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lifts cats over head posted:Agreed, for all the flack that Martin gets for his slow process the end result has a lot of depth and isn't just a bunch of Peggy Sue characters advancing from plot point to plot point. To create a narrative that has legions of fans nitpicking over the character actions, as if they were real people, is something pretty remarkable. Gotta be Ramsay. Joffery could at least be civil and charming when it suited him to do so. Also Rast was a pretty tremendous bastard, I forget what he did to be sent to the Wall but I remember it being pretty reprehensible, and then on top of that he leads a mutiny while they're all in a frozen wasteland fighting for survival. What a dick.
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Jan 16, 2015 17:49
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Craster, rapes his daughters, sacrifices his sons. Rather nasty dude.
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Jan 16, 2015 18:36
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lifts cats over head posted:Now on this subject, I think we've established that there aren't any truly "good" characters (Maybe Davos and Brienne) and that most are just varying degrees of morality. On the flipside, now I'm trying to figure out who would be the absolute lowest on the morality scale? Ramsay? Joffrey? The great thing about Martin's characters is that even the evil ones aren't just evil in order to serve as convenient foils. Joffrey is undoubtedly evil, but it's his upbringing that made him that way. He's raised by a mother who hates literally everyone who isn't her child and a father who doesn't give a poo poo about him. Now all of a sudden he's given absolute power over everyone around him - of course he's a vindictive, petty monster. Could he have turned out any other way? Ramsay is like this in a way - disowned by his father (who actually raped his mother) and raised by a (rightfully) spiteful victim of sexual abuse. The only way for him to better his lot in life is to kill Roose's other children, and his mother teaches him this from the cradle. Even Gregor, arguably the most evil of all of them, is subject to constant crippling headaches and fits of uncontrollable pain. He lashes out at everyone to make them share in his pain? Of course he does, he's 8 feet tall in a world where might really does make right. None of these circumstances "justify" their bad deeds, but it does allow the reader to at least understand and to some extent empathize with them.
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Jan 16, 2015 19:21
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timp posted:Gotta be Ramsay. Joffery could at least be civil and charming when it suited him to do so. Also Rast was a pretty tremendous bastard, I forget what he did to be sent to the Wall but I remember it being pretty reprehensible, and then on top of that he leads a mutiny while they're all in a frozen wasteland fighting for survival. What a dick. Nitpicking here but Rast in the books has nothing to do with the mutiny. He's a dick to Sam in Book 1 but he stays at Castle Black and ends up dying in the raid. The mutiny beyond the wall was fomented by other guys including Chett, who lost his job to Sam. Of course the show was different just for the sake of economy, probably. Anyways my vote would go to Gregor's men (e.g. Raff, the Tickler) or the Brave Companions as the cruelest and shittiest people so far.
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Jan 16, 2015 19:43
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The lord that tried to grab Pips cock.
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Jan 16, 2015 19:47
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colonel_korn posted:Nitpicking here but Rast in the books has nothing to do with the mutiny. He's a dick to Sam in Book 1 but he stays at Castle Black and ends up dying in the raid. The mutiny beyond the wall was fomented by other guys including Chett, who lost his job to Sam. Of course the show was different just for the sake of economy, probably. Dang, I was afraid I was naming of the wrong guy, but Chett is who I was thinking of; the one with the prologue chapter trying to kill Sam.
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Jan 16, 2015 19:54
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The dothraki actually have no redeeming qualities short of 'cultural relativism' arguments, they don't even have their own art or any form of cultural permanence, Khal Drogo's sole redeeming quality is that he actually fell in love with the extremely beautiful child sex-slave he purchased, so he was perhaps a giant poo poo as well.
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Jan 16, 2015 20:03
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I think one of the most terrifying things about Ramsay, Joff and Gregor is how believable they are. Look at Albert Fish and Ted Bundy for example. Fish and Bundy never believed they were bad people due to their upbringing and mental health issues, they saw themselves as decent people while everyone else was wrong. Ramsay, Joff and Gregor all have clear mental problems to some degree. Joff killing cats is certainly George doing his research as that's something serial killers usually do at that age, Cersei also never punished him for anything and told him he is right no matter what, Robert didn't give Joff the time of day nor did Jaime. Gregor having huge headaches and never being told off about anything bad he ever did by his dad also contributed to the man he became, he also only ever gets good stuff when he terrorizes people. Ramsay was hosed, he got brainwashed by his ruined mother and got told who his father was and what he could become, plus having Reek as your tutor will never help with anything while also being the product of rape. None of this justifies anything they do but you can see why they are the people they became, they are raised to be hateful and have never had anyone tell them off for it. Look at all of our horrible people in history almost all of them had terrible childhoods/upbringings/educations that make them have hosed up morals and justifications. emanresu tnuocca posted:The dothraki actually have no redeeming qualities short of 'cultural relativism' arguments, they don't even have their own art or any form of cultural permanence, Khal Drogo's sole redeeming quality is that he actually fell in love with the extremely beautiful child sex-slave he purchased, so he was perhaps a giant poo poo as well. They don't believe in shedding swords in their city and they are more democratic than all of Westeros. 
BillBear fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Jan 16, 2015 |
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Jan 16, 2015 20:19
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emanresu tnuocca posted:The dothraki actually have no redeeming qualities short of 'cultural relativism' arguments, they don't even have their own art or any form of cultural permanence, Khal Drogo's sole redeeming quality is that he actually fell in love with the extremely beautiful child sex-slave he purchased, so he was perhaps a giant poo poo as well. At least they have Vaes Dothrak which helps to redeem in some small part There's a bit of civility there since wielding weapons and spilling blood is illegal, and there's tons of culture due to all of the monuments
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Jan 16, 2015 20:22
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The only thing that I can think of is that the dosh khaleen are respected as political/religious leaders in Vaes Dothrak. On the other hand, it is a compulsory position that ex-Khaleesis are forced into unless they are Daenerys. Not even the 'no murdering' rule works, since the technical law is only 'don't spill blood'. Drogo famously showed a way to circumvent that. In It For The Tank fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Jan 16, 2015 |
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Jan 16, 2015 20:26
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Hexel posted:The lord that tried to grab Pips cock. Basically this. Most of the evil poo poo the characters do is a consequence of the power structure. That's not just the evil unaccountable nobility either. Bronn is a very nasty character but we forgive him because he's charming and because he's a mercenary, that his skill with murder is useful to the nobility doesn't actually excuse the evil things he does. The mob that raped Lolly until her mind broke were undoubtedly evil, that they were starving and furious and had a brief moment of power might explain the rape but it doesn't excuse it. I would still put Ramsay on a different level to the others though. Joffrey is basically a spoiled brat archetype, but Ramsay could end up leading the white walkers and it would feel believable. Hell he's already married an Other, he's halfway to being the Night King already.
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Jan 16, 2015 22:08
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When did Jeyne Poole become an Other?
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Jan 16, 2015 22:26
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PresidentBeard posted:When did Jeyne Poole become an Other? She's not actually Arya, she's another girl. An Other girl. I don't have my copy of the book to hand but the descriptions of her at the wedding are also full of cold, corpse-like imagery. I'm not saying she's literally an ice zombie, but I think the symbolism may have been deliberate. There's also the fae-like elements about Ramsay, that Roose chased a fox through a liminal forest to meet his mother, ritualistic shagging under a hanging corpse, Ramsay killing the other son to take his place like a changeling, his inhuman malevolence, the supernatural blizzard around circumstances he is a pivotal part of, he is even the monster a princess in a tower needs rescuing from. Narratively he is also a spare part to the Stannis/Roose conflict, that would come into play only when that is resolved and when, coincidentally, the white walkers become a pressing issue. Ramsay becoming, or always having been, a supernatural evil or at least a reflection of one is a pet theory of mine basically. I was being a bit bait saying he literally married an Other.
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Jan 16, 2015 22:57
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There's all kinds of cool Fae stuff that GRRM has inserted into events occurring in the North, but I missed the all that about Ramsey's birth. Nice catch.
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Jan 16, 2015 23:01
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While we're on the subject: I'll point people to the Winterfell Huis Clos here, since its analysis of the mythological and thematic imagery of the series is pretty much the best part of it.
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Jan 16, 2015 23:05
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Dalael posted:Somewhere along those lines, Legolas would probably appear as well because at this point, why the gently caress not. Somebody really should write a grand fantasy book that just pulls in random characters from other stories, a la Patton Oswalt's Star Wars concept: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BBhNkywMJY Don't explain anything, just have Legolas show up for no reason, and have the other characters just know who he is. Like a bad fan fiction mish-mash, but well written.
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Jan 16, 2015 23:38
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:Somebody really should write a grand fantasy book that just pulls in random characters from other stories, a la Patton Oswalt's Star Wars concept: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BBhNkywMJY That was loving hilarious. I still think Pat Oswalt's version is probably better than what Disney will come up with. I shuddered a bit when I heard someone shouts: No way! Kids are not gonna like this! I am so afraid that this will be Disney executive's thinking: It must appeal to kids.
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Jan 16, 2015 23:57
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Vitamin P posted:Bronn is a very nasty character but we forgive him because he's charming and because he's a mercenary, that his skill with murder is useful to the nobility doesn't actually excuse the evil things he does. I excuse him because he's honest and, with the exception of euthanizing his mortally wounded partner in the Vale, everyone I recall him killing has been in a fair fight. rydiafan fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 00:19
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rydiafan posted:I excuse him because he's honest and, with the exception of euthanizing his mortally wounded partner, everyone he's ever killed has been in a fair fight. Pretty sure that when he personally ordered the Goldcloaks to murder every person that nicks poo poo, or may be suspected of nicking poo poo, that wasn't a fair fight. Killing inconvenient nobles and playing it was accident isn't terribly honest either.
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Jan 17, 2015 00:29
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Vitamin P posted:Pretty sure that when he personally ordered the Goldcloaks to murder every person that nicks poo poo, or may be suspected of nicking poo poo, that wasn't a fair fight. Enacting martial law under the command of The Hand was his job. Also, he didn't kill those people. Vitamin P posted:Killing inconvenient nobles and playing it was accident isn't terribly honest either. Remind me what you're talking about.
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Jan 17, 2015 00:40
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Probably the thing with the Stokeworth castle, which was an off-screen occurrence to highlight Cersei's stupidity.
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Jan 17, 2015 03:03
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Bronn kills Ser Balman in a fair duel, which was instigated by Ser Balman.
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Jan 17, 2015 03:42
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colonel_korn posted:Nitpicking here but Rast in the books has nothing to do with the mutiny. He's a dick to Sam in Book 1 but he stays at Castle Black and ends up dying in the raid. The mutiny beyond the wall was fomented by other guys including Chett, who lost his job to Sam. Of course the show was different just for the sake of economy, probably. I can guarantee they gave Rast the additional screen time because the actor they picked looked so goddamned skeevy and weird, you KNOW he was doing more than just some raping and stealing bread.
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Jan 17, 2015 03:51
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emanresu tnuocca posted:The dothraki actually have no redeeming qualities short of 'cultural relativism' arguments, they don't even have their own art or any form of cultural permanence, Khal Drogo's sole redeeming quality is that he actually fell in love with the extremely beautiful child sex-slave he purchased, so he was perhaps a giant poo poo as well. In the books, where Daenerys is only 13 at the beginning, it's made clear that Khal Drogo PREFERS very young girls - Viserys (I think) was concerned that Daenerys might not be mature enough to be an attractive bride and Illyrio reassures him that Drogo has a thing for young girls.
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Jan 17, 2015 04:49
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Dalael posted:Holy poo poo, you need to stop drinking the coolaid dude... Is reading comprehension really that difficult? I never said he anticipated anything. Jamie isn't a greenseer. wtf are you talking about. I said he did it to save his sister's life in response to someone saying Tyrion's actions were different to Jaime's because Tyrion did it for other people. Jaime didn't throw Bran out of the tower to save himself, he did it to save Cersei. Who IS ANOTHER PERSON. Then I talked about the implications of his decision versus the implications of Tyrions decision. It is possible for someone to say something, and then say something else and not have them completely thematically connected on every level. Dalael posted:In the same line of thinking as you just did, if Jaime and Cercei hadn't been loving, the events that led to Robert's death would never have happened. He would have continued drinking and whoring himself in an early grave, would have bankrupted the kingdom. The bank of Bravoos would have allied with the white walkers and sent a bunch of pygme slave to take down the wall brick by brick allowing the walkers to pour over the border. Unicorns from some other fantasy book would have said gently caress YOU and leaped from one book to another to come and help with the defense of the kingdom. Somewhere along those lines, Legolas would probably appear as well because at this point, why the gently caress not. There's no evidence for this anywhere. Robert's death was his own hubris, it had nothing to do with Jaime and Cersei. Cersei didn't even initiate a plan to kill him. He was already gone by the time she realized she might have to kill Robert. The white walkers don't ally with the living, the most they do is leave some people(eg Craster) alone. The other stuff you are saying is complete nonsense. Legolas isn't even a character in Game of Thrones. Did you really read all the books, but can't follow a simple chain of events? I find that hard to believe. Also her name is Cersei. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Cersei_Lannister Also I don't understand your statement on unicorns. There is evidence in a Jon Snow chapter that Shaggydog kills a unicorn in books 4/5. Furthermore the Skagosi ride them, and horns have been brought to the citadel and compared to narwhal horns and shown to be quite different in structure by a number of maesters. Why would they have to come from another fantasy book? Regardless; 1. Bran was thrown out of the tower but was still alive. 2. Maester Luwin said that if he recovered he would be paralyzed. So Robert made a comment that he would be better off dead than a cripple. 3. Joffrey upon hearing this comment, wanting to prove himself to his father in a dumb way, hired a footpad to kill Bran. The footpad fails and leaves a valyrian steel dagger and makes Catelyn suspect a larger plot where there was none. 4. Following the information on the dagger, Catelyn goes to kings landing following the information, and there she meets Petyr Baelish who lies to her saying the dagger is Tyrion's. 5. Based on Petyr's bad information she kidnaps Tyrion and takes him to the Vale. 6. Because Tyrion was taken by a Tully, Tywin invades the Riverlands. Do you see how event 1, directly causes event 2? If Bran didn't fall out of a tower Robert wouldn't say he was better off dead. Do you see how event 2 leads to event 3? Do I have to hold your hand through all of this? If event 1 caused event 2, and event 2 caused event 3 then if event 1 never happened, neither would event 3. This continues on down. If Bran did not live Tywin would not invade the Riverlands, because there would be no point to it. Similarly there is a second chain of events that is related: 1. Robert dies. 2. Eddard upon Robert's death tries to take control of the realm. 3. He fails, is outplayed and imprisoned. 4. *not directly relevant to the book's chain of events* Joffrey ascends the throne and declares his Grandfather Tywin Lannister Hand of the King. However Tywin is tied up in the Riverlands and can not come straight away. 5. After many months in the black cells, Eddard consents upon Varys urging to confess. 6. Eddard is to be sent to the wall however Joffrey does not go with the plan and orders the execution. If we break the first chain of event's then none of the events will follow. Because the first chain is broken then something interesting happens to the 2nd chain of events. Tywin is no longer fighting a war. At about the same time the news arrives in Winterfell that Eddard has been arrested the news will also arrive to Tywin that Eddard has been arrested and that he has been appointed hand of the king. In order to do anything about it Robb would still have to raise his banners from across a large swath of land and then march all the way south. Tywin simply has to gather together a small cohort and ride to kings landing, which judging from his personality, he would certainly do with due haste. During the execution no one but Cersei really had the authority or the power to force Joffrey to back down. As evidenced by Tywin's later actions with regards to Joffrey as well as his opinion of Eddard's death he would certainly have put a stop to the execution. And clearly would arrived there easily before the execution given the events that are not part of the chain of event's unleashed by Jaime throwing Bran from the tower. I hope this was helpful and you are now able to follow the progression of events in the first book and how they relate to each other.
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Jan 17, 2015 07:57
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Legolas is a merman sorry you weren't paying attention nerd.
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Jan 17, 2015 09:29
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Vitamin P posted:Ramsay becoming, or always having been, a supernatural evil or at least a reflection of one is a pet theory of mine basically. I was being a bit bait saying he literally married an Other. I fell in love with your changeling interpretation as I read it. I've always thought that either Roose Bolton or Stannis - the two men perpetually described as cold and hard - would end up leading the Others south or having some relationship to the Night's King or something. Stannis is going to die in the North, without claiming a throne, and worse, it's going to be after finding out that Melisandre (who he's sacrificed everything and violated every principle of honor to follow) has made a mistake and is now convinced, probably rightly so, that Jon is Azor Ahai. I was convinced that whoever wins the battle between Stannis and the Boltons is going to end up seeing and being besieged by the vanguard of the Others. But you're right, Ramsay's backstory and capriciously cruel personality has supernatural overtones too, down to the description offered in this thread of his upbringing; I can't imagine his mother as anything other than a witch. And what the gently caress was up with the original Reek? All I know at this point is that some real bad poo poo is gonna go down in the North by the end of Book 6.
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Jan 17, 2015 14:38
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rydiafan posted:I excuse him because he's honest and, with the exception of euthanizing his mortally wounded partner in the Vale, everyone I recall him killing has been in a fair fight. What about that singer Bronn kills and has made into stew on Tyrion's orders?
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Jan 17, 2015 15:49
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Grendels Dad posted:What about that singer Bronn kills and has made into stew on Tyrion's orders? feeding the poor is pretty saintly tbh
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Jan 17, 2015 16:41
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Grendels Dad posted:What about that singer Bronn kills and has made into stew on Tyrion's orders? Nobody likes bards so it is a service to society.
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Jan 17, 2015 16:55
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 Just wow. edit: lol Phenotype fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 16:59
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Guys stop impugning Jaime's honor and integrity in saving the world by throwing a kid out a window. Come on, yall.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:23
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This is the passage that most makes me see Jeyne as potentially representing an Other by the way "The hearth was caked with cold black ash, the room unheated but for candles. Every time a door opened their flames would sway and shiver. The bride was shivering too. They had dressed her in white lambs-wool trimmed with lace. Her sleeves and bodice were sewn with freshwater pearls, and on her feet were white doeskin slippers—pretty, but not warm. Her face was pale, bloodless. A face carved of ice, Theon Greyjoy thought as he draped a fur-trimmed cloak about her shoulders. A corpse buried in the snow." Obviously it's also communicating that she's a bride, vulnerable, terrified, Winterfell is cold etc but it still seems a very specific description to me.
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Jan 17, 2015 19:39
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When did Shaggydog eat a unicorn? Must've missed it
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Jan 17, 2015 20:20
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COOKIEMONSTER posted:
 COOKIEMONSTER posted:Also I don't understand your statement on unicorns. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation COOKIEMONSTER posted:The other stuff you are saying is complete nonsense. 
Dalael fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 20:34
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Calaveron posted:When did Shaggydog eat a unicorn? Must've missed it Jon has a warg dream in ADWD of Shaggydog battling a giant one-horned hairy goat thing. For a long time, people assumed that that was just wolf-speak for a unicorn, since Skagos is said to be home to unicorns. However, the World of Ice and Fire book elaborates on the unicorns of Skagos and reveals that said unicorns actually are just one-horned goats like this:  There might actually be real unicorns somewhere (Leaf makes reference to them, and you'd think a Child would know that kind of thing), but we haven't seen any yet.
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Jan 17, 2015 20:37
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You can't follow the connection between Tyrion being kidnapped and Tywin invading the riverlands? Like he's going to just make invade at random with no real purpose or point and there's no connection whatsoever? Well I guess this "conversation" is over. Good luck dealing with reality, you're going to have a hard time of it.
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Jan 18, 2015 00:32
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MrBims posted:Guys stop impugning Jaime's honor and integrity in saving the world by throwing a kid out a window. Come on, yall. If you could go back in time and kill Hitler by throwing a kid out a window onto him, would you do it?
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Jan 18, 2015 00:41
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COOKIEMONSTER posted:You can't follow the connection between Tyrion being kidnapped and Tywin invading the riverlands? Like he's going to just make invade at random with no real purpose or point and there's no connection whatsoever? Well I guess this "conversation" is over. Good luck dealing with reality, you're going to have a hard time of it. I'm just jerking your chain dude. You replied a serious answer to my unicorn/legolas comment and I just thought it was hilarious. On a serious note, yes the chain of events are all linked, and GRRM makes it rather obvious. But it has always left me the impression, that Tywin couldn't give a poo poo that Tyrion was captured. He probably had been waiting for an excuse for a long time. and Tyrion getting captured gave him the pretext he needed. Remember that by that point, Robert's rule on the kingdom is very weak and Tywin had most likely been bidding his time, just like he did with the Targaryans after he gave away the office of King's Hand and left to Casterly Rock. Lycus posted:If you could go back in time and kill Hitler by throwing a kid out a window onto him, would you do it? No. As bad as it was back then, we don't know how things might have turned out. Its hard to imagine that it could have been worse, but then I would point out to Mao in China or Stalin in Russia... Dalael fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 00:43
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In It For The Tank posted:However, the World of Ice and Fire book elaborates on the unicorns of Skagos and reveals that said unicorns actually are just one-horned goats Traditional Unicorns (like the one on the British royal seal) where actually depicted as goat/horse hybrids; I think the Skagos unicorns are the real ones.
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Jan 18, 2015 01:49
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