her training, kills him and then goes off to forget about him. Then he comes back and despite the fact that he's dying in horrible pain, he's kind and compassionate towards her. Not only is he not after revenge, he actually saves her from being tortured. She's never encountered anyone or anything like him before and you can see she is totally confused by him. She might have the upper hand when it comes to physical power and the ability to kill people, but that's not what the Doctor's about. I did mean in terms of being able to observe and strategize/improvise at a moment's notice, in which she DOES get the eventual upper hand.... but you are right in your interpretation about how the REAL first meeting between them comes after he returns despite dying to try and reason with her and reach her, and it makes things a lot more palatable to me.
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Jan 16, 2015 03:22
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Little_wh0re posted:The main dissapointing thing about the flesh 2 parter is that at most one of each person lived. It felt like such a copout. I was puzzled how anyone was going to believe them about the Flesh drones coming to life without having a second version of anyone around. It's more likely the survivors were going to get committed rather than helping launch an investigation.
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Jan 16, 2015 03:54
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Rhyno posted:I was puzzled how anyone was going to believe them about the Flesh drones coming to life without having a second version of anyone around. It's more likely the survivors were going to get committed rather than helping launch an investigation. Presumably they could science the ones made of Flesh and see they weren't human.
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Jan 16, 2015 03:55
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MikeJF posted:Presumably they could science the ones made of Flesh and see they weren't human. At the end the Doctor says the TARDIS's unique radiationy waves have stabilized them and they're 100% human now.
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Jan 16, 2015 04:34
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FreezingInferno posted:The thing I remember most about the Flesh two-parter is all of the ethical discussion it spawned in these threads for two weeks. I really do wish we could have something with that kind of weight behind it a little more often. It doesn't have to be like that all the time, but it'd be nice to see a little more ambition there.
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Jan 16, 2015 06:05
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That episode was the last time I got a BRCT (I think), and thus the last time I got a new Basiltar. RIP Colin B(aker/asiltar)
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Jan 16, 2015 07:33
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RunAndGun posted:Even if he doesn't live forever (he will!), he'll be in the 75th. I just hope that, when we get to the hundredth episode spectacular, we get some bits from Eleven about seeing all 57 Doctors in 12D.
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Jan 16, 2015 07:52
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FreezingInferno posted:The thing I remember most about the Flesh two-parter is all of the ethical discussion it spawned in these threads for two weeks. Trin Tragula posted:I really do wish we could have something with that kind of weight behind it a little more often. It doesn't have to be like that all the time, but it'd be nice to see a little more ambition there. Yeah, that was great, and it's the kind of well I wish Doctor Who would draw from more often. Big, sci-fi, philosophical concepts. Who was that guy who was basically all 'I would kill myself on sight'? I've not got archives.
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Jan 16, 2015 08:13
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Rhyno posted:At the end the Doctor says the TARDIS's unique radiationy waves have stabilized them and they're 100% human now. Nah, it just says that they're stabilised for good and won't melt.
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Jan 16, 2015 08:38
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