Eastern Europe: Poland rip in pis

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Eastern Europe: Poland rip in pis

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; This does not make sense when, again, aggregate indicia also indicate improvements. The belief that things are worse is false. It remains false.

Ardennes posted:

The most powerful philosopher in history, as in a billionaire interested in history?

His degrees are in philosophy, and the theories of economics he's used to become a billionaire are all based on his philosophical work, which is a heavily modified version of the work of Karl Popper, whom he studied under. His big charitable arm, the Open Society Institute, is named for one of Popper's most famous works, The Open Society and its Enemies. Basically, he's the one shining exception to the stereotype of philosophers as poor/unemployable.

Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Jan 18, 2015

# ? Jan 18, 2015 18:56

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 4, 2024 12:44

Smerdyakov: Jul 8, 2008

Ardennes posted:

The most powerful philosopher in history, as in a billionaire interested in history?

Yeah... I dunno what he's talking about. Philosopher !== philosophy degree, in much the same way my political science degree does not make me a head of state. For most powerful philosopher I'd go with Mao, who was a triple threat of most powerful philosopher, most powerful poet, and most powerful fashion designer.

Smerdyakov fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jan 18, 2015

# ? Jan 18, 2015 18:57

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Discendo Vox posted:

His degrees are in philosophy, and the theories of economics he's used to become a billionaire are all based on his philosophical work, which is a heavily modified version of the work of Karl Popper, whom he studied under. His big charitable arm, the Open Society Institute, is named for one of Popper's most famous works, The Open Society and its Enemies.

So Popper gave him the ultimate insight that helped him out in FOREX speculation and inside trading?

To be honest, that video was more all over the place that I thought it was going to be. He talked quite a bit about the Eurocrisis, but doesn't seem to have really found a connection between it and Ukraine beyond debt is hurting both of them. However, in his article if anything, he has talked about taking funds that were designed to help Eurozone economies in crisis for Ukraine.

Also, the idea of sanctions sort of tip toes around the bit about what if makes nationalism in Russia even worse.

Ardennes fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Jan 18, 2015

# ? Jan 18, 2015 19:08

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; This does not make sense when, again, aggregate indicia also indicate improvements. The belief that things are worse is false. It remains false.

Ardennes posted:

So Popper gave him the ultimate insight that helped him out in FOREX speculation and inside trading?

Yes, actually- well, I don't know about the inside trading part, but his specific theory of feedback loops in market value perception is apparently very explicitly philosophy, based on developing, then Popperian ideas. That was apparently how he made his first billions (the caveat is I haven't read his early writing-I'm going off of wikipedia).

I should be clear that although I'm a massive Popper fan, I don't know much about Soros's theories, and what I've encountered of his institute's work makes me squeamish at best. Popper talked about society getting improved through "piecemeal social engineering" on small parts of large, complex systems, very tentatively- OSI, by my understanding, targets hotspot issues with a goal of major social change. They're often not very effective, but it's a much riskier approach, and it feeds the other side of any conflict they get involved with a narrative. (this is part of why right wing folks in the US freak out about Soros being part of the one world government). For example, OSI apparently helped coordinate and finance the Ferguson protests to the tune of $33 million. Was it effective, did it matter? Hard to say, but it's on the front page of the daily mail.

Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Jan 18, 2015

# ? Jan 18, 2015 19:16

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Discendo Vox posted:

Yes, actually- well, I don't know about the inside trading part, but his specific theory of feedback loops in market value perception is apparently very explicitly philosophy, based on developing, then Popperian ideas. That was apparently how he made his first billions (the caveat is I haven't read his early writing-I'm going off of wikipedia).

Making money by using philosophical ideas (even if it is true) doesn't make him a philosopher though, he is a powerful man that presumably understands philosophy. Anyway you are making a case for Karl Popper not him.

Besides, philosophy, I don't know if I would exactly be singing the highest praises for Soros anyway he has conducted plenty of dirt over the years himself.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 19:21

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; This does not make sense when, again, aggregate indicia also indicate improvements. The belief that things are worse is false. It remains false.

Ardennes posted:

Making money by using philosophical ideas (even if it is true) doesn't make him a philosopher though, he is a powerful man that presumably understands philosophy. Anyway you are making a case for Karl Popper not him.

Besides, philosophy, I don't know if I would exactly be singing the highest praises for Soros anyway he has conducted plenty of dirt over the years himself.

Well, the philosophical ideas were his own, and he continues to write on them and develop an influential philosophy of his own design. I'm not sure what other criteria he would need to meet.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 19:23

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Discendo Vox posted:

Well, the philosophical ideas were his own, and he continues to write on them and develop an influential philosophy of his own design. I'm not sure what other criteria he would need to meet.

If anything he seems like Popper did the heavy lifting in that regard, I haven't heard of Soros himself making major contributions to the philosophy, at least according to other philosophers. He did study philosophy at one time, and then made a lot of money...I will give you that.

That said, a lot of other major figures were pushing the idea of liberal democracy and free market capitalism across that period as well.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 19:27

Lucy Heartfilia: May 31, 2012

Yeah. He is one of the most powerful persons alive right now and he is also a philosopher. Most powerful philosopher implies more than that though.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 19:39

Runaktla: Feb 21, 2007; by Hand Knit

I couldn't watch the George Soros video... takes him too long to make a point and he's not saying anything new. I'm of course pro-get Russia out of Ukraine but I doubt I'd be persuaded by him if I wasn't already.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 19:51

Warcabbit: Apr 26, 2008; Wedge Regret

Discendo Vox posted:

For example, OSI apparently helped coordinate and finance the Ferguson protests to the tune of $33 billion.

...

I'm just going to let this statement float here and let everyone see it.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 20:00

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Runaktla posted:

I couldn't watch the George Soros video... takes him too long to make a point and he's not saying anything new. I'm of course pro-get Russia out of Ukraine but I doubt I'd be persuaded by him if I wasn't already.

He shouldn't have mentioned the Eurocrisis period, it sort of complicates the point he is trying to make. Is it a video about Ukraine or the EU unable to achieve its goals?

# ? Jan 18, 2015 20:02

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; This does not make sense when, again, aggregate indicia also indicate improvements. The belief that things are worse is false. It remains false.

Warcabbit posted:

...

I'm just going to let this statement float here and let everyone see it.

Whoops, shoulda been an "m". Yeah, it's the daily mail, but it is the sort of thing ~~OSI~~OSF does.

Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Jan 18, 2015

# ? Jan 18, 2015 20:13

Dilkington: Aug 6, 2010; "Al mio amore Dilkington, Gennaro"

Surely Stalin was the most powerful philosopher. He had a better military than Mao, more nukes, while alive he had more influence both amongst his enemies and other communist movements in the west, and I'm going to guess that the PRC's GDP never surpassed the USSR's during Mao's lifetime. Congratulations Iosef.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 20:17

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Discendo Vox posted:

I should be clear that although I'm a massive Popper fan, I don't know much about Soros's theories, and what I've encountered of his institute's work makes me squeamish at best. Popper talked about society getting improved through "piecemeal social engineering" on small parts of large, complex systems, very tentatively- OSI, by my understanding, targets hotspot issues with a goal of major social change. They're often not very effective, but it's a much riskier approach, and it feeds the other side of any conflict they get involved with a narrative. (this is part of why right wing folks in the US freak out about Soros being part of the one world government). For example, OSI apparently helped coordinate and finance the Ferguson protests to the tune of $33 million. Was it effective, did it matter? Hard to say, but it's on the front page of the daily mail.

The way I see it, he is a social liberal that believes social tinkering should happen solely within a liberal model (which goes very much with Popper) and that his emphasis on civil society is very much rooted in it. So he concentrates on political liberties, press liberties and anti-corruption. However, like most liberals he has a considerable blind spot on the roots of economic inequality.

It makes sense Republicans (and other conservatives) dislike him though.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 20:26

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; This does not make sense when, again, aggregate indicia also indicate improvements. The belief that things are worse is false. It remains false.

Ardennes posted:

The way I see it, he is a social liberal that believes social tinkering should happen solely within a liberal model (which goes very much with Popper) and that his emphasis on civil society is very much rooted in it. So he concentrates on political liberties, press liberties and anti-corruption. However, like most liberals he has a considerable blind spot on the roots of economic inequality.

It makes sense Republicans (and other conservatives) dislike him though.

It helps that he's a fantastic target. Wealthy, Western Jewish investment banker type that directly intervenes in conflicts with money via a network of organizations? It's a propagandist's dream. I'm kinda amazed his name hasn't come up more in Russian propaganda so far- though with this added publicity, I'm betting it will start happening.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 20:36

fatherboxx: Mar 25, 2013

Discendo Vox posted:

It helps that he's a fantastic target. Wealthy, Western Jewish investment banker type that directly intervenes in conflicts with money via a network of organizations? It's a propagandist's dream. I'm kinda amazed his name hasn't come up more in Russian propaganda so far- though with this added publicity, I'm betting it will start happening.

He was a big boogeyman waaay back, I think during the revolution in Georgia and the first, "orange" Maidan, a lot of conspiracy theorist blamed him for that.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 20:39

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Russians have released a statement about their strives to abide Minsk agreements, about "silence" mode they've requested on January 15, and about removal of heavy artillery from front lines.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 21:16

Warcabbit: Apr 26, 2008; Wedge Regret

Discendo Vox posted:

Whoops, shoulda been an "m". Yeah, it's the daily mail, but it is the sort of thing ~~OSI~~OSF does.

33 Million Dollars.

I've got to ask, where did it go? Who got this money?
Are iPod chargers _that_ expensive?

# ? Jan 18, 2015 21:53

HUGE PUBES A PLUS: Apr 30, 2005

kalstrams posted:

Russians have released a statement about their strives to abide Minsk agreements, about "silence" mode they've requested on January 15, and about removal of heavy artillery from front lines.

This sounds like it's in line with what RT and Sputnik news both reported earlier. If it's true that Putin ordered the heavy artillery back, then this is the Kremlin confirming they have troops in Ukraine, and they're losing the fight in Donetsk. The Minsk ceasefire only works when both sides adhere to it.

This image shows Russian Marines are at Donetsk Airport, which apparently is under militant control now.

https://twitter.com/rfcnf/status/556890967597666304

HUGE PUBES A PLUS fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Jan 18, 2015

# ? Jan 18, 2015 22:02

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:

This sounds like it's in line with what RT and Sputnik news both reported earlier. If it's true that Putin ordered the heavy artillery back, then this is the Kremlin confirming they have troops in Ukraine, and they're losing the fight in Donetsk. The Minsk ceasefire only works when both sides adhere to it.

No, it's Kremlin asking both sides to remove heavy weaponry from front lines.

Edit: To be exact, they say that Ukrainians have to abide agreements and that they will then do their best to exert influence on separatists for them to do the same, as a gesture of good will.

cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Jan 18, 2015

# ? Jan 18, 2015 22:04

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; This does not make sense when, again, aggregate indicia also indicate improvements. The belief that things are worse is false. It remains false.

Warcabbit posted:

33 Million Dollars.

I've got to ask, where did it go? Who got this money?
Are iPod chargers _that_ expensive?

I have no clue. It's the right wing press, so the details aren't exactly well-sourced- I'll read the Washington Times article (ugh) that apparently is the root journalistic source of this and see if they actually provide more information.

edit: I just read the "article", and, after peeling off the rhetoric and froth, it looks like OSF helped local protest groups organize and form a coalition group with a more consistent messaging apparatus. That said, the 33 million is a total of all contributions OSF made to the groups directly involved that year- values ranging from a couple million to around 150k.

The coalition group they refer to is called "Hands Up Coalition", which appears to have changed its name to "Hands Up United". The funding for HUU is actually really weird- the website says it's "fiscally administered" by Environmentalism Through Inspiration and Non-Violent Action, which basically has all the markings of a shell organization- the only group registered under that name has minimal financial throughputs and is in malibu. That's pretty common practice on both sides of the aisle for large political funding groups, so don't read too much into it.

OSF is kinda like the Pentagon of left-leaning policy advocacy- way too much money to remain efficient, an impossible organizational structure, and a very hands-on approach that produces wildly variable results.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 22:13

Pimpmust: Oct 1, 2008

kalstrams posted:

So, purportedly, 2 MKTK-1A vehicles have been sighted in Donetsk. Here is what is claimed to be photo of one of them.

There's been previous mentions of russian sigint and jamming trucks at work (making it hard to even use military communications), which makes me doubt that feed with the guy who supposedly managed to get full seperatist casualty reports from open radio chatter on a daily basis.

These guys got way worse opsec:

The whole "Putin requests to pull back heavy weapons" is probably just empty bullshit playing to an audience, with no actual intention to withdraw any equipment (and maybe a faint hope that the Ukrainians will fall for it / agree to it).

Pimpmust fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Jan 18, 2015

# ? Jan 18, 2015 22:20

drilldo squirt: Aug 18, 2006; a beautiful, soft meat sack; Clapping Larry

You know that they make ew to not work on their own stuff, right?

# ? Jan 18, 2015 22:26

Pimpmust: Oct 1, 2008

drilldo squirt posted:

You know that they make ew to not work on their own stuff, right?

I didn't claim they were jamming *their own* stuff, but degrading the Ukrainians ability to chat/listen in, because those SIGINT trucks seem to be legit Russian military (and not of the unskilled conscript variety) rather than the mercenary crowd they got (mostly) grunting it up.

But maybe the Ukrainian guys are just that good that they can penetrate all that, intercept and decrypt communications of several different units and then leak the information on a daily basis to some blogger. It doesn't seem very plausible, that's all.

Pimpmust fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Jan 18, 2015

# ? Jan 18, 2015 22:30

L-Boned: Sep 11, 2001; by FactsAreUseless

HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:

News sources say Putin sent Poroshenko a withdrawal plan to get heavy artillery out of Donbass. Poroshenko rejected this plan and went on full assault. The sources are all Russian - RT, Sputnik etc.

Nice to see a leader with a spine.

# ? Jan 18, 2015 23:47

HUGE PUBES A PLUS: Apr 30, 2005

How do you know the economy in Russia is tanking? Nobody's talking about it.

http://www.businessinsider.com/russias-economic-crisis-has-officially-arrived-2015-1

quote:

Judging by the lack of economic news in Russia's media, a crisis has arrived.

Just as in Soviet days, state television does not report facts, it conceals them. The official picture is dominated by the war in Ukraine (fuelled by America), Ukraine's economic collapse (ignored by America), and Russia's achievements in sport, ballet and other spheres (envied by America).

But whereas television does not mention the economy, ordinary Russians have been busily changing rubled into dollars, buying anything that has not gone up in price and making contingency plans.

In the first two weeks of the year, when Russia was on holiday, the ruble fell by 17.5% against the dollar. Inflation is up into double figures. The price of oil, Russia's main export, has slid below $50 a barrel, prompting economists to revise their forecasts down. GDP is now expected to contract by between 3% and 5% this year. Russia's credit rating is moving inexorably towards junk.

The government's Zen-like calm betrays a lack of strategy. Russia's president, Vladimir Putin, is shown on television receiving positive reports from regional governors. Yet the fall in oil prices to below $50 a barrel will cost the state budget, which was calculated on the basis of $100 a barrel, 3 trillion rubles ($45 billion), or 20% of planned revenues, according to Anton Siluanov, the finance minister.

He was already planning to lop 10% off the budget, but may now have to cut further. Even if pensions and salaries are raised by 5%, double-digit inflation means that real incomes will decline for the first time since Mr Putin came to power in 2000.

The Kremlin hopes to ride out the crisis, as it did in 2008-09 when GDP contracted by 7.5%. Then the government was able to stimulate demand by increasing public spending and saving indebted firms. It no longer has that option. Russia's reserves are lower than they were four years ago and may last only for a year and a half, at best. Worse, the government has lost credibility.

An increase in interest rates to 17% in December was intended to defend the ruble, but it has not worked. Russians have lost faith in the currency and are starting to withdraw deposits, argues Natalia Orlova, chief economist at Alfa Bank.

A look at Russia's 2014.

The ruble's fall would have been even greater had it not been for the Kremlin telling exporters to sell foreign-currency revenues while also warning large firms not to buy. Yet whatever liquidity the central bank supplies to Russian banks, the money finds its way into the foreign-currency market, putting more pressure on the ruble.

Any injection of liquidity may thus end up not stimulating domestic demand but merely increasing capital outflows. The only way to support the ruble is to limit the provision of liquidity to banks; but that in turn would put banks under pressure. German Gref, the head of Sberbank, Russia's largest state bank, is reportedly warning that a currency crisis could become a "massive" banking crisis.

Faced with capital outflows and falling oil prices, lack of access to foreign markets and its own demographic problems, Russia is unlikely to come out of this crisis fast. Its hope that devaluation would spur import substitution, as after the 1998 default, and so drive growth is unrealistic.

At the time Russia was substituting basic goods that could be produced on spare, outdated equipment left behind by the Soviet economy. The things that Russia imports today cannot rapidly be replaced domestically. That would demand investment which few are willing to risk.

alexei kudrinAlexei Kudrin

Alexei Kudrin, a former finance minister, and Evsey Gurvich, an economist, argue that Russia's economy cannot be repaired by monetary or fiscal measures. Even weak institutions are a secondary issue. At the heart of Russia's malaise is the weakening of market forces and suppression of competition, which means there is no longer much of a market economy.

The expansion of the state means that, although Russia no longer has Gosplan, its economy is dominated by state or quasi-state firms whose revenues depend not on their economic efficiency but on political contacts. Skewed incentives as well as corruption and a lack of property rights have forced the most efficient companies out of the market, strengthening the position of parasitic and badly managed state firms. Falling oil prices have revealed these defects, not caused them.

As Mr Kudrin and Mr Gurvich explain, Russia's exceptional growth between 1998 and 2008 was essentially imported: it was down to easy money, brought about by rising oil prices and cheap credit. This fuelled consumption that was satisfied by imports and an increase in domestic output.

The government was busy redistributing rents rather than restructuring or modernising the economy. Private firms and the Kremlin opted for quick profits rather than long-term investments. Even in 2009 the government's goal was to minimise the political fallout of the financial crisis, rather than to make the economy more competitive.

Russia's only way out now is to restructure the economy in order to restore the role of markets. Twenty-five years ago this transition was made possible by the collapse of the Soviet Union and change in the Kremlin. In an implicit message to Mr Putin, Mr Kudrin argues that it could now be managed under this presidency, but with a different government. Mr Putin is unconvinced. Even as he ponders his options, the economy continues to slide, whatever the television may not say.

# ? Jan 19, 2015 01:00

Scapegoat: Sep 18, 2004

L-Boned posted:

Nice to see a leader with a spine.

Agreed however if Putin decides to up the ante like last time Ukraine has no hope.

# ? Jan 19, 2015 03:07

Sergiu64: May 21, 2014

Scapegoat posted:

Agreed however if Putin decides to up the ante like last time Ukraine has no hope.

No hope for Russia to avoid even more sanctions more like.

# ? Jan 19, 2015 03:28

C.M. Kruger: Oct 28, 2013

Pimpmust posted:

And the UA still seem to be only employing their upgraded T-64 models, no T-84s. Guessing they are holding those in reserve/defending Kiev.

They probably don't have enough of them to commit any. Last I heard they only had enough T-84s to form a company, and I'd hazard a second or third company if they diverted the ones that Thailand had ordered and got limited production going 2014.

As I understand it they never produced a large amount of them before 2014 due to the cost and pro-Russian governments, and additionally the T-84's diesel engine uses parts from the Yaroslavl Motor Factory (part of GAZ) in Russia, which according to stuff I heard back in June/July was under pressure to stop providing engines/parts.

Plus the Malyshev factory and KMDB are in Kharkiv, meaning there could be further delays if the government decides to move the facilities to the east to protect them, though I doubt that would happen unless things got really bad.

# ? Jan 19, 2015 03:56

Smerdyakov: Jul 8, 2008

Sergiu64 posted:

No hope for Russia to avoid even more sanctions more like.

No hope for those who think the EU is going to approve more sanctions, more like.

# ? Jan 19, 2015 04:09

Pimpmust: Oct 1, 2008

C.M. Kruger posted:

They probably don't have enough of them to commit any. Last I heard they only had enough T-84s to form a company, and I'd hazard a second or third company if they diverted the ones that Thailand had ordered and got limited production going 2014.

As I understand it they never produced a large amount of them before 2014 due to the cost and pro-Russian governments, and additionally the T-84's diesel engine uses parts from the Yaroslavl Motor Factory (part of GAZ) in Russia, which according to stuff I heard back in June/July was under pressure to stop providing engines/parts.

Plus the Malyshev factory and KMDB are in Kharkiv, meaning there could be further delays if the government decides to move the facilities to the east to protect them, though I doubt that would happen unless things got really bad.

Interesting, I thought there was an article claiming they did redirect some export-marked T-84. Have there been any sightings of T-80s? Ukraine supposedly got a couple of hundred in service, but the wiki doesn't seem entirely updated.

# ? Jan 19, 2015 06:14

ass struggle: Dec 25, 2012; by Athanatos

whelp day broke on Donbass and the shelling has started again.

e: The camera got taken out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo7CkdBe3Rc

ass struggle fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Jan 19, 2015

# ? Jan 19, 2015 06:30

HUGE PUBES A PLUS: Apr 30, 2005

Navalny says if it weren't for sanctions, Russia would already be in Odessa.

http://daily.com.ua/world/19-01-2015203269

quote:

With regard to the opposition leader Alexei Navalny accepted measure of restraint to house arrest - a measure which he does not comply. January 15, he gave his first interview by phone foreign editions.

"I found myself in a strange situation: I'm under house arrest, but does not execute the measure. This ruling is illegal, and I also acted illegally by cutting my electronic bracelet. The police and people in civilian clothes constantly following me, but I can leave my house . On Wednesday I was briefly arrested and then released. Now I'm in my office. Three years ago I found myself in a similar situation ...
This time it is much more difficult, because my brother in prison. ... Oleg - not a political activist . His only fault is that he's my brother. And the authorities have turned it into a hostage "- said Navalny.

The thing with Yves Rocher fabricated. All decisions made by the judges depend on Vladimir Putin ... My activities harmful to the Russian authorities and Mr Putin personally. In Russia, allowed to talk about democracy, freedom, general terms. I'm talking about corruption and call names . I'm investigating cases involving Putin, his family, his loved ones. It is forbidden. It makes me an enemy of the state ", - said Navalny.

According to Alexey Navalny, Putin's position in the international arena, no doubt weakened. But in Russia, the situation is quite different. Precisely because he felt that his position weakened, Putin launched a war provoked anti-Western sentiment, strengthened propaganda. But it supports a significant part of public opinion.

Bulk replied to the question of Western sanctions. "Sanctions and the poor economic situation in general detrimental to the Russian people. But without any of these sanctions, the Russian army would have in Odessa. The sanctions are putting pressure on Putin and internally.

They contribute to its weakening. While it pushes him on the defensive: the tightening of political repression, suppression of the media, the continuation of war in Ukraine. As for the long-term prospects, I can not say anything. Putin has only one ambitious plan: to die in his bed, having been president for life of Russia. I think that in the future Russia will increasingly follow the path of Belarus. Nationalism will grow "- believes Bulk.

According to the opposition, the Kremlin can not participate in the peaceful settlement of the war in Ukraine. Ukraine should not be allowed to win. It would be extremely dangerous for both Russian and other countries in the region.

With regard to the Crimea, it is a long time will not be returned to Ukraine. "I understand that my statement did not like the Ukrainians, but it is a realistic position. Before thinking about the return, it is necessary to hold a new referendum, it is necessary to take away the Crimean residents handed out Russian passports to them. If you do everything according to the law, it is difficult and time-consuming" .

Bulk outlined its position on the Charlie Hebdo. "I am against censorship, himself a victim of censorship. My site is not available in Russia. This is a bad decision - to interfere with the [Russian] newspapers published the cartoons. But the demonstration: simultaneously with the development of nationalist rhetoric Putin promotes religious fundamentalism, especially the Orthodox, but Islam in Chechnya "- said the opposition leader.

# ? Jan 19, 2015 12:52

Dandywalken: Feb 11, 2014

sparatuvs posted:

whelp day broke on Donbass and the shelling has started again.

e: The camera got taken out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo7CkdBe3Rc

While reports of Russian equipment showing up were coming in? What a tragedy

# ? Jan 19, 2015 22:08

Nonsense: Jan 26, 2007

Scapegoat posted:

Agreed however if Putin decides to up the ante like last time Ukraine has no hope.

We will not allow him to take the whole country regardless of what Kremlin apologists believe.

# ? Jan 19, 2015 22:13

lollontee: Nov 4, 2014; Can't post for 10 years!

Nonsense posted:

We will not allow him to take the whole country regardless of what Kremlin apologists believe.

We will meet at the front lines, comrade!

# ? Jan 19, 2015 23:25

Scapegoat: Sep 18, 2004

Nonsense posted:

We will not allow him to take the whole country regardless of what Kremlin apologists believe.

I was thinking more moving in the armed forces to destroy any Ukrainian offensive. I can't imagine the West doing much except taking PayPass away from some of Putin's cronies.

# ? Jan 19, 2015 23:56

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Hmm. Rumour goes right now that two tactical battalion groups (around 1.5 - 2 thousand people) of Russian troops have entered Ukraine, but I'm not seeing any semblance of proof, at all.

# ? Jan 20, 2015 00:02

OhYeah: Jan 20, 2007; 1. Currently the most prevalent form of decision-making in the western world

2. While you are correct in saying that the society owns

3. You have not for a second demonstrated here why

4. I love the way that you equate "state" with "bureaucracy". Is that how you really feel about the state

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/putins-way/

It's pretty interesting how close Putin came to being in jail for large-scale corruption, instead of being the president of the country with arguably the best nuclear weapons in the world.

# ? Jan 20, 2015 00:09

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 4, 2024 12:44

HUGE PUBES A PLUS: Apr 30, 2005

kalstrams posted:

Hmm. Rumour goes right now that two tactical battalion groups (around 1.5 - 2 thousand people) of Russian troops have entered Ukraine, but I'm not seeing any semblance of proof, at all.

Here's CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/19/europe/ukraine-conflict/index.html?sr=tw011915russiaforcesenterukraine430pVODtopLink

quote:

Kiev, Ukraine (CNN)Russian military forces and equipment have entered Ukraine, Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk says, according to a report from Ukraine's state-run media on Monday.

"I have just spoken with the national defense and security council secretary. Ukrainian military intelligence confirm the fact military personnel and equipment have been transferred from Russia to Ukraine," the prime minister is quoted as saying.

He continued: "Tanks, GRAD multiple rocket systems, BUK and SMERCH systems, radio electronic intelligence systems are not sold at local Donetsk street markets. Only the Russian army and Defense Ministry have them."

The prime minister's spokeswoman, Olga Lappo, confirmed to CNN the quotes attributed to Yatsenyuk are accurate.

Russian officials could not be immediately reached for a response.

The report came a day after protesters gathered at Kiev's Independence Square to march for peace,

Yatsenyuk and Ukraine's President were among those who attended the rally, which had as its slogan, "I am Volnovakha," in memory of the 13 passengers who died near the city of Volnovakha after their bus was hit by artillery fire on January 13.

"We will remember every Ukrainian hero who gave (life) for the sake of independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine," President Petro Poroshenko said. "We will not give up a single meter of our land."

Meanwhile, fighting in the east continued.

Government forces and pro-Russia rebels have been battling for control of the eastern Donetsk and Luhansk regions since April, after Russia annexed Ukraine's southeastern Crimea region the previous month.

Pavel Gubarev, former people's governor of Novorussyia, has been kidnapped, according to his press service.

http://www.interfax.ru/world/418730

quote:

Moscow. On 19 January. INTERFAX.RU - In Donetsk, kidnapped the leader of "New Russia", the former "people's governor" Donbass Pavel Gubarev claim in his press service.

"Paul Gubarev kidnapped. What happened to him and where he is, we really, at this moment we do not know. It happened a few hours ago," - said on Monday evening, "Interfax" spokesman Paul Gubarev.

On the eve of a number of Ukrainian media reported the arrest of Gubarev.

Last year, 13 October, the car in which there was Gubarev, was shot in the Donbass region in snow and crashed into a pole, then its "people's governor" unconscious was taken to hospital in Rostov-on-Don, where he woke up to the next day. Later, the security services detained several suspects DNI on charges of attempted Gubarev. In November Gubarev was discharged from the hospital and returned to Rostov to Donetsk.

Since the beginning of the political crisis in Ukraine Donbass Gubarev led militia, and in early March during the meeting was elected the so-called "people's governor" of the Donetsk region and demanded a referendum on the status of the region. With the participation of Gubarev protesters repeatedly seized the regional administration building.

March 6, 2014 Gubarev was arrested and Ukrainian security services arrested on Part 1 of article 109 (actions aimed at seizing state power), part 2 of article 110 (encroachment on the territorial integrity and inviolability of Ukraine) and st.341 Criminal Code of Ukraine (capture the state or public buildings or structures).

In May 2014 Gubarev among other prisoners were exchanged for three officers of "Alpha", and in June 2014 declared wanted in Ukraine. Shortly after his release from custody, he announced the creation of the "New Russia" and led it.

HUGE PUBES A PLUS fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Jan 20, 2015

# ? Jan 20, 2015 00:25

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Eastern Europe: Poland rip in pis

«‹›749 »