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kalstrams posted:Photo from Odessa: http://timer.od.ua/news/vzriv_na_troitskoy_oboshlos_bez_postradavshih_562.html Fortunately, no one was hurt. The intentions of the bombers so far seem to be to cause material damage/send a message rather than cause casualties, but obviously they're still scumbag terrorists and no one likes them.
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Jan 17, 2015 02:29
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Crowsbeak posted:Can you explain to me why the obstensible left wing party isn't siding with the strikers. While the right wing party is? The ostensible left wing party is a front for corrupt oligarchs and their buddies. Their leader is, policy-wise, one of the rightmost figures on the political scene, what with supporting flat tax, war, fast-track privatization and CIA torture prisons. Did I mention that they're corrupt? Because holy poo poo are they incredibly corrupt, their time in government was the heyday of high-level bribery, graft and wholesale looting of state assets. Also, one important thing to remember is that "right" and "left" are still less policy descriptions than "which side you were on in the 80's". This is losing importance as time goes on, but it's still a factor. The biggest miners' union (although not the only one involved) is NSZZ Solidarnosc, successor to the original movement known for helping topple communism. Since the so-called "left-wing" consists primarily of former members of the Communist Party, they're understandably sour about the whole thing. These days Solidarnosc is actually fairly right-wing, again in that local sense: in Poland, hardline national-conservatism isn't all free-markety, but rather distrustful of privatization and deregulation, although more on "national interest"/anti-corruption grounds than anything welfare-related. PiS, the right-wing opposition, claims the heritage of the more hardcore wing of Solidarity, and also tends to draw support from poorer regions like Silesia rather than rich cities like Warsaw. Add in a hefty dose of opportunism riding on anti-government sentiment, and it's a sadly natural fit in its own way. (and yes, this does put us leftist voters in a lovely, lovely place, because the only significant politicians who loudly side with workers and labor unions and oppose welfare cuts are also theocratic reactionaries, whereas anyone remotely progressive on social issues is also usually super neoliberal)
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Jan 17, 2015 03:18
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Crowsbeak posted:Can you explain to me why the obstensible left wing party isn't siding with the strikers. While the right wing party is? If you meant PO, I meant "liberal" as it's understood in Europe - which means pro-free market and progressive in social issues. SLD, the officially social-democratic party, abandoned the workers completely, up to the point where their leader tried to introduce flat income tax when he was the Prime Minister. There are no significant left-wing parties in Poland right now. Many of the workers turned to nationalist right (such as PiS), because they were the ones most opposed to dismantlement of social safety net. Given that the parliamentary and presidential elections are taking place this year, Kaczyński most likely tries to gain some new electorate. Unfortunately, it's unlikely to be a long-term tendency. He did exactly the same thing during 2011 elections when he tried presenting himself as a left-wing politician and went fully batshit again after elections he (barely) lost.
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Jan 17, 2015 03:20
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On the other news: Russian culture ministry moves to ban films that undermine 'national unity'. In response to that Yevgeny Savostyanov, the head of Russia's Coordination Council on Intellectual Property Protection, said in an open letter that he was "ashamed" of Culture Minister Vladimir Medinsky and no longer wished to work with his ministry. http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russian-culture-ministry-moves-to-ban-films-that-undermine-national-unity/514440.html http://www.rferl.org/content/top-russian-official-ashames-of-culture-crackdown/26795559.html This year seems quite bad for your average russian. Besides the failing economy it seems like that Russian society is accelerating from authoritarian state to full dictatorship, which is trying to legitimize itself with "external" enemies and looking to the soviet era. For example WW2 has turned into a religious cult according to sociologist Igor Eidman http://www.kasparov.ru/material.php?id=54B2956C6D71E 
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Jan 17, 2015 09:11
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Hey ya'll, check out the army Dacia; deadly yet affordable  
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Jan 17, 2015 09:18
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Crowsbeak posted:Can you explain to me why the obstensible left wing party isn't siding with the strikers. While the right wing party is? Left and right means nothing once you get above country level and I honestly believe we should just stop using those terms unless we're debating politics in a country where everyone knows and understands the situation and is essentially on the same page. SLD likes markets, because it has a lot of friends in business (many of whom used to be Communist Party members who bought state enterprises on the cheap and then developed them) and they're used to saying things they don't believe in to get some sweet, sweet cash money. PiS likes strikers, because they like big, nice Catholic families, believe those families need welfare, and if so, well, let's give everyone welfare. They also like saying things they probably won't do, because they like votes, which can then be exchanged for some sweet, sweet power. PO is in the middle: it hates the strikers, because they oppose it and make it seem like maybe someone else could rule the country for a while, and they can't have that, because they like that sweet, sweet power and the sweet, sweet money that comes with it. Also, I believe someone should maybe prepare a real plan for closing the mines at last, because that poo poo is really long past overdue.
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Jan 17, 2015 11:15
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https://twitter.com/olliecarroll Looks like bad news from the airport 
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Jan 17, 2015 11:56
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Somaen posted:https://twitter.com/olliecarroll That's not good.  https://twitter.com/tweetsNV/status/556422927563112448
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Jan 17, 2015 14:00
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I can't imagine what hell this place must be.
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Jan 17, 2015 14:23
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Full video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2dsVMpyL40 Seeing things like this beg the question once again: Why is there almost no western (especially American) news coverage of this? Even in Syria American agencies had embedded reporters.
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Jan 17, 2015 15:35
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sparatuvs posted:Full video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2dsVMpyL40 Because Russians will probably try to shoot any reporters they spot?
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Jan 17, 2015 15:37
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sparatuvs posted:Full video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2dsVMpyL40 There's some freelancers but honestly, despite the insane narrative and Alamo-like comparisons, it can't upend coverage of France or whatever else is dominating the news cycle at the moment.
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Jan 17, 2015 16:11
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Do we have any idea what role the US played in maiden square protests? Were the leaked Clinton phone calls red herrings or what?
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Jan 17, 2015 17:35
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Wee Tinkle Wand posted:Because Russians will probably try to shoot any reporters they spot? Russians: more likely to murder western journalists than ISIS
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Jan 17, 2015 17:47
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Miltank posted:Do we have any idea what role the US played in maiden square protests? Were the leaked Clinton phone calls red herrings or what? Weren't those phone calls just along the lines of "we support your endeavor for democracy"
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Jan 17, 2015 17:50
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Miltank posted:Do we have any idea what role the US played in maiden square protests? Were the leaked Clinton phone calls red herrings or what? There is currently no evidence of any serious US involvement in Euromaidan.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:10
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waitwhatno posted:There is currently no evidence of any serious US involvement in Euromaidan. Could I get a good source on this? I know I'm pushing a rock up a hill by arguing with a Russian "leftist" on this matter but he's pretty drat insistent that the US was totally trying to get the Ukraine to rebel and join NATO and that the whole thing is some deep cover OP by the CIA, citing Geroge Friedman, Yakov Kedmi, Carl Gershman, Hilary Clinton, Nuland, McCain, John Brennan, and Joseph Biden as evidence of western conspiracy. It's just a deluge of links that I don't have the capability of refuting each point on and there are some uninformed people taking his side slowly because my "evidence" isn't strong enough. He was just recently parroting the "It was definitely a mine that destroyed the bus, not the grad attack", attempts to reduce the argument to "you support neonazis", and assertions that Ukraine doesn't want peace, will join NATO, shells their own cities, etc. I am literally being ostracized from a forum community because hes successfully painting me as some kind of right-wing extremist for not toeing the Russian state media line.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:23
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Tevery Best posted:Also, I believe someone should maybe prepare a real plan for closing the mines at last, because that poo poo is really long past overdue. This is true but right now the strikers are more or less in the right. A proper plan is needed, but one that does it gradually over a long period of time and actually tries to replace the lost jobs. Meanwhile the government has hit the panic button and is going "SHUT IT ALL DOWN NOW" which would obviously gently caress Silesia up for decades due to the domino effect. I have no idea what the hell they expected other than huge strikes. The defense of "well the miners can all retrain for different stuff and get new jobs" is completely laughable outside of some old-school Protestant understanding of economics as a system of divine reward and punishment for individuals. The unions can be irrationally stubborn at times, but in this case the gubmint just put a gun to their head with no long-term plan. Plus there's the whole ridiculous media hate circus painting miners as lazy fat cats who swim in taxpayer money and unearned privileges like "retiring early so you don't die before sixty of black lung (maybe)". I can totally understand why they're pissed. Guildencrantz fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 18:53
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You won't be able to prove that the USA wasn't behind it, all you will ever be able to show is that the groups that did participate (a few pro-EU liberals and a shitload of far right nationalists) had domestic reasons for occupying the square and fighting the government.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:54
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Little hint: US doesn't have the power to get people to face beatings, water cannons in way below zero, and then bullets, and to get hundreds thousands of people on the street. Only people's own courage and love for their country can.
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Jan 17, 2015 19:25
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FaustianQ posted:Could I get a good source on this? I know I'm pushing a rock up a hill by arguing with a Russian "leftist" on this matter but he's pretty drat insistent that the US was totally trying to get the Ukraine to rebel and join NATO and that the whole thing is some deep cover OP by the CIA, citing Geroge Friedman, Yakov Kedmi, Carl Gershman, Hilary Clinton, Nuland, McCain, John Brennan, and Joseph Biden as evidence of western conspiracy. It's just a deluge of links that I don't have the capability of refuting each point on and there are some uninformed people taking his side slowly because my "evidence" isn't strong enough.
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Jan 17, 2015 19:27
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If you invented a time machine and took him back to that time to show him every major player's actions prior to maidan events, he still won't believe it.
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Jan 17, 2015 19:29
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Russian MLRS Grad in Donetsk. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQJvBOyi9ps Another video showing a Russian Grad operating in a neighborhood. https://vine.co/v/OjvrIzWIFlj This video shows a substation being hit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FA8FqL_m9wI This is from Facebook. Sigint is being used to jam communications. quote:Very briefly, the connection -rare poo poo, jammed. At 20:00 the WCT. HUGE PUBES A PLUS fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 20:03
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Apparently someone made a list over the tanks that are vacationing in Ukraine. http://sled-vzayt.livejournal.com/1730.html
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Jan 17, 2015 20:05
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kalstrams posted:Proving that "powerful political X has absolutely not been involved in a political event Y" is akin to fighting a windmill. Arguing in a good faith to a constructive end will most likely be impossible - it will mostly either entertain or engage them, depending on whether if their stance is a gimmick or a real one. My advice would be just to let it go, argument does not seem to be able to turn out into something that will not be a waste of time, unless it is vital for you to avoid shunning in that particular community. If the latter is the case, well, that's very unfortunate since the only option will be to spend lots of time to refute every single link they post, any time and every time, while also pointing out every factual inaccuracy and any fallacies they fell for. More than that, the burden of proof should fall on the person claiming that the US/Europe were behind Maidan.
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Jan 17, 2015 20:07
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Live feed of Donetsk Airport. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRujbSn6pUU
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Jan 17, 2015 20:10
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Keep in mind that the Victoria Nuland 'involvement' stems from a time she brought pastries/cookies to Maidan protestors. Crazy anti imperialist faux leftists have somehow drawn this out to a vast State Department conspiracy. The Hunter Biden thing is pretty lovely and corrupt, though. But correlation, causation, etc.
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Jan 17, 2015 20:16
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sparatuvs posted:Full video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2dsVMpyL40 I think it's because we've spent a very long time engaged in the Middle East, and the Syrian poo poo started shortly (lol alliteration) after Obama began pulling Americans out of there. Every time it looks like the American government is going to do anything involving Syria or take a side in the fight, the media whips itself into a frenzy about whether or not we're about to see a repeat of Iraq/Afghanistan in a new theater. A lot of people don't want to see us repeat that level of bullshit, and there's still some warhawks who wants us to send in the drones and solve everything in the desert with maximum force immediately. And of course, the Syrian fight involves a ton of Muslims and every footage of the battles sees the rebels shouting "Allahu Akbar" in response to literally almost anything that happens (good or bad), which reminds everyone of the insurgents and terrorists who shout the same thing and inadvertently make the FSA look like just another bunch of radical Islamists for the right-wing to scream about. So even though we're not actually sending soldiers into Syria, its similarities to the last conflicts we were involved in and coming so soon on their heels makes people on both sides jumpy. It's still relevant to us. On the other hand, the Ukrainian conflict is predominately domestic and the only thing that's really relevant to most people would be Russia's involvement. Even then, not everyone is aware of or cares about Putin wanting to build himself an empire out of former Soviet states. Maybe it's because the western world hasn't had any extremist Czarist terrorists screaming in Russian while gunning everyone down? There's not as much direct, palpable fear and relevancy to an Eastern European country shooting itself.
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Jan 17, 2015 20:16
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Press agencies, and the US government, are concerned about what Russia, its propaganda machine, and people who believe its propaganda machine can do with reporters they can present as "western".
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Jan 17, 2015 20:18
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waitwhatno posted:There is currently no evidence of any serious US involvement in Euromaidan. Pretty much this, in material terms, but there' some finesse to it. The way the US can exert a lot influence cheaply is pretty simple: we let protestors know that if the current government gets overthrown we'll quickly recognize the new one as legitimate and encourage other countries to do the same. As for the old government, people are being willfully obtuse when they refuse to see the distinction between "we don't care if something bad happens to you" and "we're actively masterminding a plot against you." The real story is Russia: they refused to fully back Yanukovitch to the hilt when he needed it because they saw him (correctly) as unpopular, corrupt, and politically unreliable. They gave him a few advisors and let him make use of their propaganda network, but when he tried to push the big red "send in the Russian Paratroopers" button on his desk, nothing happened.
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Jan 17, 2015 20:30
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Rincewinds posted:Apparently someone made a list over the tanks that are vacationing in Ukraine. That's some great "Brown Moses" style comparison/identification work. If it's one thing Russia got plenty of its aging tanks that are finding themselves on the retirement list as the Armata T-14 is supposed to start coming out this year/next year, so whatever they can't sell off to the likes of Syria finds a steady pension inside Ukraine.
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Jan 17, 2015 20:37
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Guildencrantz posted:The ostensible left wing party is a front for corrupt oligarchs and their buddies. Their leader is, policy-wise, one of the rightmost figures on the political scene, what with supporting flat tax, war, fast-track privatization and CIA torture prisons. Did I mention that they're corrupt? Because holy poo poo are they incredibly corrupt, their time in government was the heyday of high-level bribery, graft and wholesale looting of state assets. Well in such a case I would ask myself, who do I vote for hurts people more? I mean theocratic poo poo heads are bad and gays shouldn't face persecution, but should people freeze to death because the recently privatized power company cut them off? Should seniors starve because they have to choose between food and medication? Tevery Best posted:Left and right means nothing once you get above country level and I honestly believe we should just stop using those terms unless we're debating politics in a country where everyone knows and understands the situation and is essentially on the same page. Actually this is something I have personally been arguing for for a long time. In fact I would say politics occupies a sphere with three parts, Equality, Order, and Liberty. Poles don't have a party that represents equality. (Although most countries do not any more). So that leaves you with the question if you cannot have equality, do you want authoritarians or a bunch of people who want to open the floodgates for foreigners to violate the economy? Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 21:12
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By the way, yesterday Steam has stopped selling games in Crimea and today Crimean coders got blocked on developer.apple.com.quote:Dear Vladimir,
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Jan 17, 2015 21:29
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Crowsbeak posted:Well in such a case I would ask myself, who do I vote for hurts people more? I mean theocratic poo poo heads are bad and gays shouldn't face persecution, but should people freeze to death because the recently privatized power company cut them off? Should seniors starve because they have to choose between food and medication? It's not that simple. Mainly because there's no reason to trust the right to actually follow through on their economic stuff, they're likely straight up lying to get votes. The only reason they don't like privatization is because they're statist and hate the accompanying corruption (also protectionist so foreign buyers are extra bad), but for the most part they're just populists and completely clueless about economic policy; to them, it's completely secondary to "moral renewal". Last time they were in power, they nominated a hardcore neoliberal for finance minister, cut inheritance tax and abolished the highest tax bracket, while their only welfare expansion was to throw a pitiful sum at each newborn kid as part of their "MAKE MORE BABBY" ticket and some healthcare investments. They're likely to just run the economy into the ground through sheer incompetence rather than any ideological fervor. Also, forget gays, PiS even have a special parliamentary committee for preparing anti-atheism legislation. I'm not gonna vote to be persecuted, thanks. (I'm also not gonna vote for free marketeers so I generally just draw something rude on the ballot. Probably gonna go with Dickbutt this year)
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Jan 17, 2015 21:45
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So does it sound like the Donetsk airport is on its last legs? Since the "ceasefire" has only really translated to Ukraine stopping its offensives, letting the separatists group up and attack where they like, I suppose it's somewhat inevitable. It's not like the forces there can gain any forward progress or advance into Donetsk. I suppose maybe it's been a meatgrinder for Russian forces but the Ukrainians have paid a high price as well.
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Jan 17, 2015 21:47
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Another Facebook post from Yury Biryukov claiming 64 Russians were killed. quote:And while we have helped to stabilize the 3 heavy, crawled past another grupki our friends. And how to start ironing out there ... We have not seen, but qualitatively heard. And then separable radio grunting issued about 64,200-ies. Oh, we did not have to touch it, oh it was not necessary.
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Jan 17, 2015 22:04
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Dolash posted:So does it sound like the Donetsk airport is on its last legs? Since the "ceasefire" has only really translated to Ukraine stopping its offensives, letting the separatists group up and attack where they like, I suppose it's somewhat inevitable. It's not like the forces there can gain any forward progress or advance into Donetsk. I suppose maybe it's been a meatgrinder for Russian forces but the Ukrainians have paid a high price as well. It's possible that they are actually taking the appropriate measures (including stuff likw seuciring routes and having reinforcements actually go into Donetsk) right now, but otherwise: yes.
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Jan 17, 2015 22:28
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Just wrote a post on a couple of new photos of the Buk that probably shot down MH17 we dug up, which you can read here. I had the following video put together to make it nice and visual https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVl_wY7glSk
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Jan 17, 2015 22:37
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Guildencrantz posted:It's not that simple. Mainly because there's no reason to trust the right to actually follow through on their economic stuff, they're likely straight up lying to get votes. The only reason they don't like privatization is because they're statist and hate the accompanying corruption (also protectionist so foreign buyers are extra bad), but for the most part they're just populists and completely clueless about economic policy; to them, it's completely secondary to "moral renewal". Last time they were in power, they nominated a hardcore neoliberal for finance minister, cut inheritance tax and abolished the highest tax bracket, while their only welfare expansion was to throw a pitiful sum at each newborn kid as part of their "MAKE MORE BABBY" ticket and some healthcare investments. They're likely to just run the economy into the ground through sheer incompetence rather than any ideological fervor. You could always vote for the Greens. If PiS wins I can't wait for Minister of Education Krystyna Pawłowicz's new curriculum recommendations. Will there be two or three hours of religion a day, I wonder? And will the science and health curriculum finally teach God's truth that faggots are all degenerate perverts who richly deserve the beatings they so often receive in our glorious patriotic Catholic nation? Luckily they're all so fractious and caustic they could never hold a coalition together long term to do serious damage.
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Jan 17, 2015 22:47
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Brown Moses posted:Just wrote a post on a couple of new photos of the Buk that probably shot down MH17 we dug up, which you can read here. I had the following video put together to make it nice and visual Really nice transform work.
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Jan 17, 2015 22:52
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