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ManMythLegend posted:The bottom line is that if you're going to complain about LCS, at least know what you're talking about before you accuse me of being a SWO and defending it while you rattle off the standard Sailor Bob talking points. I will also remind you that both the ARLEIGH BURKE and OLIVER HAZARD PERRY classes, which are both continuously put on pedestals during LCS arguments, had literally the same complaints levied against them when they were first hitting the fleet and everything with them turned out fine. 
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Jan 17, 2015 17:57
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ManMythLegend posted:The bottom line is that if you're going to complain about LCS, at least know what you're talking about before you accuse me of being a SWO and defending it while you rattle off the standard Sailor Bob talking points. I will also remind you that both the ARLEIGH BURKE and OLIVER HAZARD PERRY classes, which are both continuously put on pedestals during LCS arguments, had literally the same complaints levied against them when they were first hitting the fleet and everything with them turned out fine. This is very interesting to read because as a civilian all I see in the news is "lol they're literally dissolving into the ocean" and things like that. I've never heard the perspective of someone who's actually got any experience with them. One thing I am curious about though: Which of the two classes, Independence and Freedom, is better? Or perhaps, what does Independence do better than Freedom and vice versa? If this is a nonsense question I apologize.
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Jan 17, 2015 19:25
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cut dod spending by 100% imo
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Jan 17, 2015 19:45
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Feb thread title, -Nobles dissolve in water
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Jan 17, 2015 19:48
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ManMythLegend posted:Without inviting the OPSEC fairy's wrath on this thread, there is a very important capability that is only possessed by OHP's and LCS's that has led to some very recent, very newsworthy events. That is in addition to the more mundane tasks they can perform. First off, those aren't SailorBob talking points. If you want talking points I'll post the [anonymized] talking points I have laying around from a very recently retired 3-star (sent to me via private message) that backs up absolutely everything I said and then-some. I'm not separating the program from the platform because at the end of the day garbage in = garbage out. And that is exactly what we're doing with this program. I get that OHP and Burke-class ships weren't perfect from the get-go, but we're building dozens of these things based on hollow-designs and intrinsic flaws, only to have to go back and retrofit them with their mission modules later on as they come to fruition. It's standard knee-jerk Navy bullshit, nothing more, nothing less. Hell, it's like the loving NWUs - room full of terminal O5s/O6s/E9s get together and sell a lovely bill of goods to the flags who eat it up because, hey, gently caress it, they're all retiring in 4-5 years anyways and its ~digital~. That's not an exaggeration, either. Also, how "safe you felt" is irrelevant. First, the OHP design is from like the late 60s. Second, there's a whole 'nother survivability conversation (or lack thereof) we can't have on these threads about the LCS. Let's just say it's less-than-flattering for a warship developed in the 21st century.
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Jan 17, 2015 21:42
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buttplug posted:
I always wondered who got the kick backs for the nwu and awful ptu designs.We could have just gone with a proven off the shelf design from Nike or Adidas or our unofficial sponsors under armour. Millions on task force uniform was better though. But hey although they promised a well thought out design capable of meeting all our clothing needs, charged us for it, and delivered turds at least they accomplish the mission of covering our fat asses. Look up the upside!
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Jan 17, 2015 22:14
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buttplug posted:First off, those aren't SailorBob talking points. If you want talking points I'll post the [anonymized] talking points I have laying around from a very recently retired 3-star (sent to me via private message) that backs up absolutely everything I said and then-some. I'm not separating the program from the platform because at the end of the day garbage in = garbage out. And that is exactly what we're doing with this program. Well, guess thats it. buttplug has talking points from an anonymous 3 star that proves him right beyond a shadow of a doubt.
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Jan 17, 2015 22:20
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buttplug posted:First off, those aren't SailorBob talking points. If you want talking points I'll post the [anonymized] talking points I have laying around from a very recently retired 3-star (sent to me via private message) that backs up absolutely everything I said and then-some. I'm not separating the program from the platform because at the end of the day garbage in = garbage out. And that is exactly what we're doing with this program. Great, so we've moved the goalposts from "useless" to "not survivable". Your anonymous 3 Star friend probably makes a lot of very good points. The bottom line is that LCS is not as survivable as other combatants. It's just not. I bring up my time on OHP's as more of a point to say that we as a fleet and a Navy are totally cool with the survivability of the PERRYs but LCS, which is the same or better, is just a bridge too far somehow. However, survivability relative to probably the best warship class in the world (ie the ARLEIGH BURKE) and overall survivability are not the same thing. Again, you have to look at the ROC/POE for the LCS design. They were never intended to do go drive straight into a Chinese port through a hail of YJ-82's and SIZZLERs to drop an MCM drone. They were designed to operate primarily in area of low ASCM threat, or on the fringes of higher threat areas as part of a more robust force. If you thought they were too expensive now I can't even imagine how much they would be per ship if we tried to BURKE them out. They are however survivable enough to exceed their initial ROC/POE. As for the bit about not being a 21st century ship I ask you what your ideal 21st century ship looks like? Because for all the flak it gets, and in spite of all it's flaws, it's got some pretty revolutionary stuff going on inside to include survivability features found in no other active warships in the world. ManMythLegend fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 22:25
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Hauldren Collider posted:This is very interesting to read because as a civilian all I see in the news is "lol they're literally dissolving into the ocean" and things like that. I've never heard the perspective of someone who's actually got any experience with them. One thing I am curious about though: Which of the two classes, Independence and Freedom, is better? Or perhaps, what does Independence do better than Freedom and vice versa? If this is a nonsense question I apologize. LCS has a lot of (rightly earned) parallels to the F-35 program which isn't good for it's perception both in and out of the Navy. As I fully admit, it's far from perfect, and probably not the choice that should have been made a decade or so ago, but they're still decent ships for what they're designed to do. As far as which is better, that's a tougher call. I'm probably a little biased since I served on INDEPENDENCE, but I prefer that design. FREEDOM is a little faster and has a slightly better combat system but the INDY design has much, much better layout, more space for add ons and what nots, is more stable, and more survivable (  ). Also, the yard that builds the GD variant is way better and so can handle a higher volume and produce a higher quality product then the LM one.All of that is kind of a moot point however since the Navy completely pussied out on down-checking one so we're stuck with both. Which, incidentally doesn't help the cost per ship numbers that get trotted out either.
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Jan 17, 2015 22:34
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ManMythLegend posted:Great, so we've moved the goalposts from "useless" to "not survivable". Your anonymous 3 Star friend probably makes a lot of very good points. The bottom line is that LCS is not as survivable as other combatants. It's just not. I bring up my time on OHP's as more of a point to say that we as a fleet and a Navy are totally cool with the survivability of the PERRYs but LCS, which is the same or better, is just a bridge too far somehow. Oh, would you like to talk about the guts of the warship and just what's going on inside? All of those systems that are networked together? Yea. loving. Garbage. Toss me a high-side address and I'll show you what I'm talking about. It epitomizes what happens when you plan/procure in a vacuum and let SWOs (i.e. not the IDC) have the final chop in the acquisition of C4I systems. The Navy writ large was "cool" with the survivability of the OHP insofaras they had no other choice. Aside from the one cool-guy function the OHP has, it is often relegated to "bullet sponge" position in any given screen and is rarely tasked to do anything with any actual importance. Dunno what your FFG was doing, but the ones I've interacted with in C7F were generally patted on the head and sent to do innocuous minutae....because they were more of a liability than an asset. buttplug fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 23:37
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death to literally every naval officer except maybe VR
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Jan 17, 2015 23:45
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unless i start seeing some powerpoints on this lcs crap i'm not going to be happy
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Jan 17, 2015 23:49
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buttplug posted:The Navy writ large was "cool" with the survivability of the OHP insofaras they had no other choice. Aside from the one cool-guy function the OHP has, it is often relegated to "bullet sponge" position in any given screen and is rarely tasked to do anything with any actual importance. Dunno what your FFG was doing, but the ones I've interacted with in C7F were generally patted on the head and sent to do innocuous minutae. My office is producing a book on the acquisition of OHP (it's 90% done, but I wouldn't expect to see it for two years+ due to some weapons-grade Navy bureaucratic insanity). OHP was a Cold War ship designed before Maritime Strategy and its design reflects on that. It evolved out of Zumwalt's late 1960's Patrol Frigate concept, when The Navy was convinced that the Soviets would be after merchant shipping from the US to Europe. The class was a direct replacement for the plethora of 2500-3500 ton vessels (think FF, DE) we had puttering along from the 50s and 60s. It was never supposed to go in swinging to a high threat environment - somewhere like the Persian Gulf was supposed to be around the upper limit of its capabilities. (STARK got hit because of a terrible captain and not the ship's systems) I can't speak to PACFLT's employment of OHP, but LCS/FF is a pretty reasonable one-to-one replacement for the OHP as originally intended. It's also controlled via joystick, which is pretty sweet
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Jan 17, 2015 23:53
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buttplug posted:Oh, would you like to talk about the guts of the warship and just what's going on inside? All of those systems that are networked together? Yea. loving. Garbage. Toss me a high-side address and I'll show you what I'm talking about. It epitomizes what happens when you plan/procure in a vacuum and let SWOs (i.e. not the IDC) have the final chop in the acquisition of C4I systems. The network does have it's flaws, and you are absolutely right that it was not the best design and contributes to the perception of a "lack" of "survivability". I never claimed otherwise. buttplug posted:The Navy writ large was "cool" with the survivability of the OHP insofaras they had no other choice. Aside from the one cool-guy function the OHP has, it is often relegated to "bullet sponge" position in any given screen and is rarely tasked to do anything with any actual importance. Dunno what your FFG was doing, but the ones I've interacted with in C7F were generally patted on the head and sent to do innocuous minutae....because they were more of a liability than an asset. You seem to forget that the OHP was literally created to be a missile/torpedo sponge during the Cold War. Like that was it's explicit purpose. They were supposed to hang out in the GIUK gap, tail out, and find/get sunk by Soviet subs, or hang out on the fringes of a strike group and soak up the first missile salvos before they got to the carrier. They were the cheap, disposable, small-surface combatant of the Navy 40 years ago. Them being treated like that is not some new development. My FFG did exactly the innocuous minutea that you're talking about it. You mentioning it makes it seem like you're completely missing the point that I'm trying to make. That innocuous poo poo consumes the vast majority of the fleet's time. It's a demand signal that is very large and growing. What you seem to be missing is that cutting LCS, and using that funding to build a couple of more BURKES will actually make the fleet less combat effective as we have to increase the OPTEMPO of a relatively small number of BURKEs that are completely overmatching the problem set rather than let them focus on more important stuff (BMD, AD, ASW collection, etc).
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Jan 18, 2015 00:01
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You really need to stop saying "demand signal."
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Jan 18, 2015 00:03
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ded posted:unless i start seeing some powerpoints on this lcs crap i'm not going to be happy You joke, but when I was in the program I disagreed with how the different watch conditions had been set up and handed down from on high. I made a power point with a little animation that so impressed the powers that be that it led to a direct change in some fundamental documents for the class. What I'm saying is that power point has made us stupid.
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Jan 18, 2015 00:05
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Stultus Maximus posted:You really need to stop saying "demand signal." I... I can't... 
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Jan 18, 2015 00:06
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why are mom and dad fighting 
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Jan 18, 2015 00:11
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I keep reading OHP as overhead press
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Jan 18, 2015 00:14
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Nostalgia4Dicks posted:I keep reading OHP as overhead press we enlisted are a simple people
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Jan 18, 2015 00:16
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~noble talk~ I got my first verbal order in the military this week. "I order you to pick that up." dropped a pencil and planned on getting it anyway. but luckily that LTJG gave me a reason to feel like a patriot while i did it Analogical fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 00:20
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Analogical posted:~noble talk~ lol
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Jan 18, 2015 00:23
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I love when enlistment people are on their soap box all "THAT IS A DIRECT ORDER!" Like it'll make us more likely to do it or like they can even give those
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Jan 18, 2015 00:31
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Nostalgia4Dicks posted:I love when enlistment people are on their soap box all "THAT IS A DIRECT ORDER!" Like it'll make us more likely to do it or like they can even give those I got told to not turn in a completed project because the dude wanted to get credit for it so I went ahead and turned it in anyway. He threatened me with failure to follow a direct order or some poo poo and I was all yeah take me to mast for doing my job  Dude ripped up the paperwork like it would undo the fact that it was done and I could just reprint the poo poo.
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Jan 18, 2015 00:47
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Jan 18, 2015 01:01
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m0t and MML post dick pics in fyad to determine whether OHP/BURKE or LCS is the better platform because otherwise this poo poo will never be over
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Jan 18, 2015 01:07
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krispykremessuck posted:m0t and MML post dick pics in fyad to determine whether OHP/BURKE or LCS is the better platform because otherwise this poo poo will never be over No need. I never claimed it was the best because it's not. I just hate it when people rail against kool aid drinking and then grab a pitcher full of a different color and chug until they drown.
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Jan 18, 2015 01:20
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krispykremessuck posted:m0t and MML post dick pics in fyad to determine whether OHP/BURKE or LCS is the better platform because otherwise this poo poo will never be over I'm not going to say this is a mod challenge but... Seriously this is one of the stupidest slap fights I've seen outside of Grover lasers.
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Jan 18, 2015 01:24
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Sorry for the Navy talk in the Navy thread. 
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Jan 18, 2015 01:29
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you dudes have seriously gayed up the navy thread now THAT is something
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Jan 18, 2015 01:33
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:I'm not going to say this is a mod challenge but... I thought it was interesting.
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Jan 18, 2015 01:40
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I retire in 498 days. I will likely never see an LCS again. Feels good, man.
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Jan 18, 2015 01:59
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MassivelyBuckNegro posted:I thought it was interesting. i didn't ur move
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Jan 18, 2015 02:00
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MassivelyBuckNegro posted:I thought it was interesting. justice4trayvawn posted:i didn't Really makes you think, eh. My 2c are that I am happy they are getting rid of calling it an LCS since L should stick with the terrible, Gator Navy.
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Jan 18, 2015 02:06
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Nick Soapdish posted:Really makes you think, eh. "CS" usually denotes a retard mouthbreather so is that part accurate?? ;D
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Jan 18, 2015 02:08
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ManMythLegend posted:No need. I never claimed it was the best because it's not. I just hate it when people rail against kool aid drinking and then grab a pitcher full of a different color and chug until they drown. No man, I get what you're saying. It's just that you're trying to argue with m0t. You're in a position to be CO/XO of one of those things some day, you have to be realistic about it. m0t is gonna top out at XO of SIPR mIRC and receiving PMs from retired, unnamed 3-stars. What I'm saying is don't argue with m0t.
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Jan 18, 2015 02:16
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I think the LCS is pretty neato. It's like a modular ship run by AI right? guys? right? ships are made of metal.
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Jan 18, 2015 02:16
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Analogical posted:I think the LCS is pretty neato. It's like a modular ship run by AI right? will the CMC call it cortanna?
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Jan 18, 2015 02:31
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ManMythLegend posted:No need. I never claimed it was the best because it's not. I just hate it when people rail against kool aid drinking and then grab a pitcher full of a different color and chug until they drown. Hah, there are very, very few subjects in the Navy (or military poo poo in general) that I have legitimately drank any amount of kool-aid in support of. Our loving absurdly bloated, literally criminal-at-times acquisitions process is not one of them because I've been intimately involved in it (COTS/GOTCS C4I systems not ship-stuff)... I have literally watched us drop millions of dollars on systems that nominally only cost tens of thousands to procure simply because the more expensive option was on the table. People think the defense contracts and acquisitions in the military are like walking into a loving BMW dealership where MORE MONEY == BETTER TOY. The fact that senior officers and flags can't see past that rookie poo poo used to nearly give me a loving aneurysm at my last command.
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Jan 18, 2015 03:16
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ManMythLegend posted:No need. I never claimed it was the best because it's not. I just hate it when people rail against kool aid drinking and then grab a pitcher full of a different color and chug until they drown. Yea, but your arguing against mot. It's like a deck seaman arguing against the chief quarters for being late because totally there is an instruction that says you can be UP TO 15 minutes late if the gate is busy and the MA says it's okay.
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