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Heh, it is a small world. My wife knows one of the people who was in that waiting room. Watching this outbreak unfold is as terrifying as it is depressing. I made this mistake of reading the comments on a Forbes piece and people were saying illegal immigrants brought in the virus. It is bad enough that communities have poor vaccination rates, let alone blaming poor migrant workings whom apparently have enough money to go to Disneyland instead of anything that actually makes sense.
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Jan 16, 2015 06:02
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torpedan posted:Heh, it is a small world. My wife knows one of the people who was in that waiting room. On one hand I really hope that a lot of anti-vaxxers are going to "holy poo poo we're stupid, quick go get vaccines now!" On the other hand I just know that there are going to be some screaming about how this is just a conspiracy by big pharma to deliberately create an epidemic to squash the anti-vax movement. Because obviously if they wanted measles to be exterminated by now it would have been.
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Jan 18, 2015 05:29
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To swing the majority of the anti-vax community, they would likely need to see an outbreak where unvaccinated people were dying off in droves. There is a common argument that the modern understanding of disease as well as modern medicine either reduces the risk significantly or is to be credited for the drop in the prevalence of these diseases (never mind that vaccines should be included in that group). It is unfortunate, but it is much easier to move goal posts or believe that it will not happen in your community than it is to change a belief. The bigger immediate benefit is that highly visible outbreaks take even more steam out of their movements momentum as well as giving more leverage against things like delayed vaccine schedules.
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Jan 18, 2015 19:18
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ToxicSlurpee posted:On one hand I really hope that a lot of anti-vaxxers are going to "holy poo poo we're stupid, quick go get vaccines now!" On the other hand I just know that there are going to be some screaming about how this is just a conspiracy by big pharma to deliberately create an epidemic to squash the anti-vax movement. Because obviously if they wanted measles to be exterminated by now it would have been. Yeah. There are plenty of them who will just latch onto other theories to justify their position. A while back I had a lady explain to me that chemtrails were big pharmacy response to the homeopathic movement and anti-vaxxers. Her position was that as people moved away from vaccines and modern medicine, stuff like cancer and autism was naturally decreasing. Therefore, big pharma was spreading them via chemtrails to hide their evil deeds. I tried to explain the elementary school concept of diffusion to her as a counterpoint to why that wouldn't even work, but she was having none of it... This is also the woman who let her 8 year old decide whether or not to get vaccinated after hearing "all the facts." Guess what the 8 year old choose, obviously of her own accord?
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Jan 18, 2015 19:42
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xrunner posted:...homeopathic movement ... This person has a worldview of diffusion that is completely incompatible with reality. She believes that you can make drugs stronger by diluting them, chemtrails make perfect sense from that perspective.
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Jan 18, 2015 19:45
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torpedan posted:To swing the majority of the anti-vax community, they would likely need to see an outbreak where unvaccinated people were dying off in droves. That won't swing them. Look what happens with Ebola. They'll be eating onions and praying to god right up until they poo poo out their guts.
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Jan 18, 2015 19:45
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:This person has a worldview of diffusion that is completely incompatible with reality. She believes that you can make drugs stronger by diluting them, chemtrails make perfect sense from that perspective. That's true, but anecdotally, most people I've met who are into the homeopathic stuff don't really care or even know about the batshit explanation for why it works. They just think it's "natural" and something big pharma doesn't like.
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Jan 18, 2015 19:56
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xrunner posted:That's true, but anecdotally, most people I've met who are into the homeopathic stuff don't really care or even know about the batshit explanation for why it works. They just think it's "natural" and something big pharma doesn't like. Who would've guessed that ignorant people tend to be ignorant about ignorance itself?
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Jan 18, 2015 20:51
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PT6A posted:Who would've guessed that ignorant people tend to be ignorant about ignorance itself? Hey I know in my gut that it works and that literally everything organizes medicine does is to make you sick and take your money. My gut feelings are always right because they just are ok?
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Jan 18, 2015 21:22
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SedanChair posted:That won't swing them. Look what happens with Ebola. They'll be eating onions and praying to god right up until they poo poo out their guts. Ebola is more of a special case though. It is very easy to make a claim saying that essential oils will cure a disease when the odds of actually encountering said disease are very slim. I do agree that there will be portions of the population that will never be swayed, but I do think there is a noteworthy segment that may be persuaded otherwise once the stakes are very high.
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Jan 18, 2015 21:27
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torpedan posted:Ebola is more of a special case though. It is very easy to make a claim saying that essential oils will cure a disease when the odds of actually encountering said disease are very slim. I do agree that there will be portions of the population that will never be swayed, but I do think there is a noteworthy segment that may be persuaded otherwise once the stakes are very high. You may find research on persuasive messaging using fear appeals interesting, in this regard.
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Jan 18, 2015 21:32
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torpedan posted:Ebola is more of a special case though. It is very easy to make a claim saying that essential oils will cure a disease when the odds of actually encountering said disease are very slim. I do agree that there will be portions of the population that will never be swayed, but I do think there is a noteworthy segment that may be persuaded otherwise once the stakes are very high. That's probably why the anti-vaccination movement even got its foot hold. I remember my grandparents telling me about all the awful poo poo they saw smallpox and polio cause in the world when they were children and were absolutely adamant about vaccinating everybody, throwing money into vaccine research, and getting rid of more awful diseases. I remember asking my grandmother about her smallpox vaccine scar and hearing her say that yeah it was kind of ugly but that's nothing compared to smallpox. I don't think I ever met a single person in her generation that was against vaccines because drat near all of them had met somebody that was crippled somehow by polio. I remember hearing a few stories about how god awful outbreaks of measles or mumps could be and how awesome it was to have vaccines for them. How many anti-vaxxers have even met somebody that's had a horrifying disease? It's balls easy to convince people to start getting vaccines when hideous diseases are running rampant apparently but when they go away it's "well they just want to sell you vaccines!" Yeah and I don't want to have to worry about your unvaccinated child sharing their hideous diseases with my child, thanks.
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Jan 18, 2015 21:44
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ToxicSlurpee posted:How many anti-vaxxers have even met somebody that's had a horrifying disease? It's balls easy to convince people to start getting vaccines when hideous diseases are running rampant apparently but when they go away it's "well they just want to sell you vaccines!" Yeah and I don't want to have to worry about your unvaccinated child sharing their hideous diseases with my child, thanks. This partially is also dependent on their preexisting beliefs- if the individual is already an antivaxxer, the disease can (as we've seen in this thread) make them double down on their prior beliefs. The proximity/apparent risk of getting the disease is also a factor. The research I linked a bit ago discusses fear appeal persuasion in terms of "severity" and "susceptibility" of the danger involved in the appeal. Maxing these values out makes people start behaving very strangely in response to a fear message. At least some theorists think targets of fear appeals will effectively choose response behaviors or beliefs that will relieve the fear, rather than the risk- sometimes they try to stop learning about the danger to make themselves feel better- in other words, they avoid information about the danger rather than the danger itself. The uncertainty and probability calculations involved in vaccination are unfortunately probably a good setting to drive information consumers to this sort of "information retreat" behavior. When this phenomenon occurs is debated, and it's worth noting none of the research is all that solid- it's a really tricky area to theorize or collect data in. As you can imagine, it's hard to get a study involving this sort of thing through IRB. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 21:54
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As seen with the recent measles outbreaks, if an antivaxxer sees unvaccinated people getting sick then they assume that it's big pharma or the government intentionally infecting people so that they can sell more vaccines.
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Jan 18, 2015 22:00
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Discendo Vox posted:You may find research on persuasive messaging using fear appeals interesting, in this regard. This is one of the major problems when trying to persuade people. The biggest thing that a massive outbreak would bring is funding to allow for proper communications as well as advertising campaigns, etc. In the pro-vax communities there is a increasing emphasis on the way in which the message is conveyed, but unfortunately it is just as large of an uphill battle trying to convince people that using derogatory language and accusing people of any number of negative things is not constructive. At times feels very much like a no-win situation. ToxicSlurpee posted:How many anti-vaxxers have even met somebody that's had a horrifying disease? This question is a pretty common topic when talking about anti-vaccination and the rhetoric behind it. It makes sense on a lot of levels as vaccine side effects are visible, as well as many things which are claimed to be a link to vaccines, but the effects of the disease is themselves is much less so. This is not to say that some diseases are not still prevalent enough to witness, pertussis is a good example of one, but going back to what Is being discussed about persuasion it is very easy for people to selectively ignore that information. As a whole people on both sides of the topic have good intentions and that only feeds into the complexity of trying to convince people to vaccinate their children.
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Jan 18, 2015 22:44
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UrbanLabyrinth posted:Minor success story here, at least: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jan/08/sydney-venue-cancels-seminar-us-anti-vaccine-activist-sherri-tenpenny It gets better!: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jan/19/anti-vaccination-seminar-venues-all-pull-out-but-tour-will-go-ahead
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Jan 19, 2015 08:57
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torpedan posted:This question is a pretty common topic when talking about anti-vaccination and the rhetoric behind it. It makes sense on a lot of levels as vaccine side effects are visible, as well as many things which are claimed to be a link to vaccines, but the effects of the disease is themselves is much less so. This is not to say that some diseases are not still prevalent enough to witness, pertussis is a good example of one, but going back to what Is being discussed about persuasion it is very easy for people to selectively ignore that information. As a whole people on both sides of the topic have good intentions and that only feeds into the complexity of trying to convince people to vaccinate their children. I actually had pertussis as a kid and holy gently caress balls was that awful. I've have yet to meet an anti-vaxxer in the wild but you can bet your rear end I'm going to mention that and say "oh by the way, there's a vaccine for that."
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Jan 19, 2015 09:37
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UrbanLabyrinth posted:It gets better!: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jan/19/anti-vaccination-seminar-venues-all-pull-out-but-tour-will-go-ahead This misleading behavior really should not surprise me as much as it does. Recently the Australian government force the Australian Vaccine Network to change their name to indicate that they are actually a anti-vaccine organization (it is now the Australian vaccine-skeptics network.) generally the organization's actions and names have been very misleading trying to emphasize their authority on the subject. The new name change for the AVN is not any better as the word skeptics is used for both pro and anti-. ToxicSlurpee posted:I actually had pertussis as a kid and holy gently caress balls was that awful. I've have yet to meet an anti-vaxxer in the wild but you can bet your rear end I'm going to mention that and say "oh by the way, there's a vaccine for that." My sister does not vaccinate her kids and is pretty far down the rabbit hole. Amazingly, she did not come to the family Christmas this year. It is a 14 hour Drive for either of us, but she decided she really didn't want to do it this year. I suspect it has more to do with my sister-in-law undergoing chemo as well as mine and my wife's very stated intentions that we will not come and visit the family if she was there because of our 10-month-old baby. At some point her and my wife are going to collide on the topic and it will be pretty epic.
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Jan 19, 2015 17:28
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Fionnoula posted:Yeah, that's going up soon, too. 3 more! We've now got 13 in San Diego. And for some reason, every time they get another one the health department comes out with their list of possible contacts, it always contains like 3-5 grocery stores. Who the hell shops at that many different grocery stores? I sure hope they're all taking the time to stop and cough all over the produce, that would sure be a big help to us all.
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Jan 19, 2015 23:03
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This, on my facebook today in response to a friend's post about vaccines. One person babbled something about big pharma and the majority of other readers tried to explain basic science. (Thank god 90% of comments were also pro-vaccine)some dumbass posted:To chime in late my humble opinion is that this is a personal choice people make and know many who have thoughtfully and with great researching etc. But they go to great lengths to ensure the security of others who make different decisions. If you make a choice you have to be responsible for it, responsible for your child and especially other people children. My children where part of a study with vaccines. To see if we can get approved here in USA what they do in Canada. Combine vaccines. So I am not willing to chance my kids health but certainly understand the concern with all yhese drug companies more concerned about profit margins and not safety (who can watch TV with seeing a infomerical siting a lawsuit) I have learned with wonderful but VERY different friends to always see and respect the other side. Uh...no. I'm all for "respectful debate" about things that are actually debatable...but I'm not going to "respect your opinion that gravity doesn't actually exist" so no, I'm also not going to respect your "opinion" that vaccines are a big pharma conspiracy.
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Jan 20, 2015 19:26
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ActusRhesus posted:This, on my facebook today in response to a friend's post about vaccines. One person babbled something about big pharma and the majority of other readers tried to explain basic science. (Thank god 90% of comments were also pro-vaccine) Am I reading it right that they think combining vaccines somehow makes them unsafe?
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Jan 20, 2015 19:29
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dpbjinc posted:Am I reading it right that they think combining vaccines somehow makes them unsafe? I have no idea what the gently caress they are saying. Now they are ranting about tolerance and respect. sorry but a. many "opinions" are actually objectively false factual statements (e.g. vaccines cause autism) and other "opinions" do not warrant respect. (e.g. one of my former co-workers who was of the opinion that women had no business working outside the home). This whole la la la look at me, I'm so tolerant, can be a little ridiculous when taken to the extremes. There are times when it is entirely appropriate to tell someone they are full of poo poo.
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Jan 20, 2015 19:32
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Actually, as someone who doesn't know much about vaccine development, do manufacturers have to do anything different when formulating a combined vaccine? Is there a potential for an interaction effect rendering it inert, for example? vvvv Like, there are metric tons of problems with the pharmaceutical industry and regulatory capture and such, but in my experience studying these sorts of things, already approved vaccines are the absolutely least ethically problematic aspect of the entire field. Industry has virtually zero perverse incentive when it comes to post-market vaccine safety, reporting and regulation, compared with just about everything else they do. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Jan 20, 2015 |
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Jan 20, 2015 19:40
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Big Farma is all about money that is why they insist you take your vaccines on a particular schedule. If you took the vaccines in any other order/timetable they wouldn't make as much profit because something something fiscal year.
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Jan 20, 2015 19:45
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Discendo Vox posted:Actually, as someone who doesn't know much about vaccine development, do manufacturers have to do anything different when formulating a combined vaccine? Is there a potential for an interaction effect rendering it inert, for example? I would assume so, or there could be a larger chance of an adverse reaction, as there are occasional adverse reactions to vaccines. That being said, the FDA is so rigorous about this stuff that if it's on the US market and FDA approved, it's safe when prescribed by a doctor.
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Jan 20, 2015 19:56
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Discendo Vox posted:Actually, as someone who doesn't know much about vaccine development, do manufacturers have to do anything different when formulating a combined vaccine? Is there a potential for an interaction effect rendering it inert, for example? I take less issue with her being interested in combined/delayed schedules than I do with the whole "we have to respect everyone's opinions" thing defending someone who was babbling incoherently about big pharma.
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Jan 20, 2015 19:59
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dpbjinc posted:Am I reading it right that they think combining vaccines somehow makes them unsafe? That's pretty much what Wakefield was trying to
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Jan 20, 2015 20:05
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Dirk the Average posted:I would assume so, or there could be a larger chance of an adverse reaction, as there are occasional adverse reactions to vaccines. That being said, the FDA is so rigorous about this stuff that if it's on the US market and FDA approved, it's safe when prescribed by a doctor. Oh, I'm absolutely not doubting safety or rigor. I'm actually really curious about the mechanism! It'd be good for this thread to also include really rigorous information on vaccine development, for those rare rhetorical situations where additional technical information actually helps.
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Jan 20, 2015 20:11
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dpbjinc posted:Am I reading it right that they think combining vaccines somehow makes them unsafe? Yeah, there's a branch of the anti-vaxxer community that thinks that solo vaccines are perfectly safe but that combined vaccines are dangerous. They originate from the studies conducted by a doctor who had a patent on a new measles vaccine, and produced several bullshit papers showing that the combined MMR vaccine widely used to vaccinate people against measles were actually dangerous and a solo measles vaccine like his was much safer. Unsurprisingly, mean old Big Pharma claimed that his papers demonstrating the dangers of his primary commercial competitor were bogus, but he managed to kick up quite a stir anyway, and he allied himself with the anti-vaxxer movement as a doctor willing to stand up in court as an expert witness and preach the supposed dangers of (rival) vaccines.
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Jan 20, 2015 21:19
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The fact that this doctor was discredited actually gives him more credibility within the antivax community
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Jan 20, 2015 23:16
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Main Paineframe posted:Yeah, there's a branch of the anti-vaxxer community that thinks that solo vaccines are perfectly safe but that combined vaccines are dangerous. They originate from the studies conducted by a doctor who had a patent on a new measles vaccine, and produced several bullshit papers showing that the combined MMR vaccine widely used to vaccinate people against measles were actually dangerous and a solo measles vaccine like his was much safer. Unsurprisingly, mean old Big Pharma claimed that his papers demonstrating the dangers of his primary commercial competitor were bogus, but he managed to kick up quite a stir anyway, and he allied himself with the anti-vaxxer movement as a doctor willing to stand up in court as an expert witness and preach the supposed dangers of (rival) vaccines. I love how they worry about anti-body overload yet think nothing of breast milk.
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Jan 20, 2015 23:32
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Discendo Vox posted:Oh, I'm absolutely not doubting safety or rigor. I'm actually really curious about the mechanism! It'd be good for this thread to also include really rigorous information on vaccine development, for those rare rhetorical situations where additional technical information actually helps. http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/initiative/tools/MMR_vaccine_rates_information_sheet.pdf That posted:GBS has been reported following receipt of MMR and its component vaccines; however, the United States Institute of Medicine
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Jan 20, 2015 23:36
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dpbjinc posted:Am I reading it right that they think combining vaccines somehow makes them unsafe? I seem to recall there was a bit of a stink over in the UK about the combined MMR jab which supposedly gave you autism. I never really paid much attention as to the reasoning but some people were very fussy about getting them separately.
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Jan 20, 2015 23:55
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eNeMeE posted:http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/initiative/tools/MMR_vaccine_rates_information_sheet.pdf That's not what I...nevermind.
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Jan 20, 2015 23:56
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Discendo Vox posted:That's not what I...nevermind. There's no difference so there's no mechanism. As for rigorous information, I'm not that bored.
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Jan 21, 2015 01:37
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Main Paineframe posted:Yeah, there's a branch of the anti-vaxxer community that thinks that solo vaccines are perfectly safe but that combined vaccines are dangerous. They originate from the studies conducted by a doctor who had a patent on a new measles vaccine, and produced several bullshit papers showing that the combined MMR vaccine widely used to vaccinate people against measles were actually dangerous and a solo measles vaccine like his was much safer. Unsurprisingly, mean old Big Pharma claimed that his papers demonstrating the dangers of his primary commercial competitor were bogus, but he managed to kick up quite a stir anyway, and he allied himself with the anti-vaxxer movement as a doctor willing to stand up in court as an expert witness and preach the supposed dangers of (rival) vaccines. I absolutely love pointing this out to people who ramble on about Big Pharma pushing vaccines for profit. They don't even realize they're supporting Wakefield in effect, who was guilty of doing exactly what they're raging about Big Pharma doing. Unfortunately, all it does is cause them to double down on their beliefs.
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Jan 21, 2015 01:52
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Any time I see a Big Pharma reference I want to start substituting in things. Big grocery, big Internet, big homeopathy, big egg, big meat, big condom, etc. It is like we live in world where most everything is run for profit and people just selectively ignore that. Even more so, unlike other industries, it is easy to find the actual cost of the vaccine online. I don't have the link on hand, but I think the CDC has a pricelist (and the cost listed do not appear to be colluded or profit gouging.)
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Jan 21, 2015 02:43
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Yarbald posted:I absolutely love pointing this out to people who ramble on about Big Pharma pushing vaccines for profit. They don't even realize they're supporting Wakefield in effect, who was guilty of doing exactly what they're raging about Big Pharma doing. Of course the biggest difference is that Wakefield's study was fabricated bullshit from the very beginning and deliberately so. The guy was specifically setting out to demolish his main competitor in any way possible and didn't give a poo poo that he was literally lying to sell an inferior product. Big Pharma isn't perfect by any means but Wakefield was way worse than they are.
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Jan 21, 2015 02:51
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Yarbald posted:I absolutely love pointing this out to people who ramble on about Big Pharma pushing vaccines for profit. They don't even realize they're supporting Wakefield in effect, who was guilty of doing exactly what they're raging about Big Pharma doing. You don't even have to go that far. Just point out that "big pharma'" owns a huge chunk of the herbal remedy/supplement market, and the part they don't own is owned by other major corporations. And the ones that are not are major corporations onto themselves. Boiron is a multimillion dollar multinational that has reported a healthy profit margin of almost 13%, almost identical to Merck's.
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Jan 21, 2015 05:16
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http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/...lFlowFB_CTBrandsome idiot posted:"I'm not a doctor so I can't say, but that seems extreme to me," one parent said. "I mean, I had the measles and I think I was out for three days." I'm not a physicist, but gravity seems a little extreme to me. I mean...isn't it just as likely that there is a giant magnet in the earth, and we are just held in place because of the metal in our bodies? Also lizard people.
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Jan 21, 2015 18:39
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