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The new Mordheim game is actually fun.
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Jan 16, 2015 14:31
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serious gaylord posted:Its interesting that the Southampton store had such a positive effect on you since that was my local store for a decade. Still sets the mark for what a GW store should be. Know you were replying to Leperflesh but this is interesting to me. The Southampton GW is the only store I've been to, on a family trip to the mainland guessing around 1995-96. Staff were incredibly helpful and friendly, played a game of Necromunda with one of them and despite me being an idiot child/young teenager at the time he was very chill and awesome with helping me understand the game. Walked out of that store with the Necormunda box and a big smile. Better days.
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Jan 16, 2015 14:39
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ijyt posted:The new Mordheim game is actually fun. Bought into Beta? Thirsty Dog posted:Think he means the recent Panzer General clone. Probably because it's a clone of a good game. But basically every 40K game (and Quest) released last year were cheap clones of whatever mobile POS the devs had made before (in case of WQ, it was the only game they had made before). I normally love Focus, they like to shine light on AA/mid-range game talent, but Stellar Impact... It will be a Stellar Impact clone. To wit:  See? One guy even said that it plays similar to Gothic. On the other hand, they seem to praising the game and bemoaning the lack of players/support. Hopefully, the last part won't be an issue with a game that already has a strong IP backing it and will be featured in places like RPS. ...I wonder if Eldar are going to still be MSM bullshit.
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Jan 16, 2015 14:48
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wizardstick posted:Know you were replying to Leperflesh but this is interesting to me. Its had the same manager for like 15 years and before that he was a staff member. Entirely down to him.
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Jan 16, 2015 14:53
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Joe_Richter posted:Most of the specialist games were actually good (Mordheim and necromunda suffered from using the old warhammer rules). Pity GW decided to double down on their two Warhammer iterations instead. The reason GW stopped supporting specialist games is pretty straightforward. They don't sell minis. Once you have your Blood Bowl team, you're done buying and they aren't going to make money. I know it sounds cold, but they're in the business of selling miniatures at a profit, and the specialist games just don't support that goal. I actually think it's kind of cool that, knowing that, they will still do things like re-release Space Hulk. It's not going to be as profitable as actually releasing product for 40k, but they do it because they can and people seem to like it. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see a new Blood Bowl box or one of the other self-contained games in the near future. I am fairly new to THE HOBBY. I got into WHFB about a year and a half ago with Skaven and I now have a couple armies for both Fantasy and 40k. I buy all my minis from a GW retail store because it is conveniently located for me and the only FLGS nearby is a loving shithole. I also play all my games at the GW store for the same reason. They have never been anything but courteous and supportive of my hobby. That being said, if there was a decent FLGS around, I would be shopping and playing there. I've bought some stuff second hand, but I don't buy models online because I want to pay where I play. When my money goes to my local shop, I know that they'll be there to support my hobby and give me a place to move little plastic men around so I don't have to use my dining room table.
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Jan 16, 2015 14:54
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JcDent posted:Bought into Beta? No, tried a friends copy.
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Jan 16, 2015 15:00
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ijyt posted:The new Mordheim game is actually fun. Has it got a campaign mode yet? I played a bit at release and it was good but very limited
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Jan 16, 2015 15:06
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WhollyChao posted:The reason GW stopped supporting specialist games is pretty straightforward. They don't sell minis. Once you have your Blood Bowl team, you're done buying and they aren't going to make money. I know it sounds cold, but they're in the business of selling miniatures at a profit, and the specialist games just don't support that goal. I see this a lot, and I know it's anecdotal, but I know literally no-one who stopped at a single blood bowl team, necro gang, Mordheim warband, or BFG fleet. The investment was shallower, so people expanded their collections laterally. Plus a smaller investment meant a non-customer could become a new customer. I played blood bowl, space hulk, and dark future before I'd ever even heard of Warhammer. Today all of those are out of print and prohibitively expensive, gating people out of ever touching the really expensive games. Of course no market research was ever done on this, so I feel qualified to say I have just as much idea what their problem is as they do.
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Jan 16, 2015 15:14
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Phoon posted:Has it got a campaign mode yet? I played a bit at release and it was good but very limited Not yet, they've recently added the war camp, which is like a warband management hub for customising armour n poo poo.
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Jan 16, 2015 15:15
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WhollyChao posted:The reason GW stopped supporting specialist games is pretty straightforward. They don't sell minis. Once you have your Blood Bowl team, you're done buying and they aren't going to make money. I know it sounds cold, but they're in the business of selling miniatures at a profit, and the specialist games just don't support that goal. Really? Then how come games like Infinity and Malifaux make money? GW could easily get people to buy several teams, introduce new models (skaven plague monks were introduced in fan made rules) and make new, better minis of old models like corvus belli does. Maybe its harder in a campaign-like game where you likely keep using the same models as they progress in skills, but they could easily make the game better for pick-up games. But they'd rather sell giant robots and 40 man units of witch elves I guess. To bad for them that not everyone is interested in buying that.
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Jan 16, 2015 15:25
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When I finished my BB team of Dwarfs, I bought a BB team of Lizardmen. When I finished my BFG fleet of Imperials, I bought one for Tau. I knew people that rebought their BB teams of Orcs/Humans when the re-released BB and the new Humans/Orcs sculpts came out. Maybe the issue with Specialist games is that they had (relative to WHFB/40k) less models that you had to buy in order to get a complete list. But if the criticism is that specialist games didn't sell because once people bought what they needed, they were done in terms of purchases, can't the same issue be leveled at WHFB/40k? Well, no, because the business model of WHFB/40k was tuned towards regular re-releases which required players to buy new models in order to keep playing with the latest rules. Specialist games, on the other hand, didn't have any such re-releases, with the notable exceptions of stuff like BB. In the end, I think that a much more valid argument is that the reason that Specialist Games didn't sell as well was that the up-front cost of building a valid fleet/band/team was much lower since fewer models were required. It probably wasn't worth it for GW to re-release stuff that didn't do as well as their flagship products in the first place.
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Jan 16, 2015 15:25
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Not a viking posted:Really? Then how come games like Infinity and Malifaux make money? GW could easily get people to buy several teams, introduce new models (skaven plague monks were introduced in fan made rules) and make new, better minis of old models like corvus belli does. The warbands were extremely limited in scope and without proper rules development there was no new minis to make. Infinity and Malifaux have lines that vastly eclipse any of GWs skirmish games in customization and uniqueness as far as rules and aesthetics go within any individual faction. They actually give you a reason to try and diversify your lists over long periods of time even if you don't want to dip into other factions. GW's games are and were hampered by their lovely lack of rules development.
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Jan 16, 2015 15:32
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Tekopo posted:Maybe the issue with Specialist games is that they had (relative to WHFB/40k) less models that you had to buy in order to get a complete list. But if the criticism is that specialist games didn't sell because once people bought what they needed, they were done in terms of purchases, can't the same issue be leveled at WHFB/40k? Well, no, because the business model of WHFB/40k was tuned towards regular re-releases which required players to buy new models in order to keep playing with the latest rules. Specialist games, on the other hand, didn't have any such re-releases, with the notable exceptions of stuff like BB. I think this a better way of phrasing it, but it gets to the same end: specialist games don't support the GW business model of "sell more better plastic men"
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Jan 16, 2015 15:33
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Yeah but companies still make tons of money making board games which use the "buy it once and never again except maybe some expansions" model and it seems to work out pretty well for people like FFG. If FFG were to package up Bloodbowl as it exists right now into a hundred dollar box with four teams worth of minis and then "expansions" that were just the rules for additional teams with a full set of minis people would buy it and it would probably make a decent chunk of change.
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Jan 16, 2015 15:40
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Not a viking posted:Really? Then how come games like Infinity and Malifaux make money? GW could easily get people to buy several teams, introduce new models (skaven plague monks were introduced in fan made rules) and make new, better minis of old models like corvus belli does. Unlike Infinity, Necro and Mordheim had very much limited ranges of types of troops you need. A commander, two elites, meatheads and maybe something that counts and juvie. Largely similar stats and equipment. So, they can all look largely identical. Not with Infinity, where items and skills are spread around far and wide. I'd say Battlefleet Gothic had the most potential for expansion, expecialy the Imperial fleets with their endless variety of ships and somewhat free mix and match between factions. That said, "nobody stops with one team" would hold true. Infinity thread is full of folks pining about lack of funds for new armies. Why can't they just steal some rule ideas (actual 1-20 stats, which are better suited for campaigns) and make a better campaign game? Are there any good campaign games out there, anyways?
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Jan 16, 2015 15:43
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Blood bowl: updated models for each team, more variation in poses, special edition models, special edition pitches, cool / better components, etc. You could easily see people spending hundreds and hundreds on that game. Everyone wins. Even GW, who would make money and fans.
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Jan 16, 2015 15:43
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I don't think you look at the specialist games as a huge money maker either. You look at it as the introduction that gets you into their main games that takes almost no effort to support. I don't understand how you don't make money on those when you just update the rules every once in a while and just let people buy whatever models are already available along with the added benefit of getting new customers for you other products. Personally I think the reason they dumped them was a combination of short sighted "they aren't making as much as LOTR so they aren't worth it" along with a fear that if people saw games that were cheaper to play than Fantasy or 40k they would just play those.
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Jan 16, 2015 15:44
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S.J. posted:GW's games are and were hampered by their lovely lack of rules development. The Specialist games' expansion usually came in the form of half-baked "playtest" articles that showed up in the hard-to-find micro magazines dedicated to each game. So a $50 box of interesting models would appear at your LGS, (Amazons, Drmiurge, or whatever) and you'd have no idea what they were supposed to do with them because someone else bought the only issue of Town Crier that month. You make a case for GW never actually having supportied their B-string games, and the failure being more a result of mismanagement than anything else.
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Jan 16, 2015 15:48
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El Estrago Bonito posted:Yeah but companies still make tons of money making board games which use the "buy it once and never again except maybe some expansions" model and it seems to work out pretty well for people like FFG. If FFG were to package up Bloodbowl as it exists right now into a hundred dollar box with four teams worth of minis and then "expansions" that were just the rules for additional teams with a full set of minis people would buy it and it would probably make a decent chunk of change. GW's stuff is still firmly in the 'sell you multiple copies of all of this stuff' camp though. If there were enough minis to fully customize 4 different blood bowl factions, that box would cost you 400 dollars. moths posted:The Specialist games' expansion usually came in the form of half-baked "playtest" articles that showed up in the hard-to-find micro magazines dedicated to each game. This was pretty much always the case, yeah. If you were even lucky enough to know that you needed a specialist magazine to get the rules. It's really no surprise that specialist games stopped making money considering they didn't give you a reason to keep buying the ranges, they just shot themselves right in the foot from the beginning. S.J. fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Jan 16, 2015 |
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Jan 16, 2015 15:48
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Radish posted:I don't think you look at the specialist games as a huge money maker either. You look at it as the introduction that gets you into their main games that takes almost no effort to support. I don't understand how you don't make money on those when you just update the rules every once in a while and just let people buy whatever models are already available along with the added benefit of getting new customers for you other products. Why is Space Hulk some weird limited special edition game instead of an evergreen product? It should be GW's Monopoly or whatever.
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Jan 16, 2015 15:49
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Lightning Lord posted:Why is Space Hulk some weird limited special edition game instead of an evergreen product? It should be GW's Monopoly or whatever. Because gently caress you
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Jan 16, 2015 15:51
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FFG could probably do it for $89, which is (I think) why GW will never let it happen
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Jan 16, 2015 15:51
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S.J. posted:GW's stuff is still firmly in the 'sell you multiple copies of all of this stuff' camp though. If there were enough minis to fully customize 4 different blood bowl factions, that box would cost you 400 dollars. And this is the issue. There really is nothing of note or import separating high end board games from minis games these days. Project Pandora, Zombicide, DUST Tactics, X-Wing, etc all these games would have been firmly considered "minis" games 15 years ago but now they see shelf space with boards games in board game stores, hell the local board game only shop around here even stocks Infinity for some reason. There is really no reason other than a self ascribed label why GW shouldn't be fighting to distribute things like an updated version of Bloodbowl to people who aren't "minis" gamers.
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Jan 16, 2015 16:08
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Every time I look at the lonely space hulk game at my FLGS I look over at imperial assault for what should be expected for a flat $100 nowadays. I can only imagine that even if they didn't make them limited edition before for some awful reason, they'll be hard pressed to move them now that IA both provides a better value and it's Star Wars.
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Jan 16, 2015 16:13
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The good thing about BFG is you can play it for free with Vassal 
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Jan 16, 2015 16:18
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Not a viking posted:Really? Then how come games like Infinity and Malifaux make money? GW could easily get people to buy several teams, introduce new models (skaven plague monks were introduced in fan made rules) and make new, better minis of old models like corvus belli does. Obviously what they should do is to enforce WYSIWYG for models in Necromunda/Mordheim and force players to saw limbs off their models when they get maimed in the game. Lightning Lord posted:Why is Space Hulk some weird limited special edition game instead of an evergreen product? It should be GW's Monopoly or whatever. Because McRib
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Jan 16, 2015 16:24
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Space Hulk is a neat game but it's not worth over a hundred dollars, especially with all of the other board game companies saturating the market with much better products for less money. It pretty much sold on GW nostalgia (it worked on me for their first run) since any rational person seeing it at a game store would never pay out that price for a fairly simple two player game regardless of how many minis it came with. Dread Fleet didn't have that Nostalgia (I knew a lot of people that were turned off when it became clear it wasn't a revamp of Man of War) and the results were clear. A gaming store near me still has the one dusty copy they could never sell. GW can't compete in the board game market because they have no real footing there after abandoning it years ago and their prices are obviously absurd to anyone that hasn't drank the kool-aide. Mange Mite posted:Obviously what they should do is to enforce WYSIWYG for models in Necromunda/Mordheim and force players to saw limbs off their models when they get maimed in the game. I played in a Mordheim league where the guy running it mandated that injuries and new gear had to be represented on the models and it predictably fizzled out after people started getting hurt or upgraded characters.
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Jan 16, 2015 16:24
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serious gaylord posted:Great idea, terrible developer. This is because usually no established developer will agree to the license terms - GW wants a solid cut in terms of royalties plus a fair amount of creative control over the IP. Radish posted:I played in a Mordheim league where the guy running it mandated that injuries and new gear had to be represented on the models and it predictably fizzled out after people started getting hurt or upgraded characters. I was joking but actually a game with multi-part minis you can disassemble/re-assemble and buy different bitz for would be pretty cool
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Jan 16, 2015 16:26
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serious gaylord posted:Would you still buy new if they did all of those things and the used market was still as populous as it is today and the same percentage of price? This discussion was back a page, and I can of course only speak for myself, but: yes. When a brand new box of Space Marines is $40 and a comparable lot of Super Clean bait from ebay is $10, that's a big chunk of change I'm saving by going eBay. When the numbers are $15-25 and $3.75-6.25 instead (NB: these numbers are not asspulled; they are taken from comparable Forge Father units on Mantic's online store) the absolute difference doesn't seem nearly so big anymore. Spending $15 on a box of my bog-standard troop unit feels a lot better than $40. Sure, $3.75 is then really tiny, but $15 no longer feels like I'm getting taken for a rube by buying full price. And when you look at needing, say, 10 of those squads for your army, it's $150 vs. $400. It's down to the point where the extra effort dealing with eBay rescues starts to be not worth it. This is of course only me, and I'm sure that particularly poor or frugal folks would keep buying secondhand--as they should be able to. It also, and this is very important, has a significant customer relations impact. Savvy customers no longer compare the cost of a GW unit to a Mantic unit, or a GW robot to a Bandai robot, and realize that GW is pissing on their legs and telling them it's raining. This has had a bigger impact on my purchasing from GW than the price per se. I mean, I'm a big boy; I'm not 'order an entire army from BTP' rich but I could afford a box of terminators each month. The reason why I don't buy that box is because it makes the bile rise, not because it makes the wallet empty. All the other stuff HiveCommander mentioned also goes into this part of the equation.
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Jan 16, 2015 16:32
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Mange Mite posted:I was joking but actually a game with multi-part minis you can disassemble/re-assemble and buy different bitz for would be pretty cool
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Jan 16, 2015 16:40
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Mange Mite posted:
Yeah that would be really cool. When the Inquisitor skirmish game rumors turned out to be bogus I was sad.
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Jan 16, 2015 16:41
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Mange Mite posted:This is because usually no established developer will agree to the license terms - GW wants a solid cut in terms of royalties plus a fair amount of creative control over the IP. Eh? GWs royalties cut has always been extremely small from what I understand. Mange Mite posted:I was joking but actually a game with multi-part minis you can disassemble/re-assemble and buy different bitz for would be pretty cool http://mobileframezero.com/mfz/
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Jan 16, 2015 16:52
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Just mentioned the idea of picking up Aggro a football (soccer) hooligan skirmish game mentioned in another thread to my Blood Bowl group to use to simulate the hardcore fans of the teams fighting in the stands. Overwhelmingly positive replies. Obviously waiting to see what the actual rules are like. gently caress, is the next step for us then picking up Warhammer Fantasy Battle (if it still exists) to simulate extremely large fantasy style derby riots?
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Jan 16, 2015 17:10
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God no. Ugh. Don't.
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Jan 16, 2015 17:16
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Here's a crazy idea for GW; Adopt the Skylanders method. Sell your miniatures with a one time redeemable key for online use.
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Jan 16, 2015 17:20
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Kaizer88 posted:Here's a crazy idea for GW; Adopt the Skylanders method. Sell your miniatures with a one time redeemable key for online use. The website would cost 40 million pounds and won't be able to tell what country you're from
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Jan 16, 2015 17:21
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If they ever put the rules into videogame form with all the dicerolls automated the players might figure out that they are poo poo
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Jan 16, 2015 17:23
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In the past year I have gotten five BB teams, only two of which were used. Now where I live I am lucky enough to have a vibrant tournament and league BB scene. (As far as know we have no support from GW.) This isn't that unusual for the other 40-50 guys in the area. Specialist games might not have been profitable enough for GW, but they are profitable as judged by the other dozen suppliers that picked up just that game. That is GWs fault, not the games or the fault of the fans.
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Jan 16, 2015 17:30
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No GW does not need to adopt the Skylanders way, seriously that poo poo is cocaine for 8 year olds. I have spent so much loving money on Skylanders for my nephews. I am super surprised we've never seen a Necromunda game.
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Jan 16, 2015 17:35
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Hollismason posted:No GW does not need to adopt the Skylanders way, seriously that poo poo is cocaine for 8 year olds. I have spent so much loving money on Skylanders for my nephews. what is this poo poo, shadowrun for idiots?
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Jan 16, 2015 17:36
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