Eastern Europe: Poland rip in pis

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Eastern Europe: Poland rip in pis

HUGE PUBES A PLUS: Apr 30, 2005

OSCE confirms the bus was shot by militants.

http://nvua.net/ukraine/v-obse-podtverdili-chto-avtobus-pod-volnovahoy-rasstrelyali-so-storony-boevikov--29943.html

quote:

Observers special monitoring mission of the OSCE in Ukraine came to the conclusion that the bus fired under Volnovaha, shot from the north-east.

This conclusion experts came from the study of craters formed on the site of the tragedy.

"The survey included a comprehensive analysis of two distinct craters, including located 10 meters from the passenger bus. According to the evaluation mission, all considered craters were caused by rockets fired from the north-east direction," - said in a report of the OSCE.

It is on the north-east from the scene, where people were killed, located temporarily controlled territory to terrorists, in particular, the city Dokuchaevsk.

Earlier in the OSCE confirmed that the tragedy occurred at Volnovaha because the shelling of the City bus .

Recall, January 13 at 14:25 the terrorists fired at the checkpoint forces under ATO Volnovaha . One of the shells exploded near a passenger bus transporting locals. As a result, on the spot killed ten civilians. Later it was reported that died of his wounds later a man and a woman. Thus, the death toll reached 12 people. More than a dozen wounded residents remain in hospital.

US State Department spokesman Marie Harf said that the responsibility for the deaths of civilians under Volnovaha lies with Russia , which supports the rebels in the Donbas.

More late night explosions in Donetsk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAZRUsT_jGY

Belarusian fighters who are part of the Cyborgs raise their flag.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XegMp6LvvjI

HUGE PUBES A PLUS fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Jan 17, 2015

# ? Jan 17, 2015 23:13

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 00:58

Gantolandon: Aug 19, 2012

Crowsbeak posted:

Well in such a case I would ask myself, who do I vote for hurts people more? I mean theocratic poo poo heads are bad and gays shouldn't face persecution, but should people freeze to death because the recently privatized power company cut them off? Should seniors starve because they have to choose between food and medication?

Actually this is something I have personally been arguing for for a long time. In fact I would say politics occupies a sphere with three parts, Equality, Order, and Liberty. Poles don't have a party that represents equality. (Although most countries do not any more). So that leaves you with the question if you cannot have equality, do you want authoritarians or a bunch of people who want to open the floodgates for foreigners to violate the economy?

It's not as simple. All major parties learned a long time ago they can straight out lie during the elections with no consequences. PO, for example, won the elections on a liberal platform and hosed their electorate in the rear end by not doing things they specifically promised to do. Civil partnerships, for example, were on the table since 2007, but PO kept voting them down or even preventing them from being voted at all. Their conservative wing actually tried to make the abortion laws even more restrictive. Bureaucracy they promised to cut were actually expanded. The best thing, however, was when they promised to lower taxes in 2011 and, after they won, nearly immediately raised the consumption tax. It was supposed to be a temporary measure and get back to normal in 2012, but as for today, it still hasn't been changed.

As for PiS, there were that hilarious occasion when Jaroslaw drastically changed for the 2011 election campaign. He stopped accusing the ruling coalition of murdering his brother along with Vladimir Putin and, instead, started to claim he really is a left-wing politician. He went to the point when he actually praised the former First Secretary of the Polish United Worker's Party, Edward Gierek, calling him "a communist, but still a patriot". After he lost elections, batshit conspiracy theories immediately reappeared, speeches once again were made in pissed, petulant tone and "the left" once again became "post-communists". When asked by the press, Kaczynski claimed that he was not himself during the campaign, because he were taking sedatives. He also accused the politicians running his campaign of distorting his intentions which were supposed to cost him the presidency.

This resulted in an another hilarious event. The deputy who were running Kaczynski's electoral campaign felt wounded by her treatment. She got expelled, but managed to talk some politicians from PiS into leaving with her to create her own political party. After maybe six months, however, she got an offer from PO and immediately accepted, putting her colleagues in a very awkward position.

So it's not a choice between Order and Liberty, it's a choice between several utterly corrupt organizations which are going to break all their promises as soon as they don't need you. Before you propose voting on less established parties - this have been tried before with pathetic result's. Andrzej Lepper from "Samoobrona", the valiant defender of the farmers, forgot about his electorate just after Kaczyński invited him to the coalition. Janusz Palikot, who tried to lead the new reborn left, not only supported the act that raised the retirement age, but also after several months gave up on representing the poor and lobbied for anticlericals and small business instead. This is how the shitstains like Korwin-Mikke was elected to the European Parliament - pretty much everyone else has been tried before.

# ? Jan 17, 2015 23:21

Tevery Best: Oct 11, 2013; Hewlo Furriend

Gantolandon posted:

So it's not a choice between Order and Liberty, it's a choice between several utterly corrupt organizations which are going to break all their promises as soon as they don't need you. Before you propose voting on less established parties - this have been tried before with pathetic result's. Andrzej Lepper from "Samoobrona", the valiant defender of the farmers, forgot about his electorate just after Kaczyński invited him to the coalition.

You have a very bizarre perception of Lepper's party. He did not forget about his electorate when he was invited into the coalition, he never gave a poo poo about them at all. He was a bona fide populist with the express goal of getting into the parliament to avoid getting his poo poo repossessed for not paying his debts, not an innocent idealist corrupted by the evil King Jaroslaw of House Duck, First of His Name.

# ? Jan 17, 2015 23:42

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Discendo Vox posted:

Brown Moses posted:
Just wrote a post on a couple of new photos of the Buk that probably shot down MH17 we dug up, which you can read here. I had the following video put together to make it nice and visual

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVl_wY7glSk

Really nice transform work.

We've got another piece coming next week that's a very long look at the various claims and evidence relating to the suspected launch site of the Buk. Among other things we've contacted the guy who took this photo

And he sent the original files, which were a type of RAW file, and as reported elsewhere the metadata shows a time that matches with the downing of MH17. We'll be posting uncompressed copies of the photos minus the metadata as part of the post.

# ? Jan 17, 2015 23:54

Cocoa Ninja: Mar 3, 2007

Twitter reports from Ukranian troops are saying Commander Motorola might be among the dead at the airport as the Ukranian 93rd tank brigade pushes into Donetsk airport and the city.

Residents on the ground reporting street fighting and Commander of the Ukranian general military HQ Muzhenko is supposedly on the ground running the operation. This seems very counter to the idea that Donetsk airport is encircled� probably lots of fog of war.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 00:31

HUGE PUBES A PLUS: Apr 30, 2005

Here is a report on the Ukrainian military battling militants.

http://www.hromadske.tv/society/ukrayinski-biitsi-probili-koridor-do-donetskogo-ae/

quote:

In Donetsk airport continues fight. This public phones reported commander of the 5th Battalion single "Right Sector" with the call sign "Black".

"It is against guys who are trying to expand the bridgehead, the militants are using all kinds of weapons, including point" U "and" Storm ", - he said.

He also commander confirmed that corridor to Donetsk airport really reflected in militants.

"This is a huge corridor, which is now able to walk. The problem for guys - keep up the area and try to defend it, "- he said.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRPqQiBi_Tg

And from Facebook:

quote:

The situation is very tense. Today, 93 and 80 and the crew tried to break in Donetsk from the airport to withdraw its blockade. Number Arti engaged with both sides struggling to impress, tanks appeared on direct duel. Now in this area continues fierce battle. The artillery of the enemy does not move our troops. Today the enemy tank made 13 beautiful shots in our sky, our guys goals and continue to serve in good condition. Occasionally arrives on sand castles, SAU, minomety.Sudyachy the nature of the enemy artillery against us are skilled Russian troops. This is not the militia, odnoznachno.Otsinyuyuchy current situation, we can conclude that we are facing a very difficult night. The boys all alive and well and ready for battle. Glory to Ukraine!

Video of the Ukrainian military destroying a checkpoint in Donetsk.

https://fbcdn-video-j-a.akamaihd.ne...427ae09cf49f7ed

HUGE PUBES A PLUS fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Jan 18, 2015

# ? Jan 18, 2015 00:37

Gantolandon: Aug 19, 2012

Tevery Best posted:

You have a very bizarre perception of Lepper's party. He did not forget about his electorate when he was invited into the coalition, he never gave a poo poo about them at all. He was a bona fide populist with the express goal of getting into the parliament to avoid getting his poo poo repossessed for not paying his debts, not an innocent idealist corrupted by the evil King Jaroslaw of House Duck, First of His Name.

The whole "valiant defender of farmers" was supposed to be ironic...

# ? Jan 18, 2015 00:59

Horns of Hattin: Dec 21, 2011

New documentary on MH-17 from RT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwC9RJopkHU

# ? Jan 18, 2015 01:07

Cuntpunch: Oct 3, 2003; A monkey in a long line of kings

eigenstate posted:

New documentary on MH-17 from RT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwC9RJopkHU

quote:

RTD travels far and wide to interview international experts on what has hindered the investigation

Russian mercenaries shooting at investigators, mostly.

quote:

what procedures were needed to collect vital evidence

Probably better containment than letting Russian mercenaries take home debris and personal belongings as keepsakes.

quote:

and what might have brought down the ill-fated Boeing 777.

A surface-to-air missile, most likely.

It really isn't hard to do a better job than RT, is it?

# ? Jan 18, 2015 01:23

Radio Prune: Feb 19, 2010

How do these people live with themselves trying to exculpate the killers of 300 innocent people with what they know are manufactured lies.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 01:57

my dad: Oct 17, 2012; this shall be humorous

Money, dear boy.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 01:59

Best Friends: Nov 4, 2011

"If you think of it, America, is, uh, bad"

*cashes modestly upper middle class paycheck*

"I'm making it in journalism!"

# ? Jan 18, 2015 02:06

Rukeli: May 10, 2014

my dad posted:

Money, dear boy.

Money and Self-Delusion. It's easier to live with yourself if you firmly believe you're working for the good guys.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 02:39

Smerdyakov: Jul 8, 2008

Radio Prune posted:

How do these people live with themselves trying to exculpate the killers of 300 innocent people with what they know are manufactured lies.

Rukeli posted:

Money and Self-Delusion. It's easier to live with yourself if you firmly believe you're working for the good guys.

I don't even think delusions are that important anymore. Media is about marketing and good ratings are the only thing that matter, and truth is super subjective and stuff. If everyone around you including the people writing your checks have that ethic, it's probably pretty easy to internalize ratings = truth.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 03:26

OddObserver: Apr 3, 2009

Radio Prune posted:

How do these people live with themselves trying to exculpate the killers of 300 innocent people with what they know are manufactured lies.

Considering they are pretty much responsible for all of close to 5000 deaths, excusing a few hundred from the people they duped shouldn't be so surprising.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 03:53

chitoryu12: Apr 24, 2014

Apparently recent footage of tank shells hitting the airport.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu-5h-V8SJo

# ? Jan 18, 2015 06:53

fuck off Batman: Oct 14, 2013; Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah!

Rukeli posted:

Money and Self-Delusion. It's easier to live with yourself if you firmly believe you're working for the good guys.

With good enough push you can self-rationalize anything so you can sleep soundly at night. They probably don't see it as manufactured lies, but stretching the truth a bit so justice can ultimately prevail in this just world. Human minds are really flexible when it comes to this things.

Just my 32 rubles.

EDIT: 33 rubles

fuck off Batman fucked around with this message at 09:23 on Jan 18, 2015

# ? Jan 18, 2015 09:21

Ideal_id: Dec 30, 2011

More tank footage from ukrainian perspective http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/pid-doneckim-aeroportom-vidbuvsya-epichniy-biy-iz-desyatkami-tankiv-i-artileriyskimi-duelyami-403401.html
Things seem to be heating up there. There are news about street fighting in Donetsk and unconfirmed rumours suggest that commander Motorola is dead.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 09:31

Smerdyakov: Jul 8, 2008

Disco Infiva posted:

With good enough push you can self-rationalize anything so you can sleep soundly at night. They probably don't see it as manufactured lies, but stretching the truth a bit so justice can ultimately prevail in this just world. Human minds are really flexible when it comes to this things.

Just my 32 rubles.

EDIT: 33 rubles

Yeah, I hate to be "what about Iraq" guy, but I remember 2003 and the US media's behavior was almost universally shameful. There was no semblance of debate and factual information or opposing viewpoints were impossible to get on TV for at least a year or two after.

I'm sure Russia Today will imitate the western media model and have some thoughtful retrospectives about how they may have oversold the whole "fascist junta genocide" angle in Ukraine sometime around 2023, 2033 at the latest.

Smerdyakov fucked around with this message at 09:37 on Jan 18, 2015

# ? Jan 18, 2015 09:34

Pimpmust: Oct 1, 2008

Cocoa Ninja posted:

Twitter reports from Ukranian troops are saying Commander Motorola might be among the dead at the airport as the Ukranian 93rd tank brigade pushes into Donetsk airport and the city.

Residents on the ground reporting street fighting and Commander of the Ukranian general military HQ Muzhenko is supposedly on the ground running the operation. This seems very counter to the idea that Donetsk airport is encircled� probably lots of fog of war.

The place is pretty huge if you look at that flyover video, you can easily have a few buildings surrounded and still have a tank brigade pass by the whole thing and head for the city or what not. But I believe the UA did counter-attack (a brigade is loving huge) and open up a corridor to get wounded out.

The Reason the Russians can't take the airport is because the UA can escalate the fight beyond anything the DNR/LNR broskis can muster without the Russian army showing up full scale.

e: Looks like a coke plant has gone up in flames from artillery fire in Avdiyivka, with a couple of dead workers.

And the UA still seem to be only employing their upgraded T-64 models, no T-84s. Guessing they are holding those in reserve/defending Kiev.

Pimpmust fucked around with this message at 10:29 on Jan 18, 2015

# ? Jan 18, 2015 10:22

Tevery Best: Oct 11, 2013; Hewlo Furriend

Gantolandon posted:

The whole "valiant defender of farmers" was supposed to be ironic...

I actually literally missed that part of the phrase and just focused on what came next. Colour me Poe.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 10:55

SaltyJesus: Jun 2, 2011; Arf!

Gantolandon posted:

Polish info again, as the ruling coalition is facing two somewhat serious crises:

Thanks for the Polish politics updates, I find them really interesting. I know the whole no-good-choice situation is kind of universal right now but the Polish situation rings particularly familiar.

Guildencrantz posted:

The defense of "well the miners can all retrain for different stuff and get new jobs" is completely laughable outside of some old-school Protestant understanding of economics as a system of divine reward and punishment for individuals.

From my second-hand experience it seems the Polish people have drunk the free-market kool-aid pretty hard. Chicago school style free market economics has more in common with a religion than a serious academic discipline. Retraining everybody works in the mathematical model, it doesn't matter that the model doesn't really model anything but it's real neat.

E: The US/Russia involvement during the Maidan protest chat reminded me of this.

When a porn actress gets in position for double penetration.
Actually, ex-Yu was pretty good at playing both sides :ssh:

E2: The airport flyover video reminds me of a flyover of Vukovar iirc I saw once. Horrific. :smith:

SaltyJesus fucked around with this message at 11:44 on Jan 18, 2015

# ? Jan 18, 2015 11:32

Sandweed: Sep 7, 2006; All your friends are me.

The video reminded me of a Call of duty map.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 15:19

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

It really weirds me out that all of this stuff is happening closeby and our German media isn't reporting on it. Are our journalists all sleeping? Hopefully tomorrow when they come back from their weekend-holidays I can finally see this stuff in the news.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 15:29

my dad: Oct 17, 2012; this shall be humorous

Libluini posted:

It really weirds me out that all of this stuff is happening closeby and our German media isn't reporting on it. Are our journalists all sleeping? Hopefully tomorrow when they come back from their weekend-holidays I can finally see this stuff in the news.

Je Suis Charlie

# ? Jan 18, 2015 15:32

Gantolandon: Aug 19, 2012

It appears that the government came to an agreement with the strikers.

Main resolutions:

4 mines are going to be restructured, but by agreement with the unions and local authorities
reorganized mines will get sold to private investors or transformed into employee-owned companies
if it fails, no employees of restructured mines are going to be fired

The electorate of PO is seething that Kopacz didn't send the police to disperse the strikers instead and are screaming betrayal. Reading comments under articles on gazeta.pl is hilarious, some people there call for abolishment of labor unions.

Meanwhile, the SLD candidate for president, Magdalena Og�rek, made a speech in Sejm. According to her, the most important things to do in Poland are removing obstacles for private entrepreneurs, lowering taxes and establishing the National Guard. :negative:

# ? Jan 18, 2015 16:02

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

my dad posted:

Je Suis Charlie

#JeSuisValera

# ? Jan 18, 2015 16:37

Randler: Jan 3, 2013; ACER ET VEHEMENS BONAVIS

Libluini posted:

It really weirds me out that all of this stuff is happening closeby and our German media isn't reporting on it. Are our journalists all sleeping? Hopefully tomorrow when they come back from their weekend-holidays I can finally see this stuff in the news.

But it already is on the front page of Spiegel Online. :shrug:

# ? Jan 18, 2015 16:48

Rukeli: May 10, 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnJOsOzpz4k

Vice News set up a persuasive and powerful speech by George Soros, explaining why it's important for Europeans to support Ukraine politically and financially.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 16:54

Dilkington: Aug 6, 2010; "Al mio amore Dilkington, Gennaro"

Rukeli posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnJOsOzpz4k

Vice News set up a persuasive and powerful speech by George Soros, explaining why it's important for Europeans to support Ukraine politically and financially.

Now the hipsters have been implicated in the judeo-marxist-masonic conspiracy.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 17:21

Radio Prune: Feb 19, 2010

Dilkington posted:

Now the hipsters have been implicated in the judeo-marxist-masonic conspiracy.

"Now"? I thought they were always involved as the vanguard of the Cultural Marxist plot to corrupt the youth of the Occident.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 17:33

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

Randler posted:

But it already is on the front page of Spiegel Online.

Well, gently caress. Of course this gets posted just after I look one last time for news.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 17:35

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

So, purportedly, 2 MKTK-1A vehicles have been sighted in Donetsk. Here is what is claimed to be photo of one of them.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 18:14

ass struggle: Dec 25, 2012; by Athanatos

I still have no idea what's happening west of Donetsk, but someone is blowing up bridges from Donetsk to the Airport.

Seems like something you'd do while retreating.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 18:40

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

sparatuvs posted:

I still have no idea what's happening west of Donetsk, but someone is blowing up bridges from Donetsk to the Airport.

Seems like something you'd do while retreating.

Remember, there was a fair share of bridge/railway blowing earlier on. However, this is an interesting circumstance indeed, as you point out, since we are to believe (at least I haven't see anything related yet) that separatists' troops are still present in the airport.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 18:44

Lucy Heartfilia: May 31, 2012

So the Ukrainian army is retaking Donetsk?

# ? Jan 18, 2015 18:46

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; This does not make sense when, again, aggregate indicia also indicate improvements. The belief that things are worse is false. It remains false.

Rukeli posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnJOsOzpz4k

Vice News set up a persuasive and powerful speech by George Soros, explaining why it's important for Europeans to support Ukraine politically and financially.

It's so weird seeing him in person, still playing such a significant role, still seeming more or less functional. Dude's 84, and I'd say the most powerful philosopher in history, for better or worse.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 18:46

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Lucy Heartfilia posted:

So the Ukrainian army is retaking Donetsk?

If anything, this extends time they will not be able to.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 18:49

HUGE PUBES A PLUS: Apr 30, 2005

News sources say Putin sent Poroshenko a withdrawal plan to get heavy artillery out of Donbass. Poroshenko rejected this plan and went on full assault. The sources are all Russian - RT, Sputnik etc.

Video of shelling going on in Donetsk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtDu_JqQeRs

# ? Jan 18, 2015 18:50

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 00:58

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Discendo Vox posted:

It's so weird seeing him in person, still playing such a significant role, still seeming more or less functional. Dude's 84, and I'd say the most powerful philosopher in history, for better or worse.

The most powerful philosopher in history, as he is a billionaire interested in history?

It is a bit annoying to see sanctions be cited as more or less the central issue for the Russian economy again or conflated with oil prices, if the sanctions were lifted tomorrow it probably wouldn't have much of an effect on the Russian Ruble. The sanctions hurt Russian industry in a few key areas and make private financing overly reliant on Russian reserves, but actually the Russian Ruble is guided by exports and the give and take of oil prices has a fine correlation. Just needs to be said again.

Ardennes fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Jan 18, 2015

# ? Jan 18, 2015 18:54

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