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notaspy posted:But we need those places to: E) Ensure a continual supply of basically slave labour for the western/northern European nations.
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Jan 19, 2015 15:27
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notaspy posted:But we need those places to: I kinda agree with the notion that the EU needs to stop expanding. They should've stopped with the 2004 run. The Baltics and Poland are doing fairly okay, but besides those, I'm not sure if there have been any major success stories. We need to focus on raising the median standard of living in the EU before taking on more countries. And there definitely need to be more stringent policies on eradicating governmental corruption in the new accession states.
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Jan 19, 2015 15:35
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awesome-express posted:I kinda agree with the notion that the EU needs to stop expanding. They should've stopped with the 2004 run. The Baltics and Poland are doing fairly okay, but besides those, I'm not sure if there have been any major success stories. We need to focus on raising the median standard of living in the EU before taking on more countries. And there definitely need to be more stringent policies on eradicating governmental corruption in the new accession states. But if we stop expanding the Russians win. Do you want the Russians to win? awesome-express wants the Russians to win. awesome-express hates freedom.
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Jan 19, 2015 15:38
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Zephro posted:Those Romania points are interesting. I do kind of think that EU enlargement has become a bit of a self-licking ice cream and that we've ended up admitting a bunch of places with pretty dodgy politics, finances or cultural practises into the Union that maybe we shouldn't have.
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Jan 19, 2015 15:40
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Zephro posted:Those Romania points are interesting. I do kind of think that EU enlargement has become a bit of a self-licking ice cream and that we've ended up admitting a bunch of places with pretty dodgy politics, finances or cultural practises into the Union that maybe we shouldn't have. Please point to a country that fits none of the above descriptions. Take as long as you need.
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Jan 19, 2015 15:44
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Ddraig posted:I've been wanting to get a job with the local council in something for a while, but their vacancies are loving frustrating in that 99% of all advertised jobs are 'only available to current employees or contractors of Cardiff County Council" Sign up for Cardiff Council's temping agency, Cardiff Works. When you're positioned somewhere you can apply for all the jobs. Junkenstein fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Jan 19, 2015 |
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Jan 19, 2015 15:52
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Zephro posted:Those Romania points are interesting. I do kind of think that EU enlargement has become a bit of a self-licking ice cream and that we've ended up admitting a bunch of places with pretty dodgy politics, finances or cultural practises into the Union that maybe we shouldn't have. I agree, they shouldn't have let the UK in
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Jan 19, 2015 15:55
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Gilganixon posted:I agree, they shouldn't have let the UK in De Gaulle was in charge of France when this whole thing started. Just saying.
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Jan 19, 2015 15:56
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Dabir posted:Please point to a country that fits none of the above descriptions. Take as long as you need.
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Jan 19, 2015 16:03
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For poo poo n' giggles, let's just get Ukraine in with no pre-accession infrastructure and government reform. Dirt cheap labor and hot women are a nice bonus. Take that, Putin 
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Jan 19, 2015 16:06
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awesome-express posted:I kinda agree with the notion that the EU needs to stop expanding. They should've stopped with the 2004 run. The Baltics and Poland are doing fairly okay, but besides those, I'm not sure if there have been any major success stories. We need to focus on raising the median standard of living in the EU before taking on more countries. And there definitely need to be more stringent policies on eradicating governmental corruption in the new accession states. I think they should have stopped before 2004
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Jan 19, 2015 16:14
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Blue Star Error posted:I think they should have stopped before 2004 That too. Or they should focus on one country at a time. Not sure how Greece managed to get through.
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Jan 19, 2015 16:14
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awesome-express posted:That too. Or they should focus on one country at a time. Not sure how Greece managed to get through. They got into the eurozone by having the country's leaders and senior public servants lie through their teeth about the state of the economy and public finances. They're not all that bad as an EU member state, however.
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Jan 19, 2015 16:21
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awesome-express posted:For poo poo n' giggles, let's just get Ukraine in with no pre-accession infrastructure and government reform. Dirt cheap labor and hot women are a nice bonus. Take that, Putin they also knock out solid Dota players we are quids in
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Jan 19, 2015 16:23
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Didn't the Greeks hire Goldman Sachs to massage their books? I don't remember where I read this who knows if it is accurate enjoy this unsubstantiated rumour.
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Jan 19, 2015 16:36
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Phoon posted:Didn't the Greeks hire Goldman Sachs to massage their books? I don't remember where I read this who knows if it is accurate enjoy this unsubstantiated rumour. Goldman also approached them again with another scheme smack bang in the middle of the crisis. A few, sources, for you. That last one is pretty lol. tooterfish fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Jan 19, 2015 |
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Jan 19, 2015 16:44
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Phoon posted:Didn't the Greeks hire Goldman Sachs to massage their books? I don't remember where I read this who knows if it is accurate enjoy this unsubstantiated rumour. Yes in order to meet the criteria to enter the Euro. It has been admitted by the Greek government.
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Jan 19, 2015 16:47
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LemonDrizzle posted:UKIP, representing the country's best and brightest. I actually ran across one of these at work a few weeks back - bloke totally believed that UKIP will have a majority in the next election. I started attempting to explain FPTP and just gave up.
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Jan 19, 2015 17:12
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Although to be honest, even if the kippers' gains are small (as they almost certainly will be), a Con/UKIP coalition is not as far outside the realm of possibility as we might hope. This does not look to be an election where anyone's getting a comfortable majority.
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Jan 19, 2015 17:24
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It'll really depend on how many seats they get. If they reach double digits they'll be in with a shot at a coalition, but shy of that I'm not sure they can bring enough to the table for Cameron to think them worth dealing with, because their demands are going to be insane either way, and I don't know if they have the total lack of spine that Clegg et al do, and be willing to forget all their policies in exchange for getting to do what Cameron says. Plus Farage would love it because he could say "Look, the White people want us in power, but we're still being kept out!" or some such bollocks. Then again this is the Great British Publictm we're talking about, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if we ended up with a UKIP/BNP coalition or something equally horrific. e; I'm sorry, I of course meant "British people" not the "white people", my statements and those of numberless other party members at all levels in no way reflect the opinions of my party 
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Jan 19, 2015 17:30
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Oberleutnant posted:There should be a UKMT drinking game for the debates. The rule is you take a swig of whatever you're drinking every time a participant says something reprehensible or demonstrably false. But I'll drown  Zephro posted:Those Romania points are interesting. I do kind of think that EU enlargement has become a bit of a self-licking ice cream and that we've ended up admitting a bunch of places with pretty dodgy politics, finances or cultural practises into the Union that maybe we shouldn't have. Turns out domino theory is true, they just fingered the wrong ideology 
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Jan 19, 2015 17:51
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Is it guaranteed that the ukips and the tories wouldn't work together though? They're pretty much the same ideologically, it's just that ukip reflects the more right-wing side of the tory party, so they already have natural allies (and these are the people Cameron is desperate to keep on-side as well). Their messages aren't any different - ukip wants to clear out immigrants and have an EU referendum, Cameron wants to clear out immigrants with less strident language and is constantly promising a referendum, even if he personally doesn't want to have one. Everything else is pretty much the same low-tax free-market bollocks A coalition is amazing for Farage because it gives him more credibility and legitimacy than any amount of BBC coverage could ever manage. He gets to back tory immigration policy while being the PR firebrand for them, what a character. In fact the whole situation would be like a single party in power, pretending to be two separate parties so they can play good cop bad cop. Who needs the lib dems when the tories themselves can be the nice guys? Cameron himself can spin a coalition as a good thing because nobody seems to care about his constant lies and contradictions and empty rhetoric. He could just talk about bla bla democracy and this is right, we can work together, the british people have voiced their concerns and everyone would go hmm yes. They have no principles to betray - maybe internally there'd be problems with the idea of sharing power, but when it's expedient (and maybe their best option of the lot) it would be an easier sell The sticking point is probably the EU referendum, but Cameron keeps on throwing himself down that slippery slope with breathless promises - it seems like there's so much demand for it in the party that if Farage came along saying GIMME REFERENDUM they'd throw Cameron under a bus before they'd let him back out of an agreement sealing the deal
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Jan 19, 2015 17:54
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Dabir posted:Please point to a country that fits none of the above descriptions. Take as long as you need. Did you sign up with an employment agency yet?
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Jan 19, 2015 17:58
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Mister Adequate posted:Then again this is the Great British Publictm we're talking about, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if we ended up with a UKIP/BNP coalition or something equally horrific. I thought the BNP had disintegrated. They have no chance of getting an MP anyway.
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Jan 19, 2015 18:01
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baka kaba posted:Is it guaranteed that the ukips and the tories wouldn't work together though? They're pretty much the same ideologically, it's just that ukip reflects the more right-wing side of the tory party, so they already have natural allies (and these are the people Cameron is desperate to keep on-side as well). Their messages aren't any different - ukip wants to clear out immigrants and have an EU referendum, Cameron wants to clear out immigrants with less strident language and is constantly promising a referendum, even if he personally doesn't want to have one. Everything else is pretty much the same low-tax free-market bollocks Oh no, I wouldn't guarantee that at all, I think on paper they make excellent natural allies with very few significant policy differences, as long as UKIP can rein in their more strident language. That said, UKIP are powered by precisely that strident language ("just common sense" "only telling the truth" "saying what everyone is thinking" and so forth) and they probably gain more than they lose whenever someone in the party commits a 'gaffe' and uses racial slurs or whatever. By coming into government they're going to have to play ball, and I don't think they really can, which means there's going to be a tipping point where the Tories decide it's not worth the hassle for the extra votes in the Commons. Cameron clearly knows better than to actually hold an EU referendum because we might vote for national suicide, but there's no way UKIP comes into the coalition without a firm agreement on that. As you say though, Farage can probably just go to the party over Cameron's head in that case. Of course, this all hinges very much on all the numbers after the election, and it's possible that UKIP with single-digit seats could be Kingmakers, or that with a healthy double-digit number of MPs they are condemned to parliamentary irrelevance because someone else has a commanding majority. I wouldn't care to place wagers on exactly where my hypothetical "Nope too much trouble" point might rest, that's for sure.
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Jan 19, 2015 18:11
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Mister Adequate posted:It'll really depend on how many seats they get. If they reach double digits they'll be in with a shot at a coalition, but shy of that I'm not sure they can bring enough to the table for Cameron to think them worth dealing with, because their demands are going to be insane either way, and I don't know if they have the total lack of spine that Clegg et al do, and be willing to forget all their policies in exchange for getting to do what Cameron says. Plus Farage would love it because he could say "Look, the White people want us in power, but we're still being kept out!" or some such bollocks. For UKIP to have a chance at coalition then the Tories still need to maintain or enlarge their current seat count, which is something that UKIP will prevent them from doing even before Labour takes some marginals. What is depressing is that FPTP is the only thing stopping a completely batshit right-wing coalition right now. If we had PR then the Tories and UKIP would be by far the largest ideological grouping. FPTP is the only thing that means that a less-lovely Labour government elected with 33% of the vote is realistic. The political left in this country would be utterly hosed if the right was to abandon its irrational love of our broken plurality system. twoot fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Jan 19, 2015 |
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Jan 19, 2015 18:12
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Mister Adequate posted:That said, UKIP are powered by precisely that strident language ("just common sense" "only telling the truth" "saying what everyone is thinking" and so forth) and they probably gain more than they lose whenever someone in the party commits a 'gaffe' and uses racial slurs or whatever. By coming into government they're going to have to play ball, and I don't think they really can, which means there's going to be a tipping point where the Tories decide it's not worth the hassle for the extra votes in the Commons. I'm not really sure about that, the Tories and even Labour have had their share of people saying really terrible stuff, it just gets brushed off as bad apples or people being gauche for voicing it in public. UKIP in government would be like a watershed, and I have no doubt at all that they'd clean house if necessary to sustain this new legitimacy. And they'd still be 'telling it like it is' - that would really be the role of people like Farage in government. An attack dog for the government, but also a nasty element for the Tories to look good next to, someone who'll play the pantomime villain so they can look moderate in everything they do. I mean that's the kind of role that's perfect for him, and the kind of thing he'd enjoy immensely, and the media and public would love it too. Like a more right-wing Boris whose special skill is 'gently caress immigrants and the EU' instead of general clowning. He'd be the only kipper in a post of any significance, but his demands are really only what the Tories want to give anyway, so it's almost all the ukip support and press for free
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Jan 19, 2015 18:31
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twoot posted:For UKIP to have a chance at coalition then the Tories still need to maintain or enlarge their current seat count, which is something that UKIP will prevent them from doing even before Labour takes some marginals. Yes but only if you think with a PR system everyone would vote the same. Greens would get a major boost if people thought it would get them seats and you'd probably get some sort of left coalition actually being not-worthless for the same reason.
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Jan 19, 2015 18:55
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I guess at a very basic level the question is: why is everyone in the country such a vile piece of poo poo? And how do we fix them?
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Jan 19, 2015 18:58
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Regarde Aduck posted:I guess at a very basic level the question is: why is everyone in the country such a vile piece of poo poo? And how do we fix them? Ignorance, and a culture of fear, exacerbated by political and media scapegoats. There isn't really an easy solution.
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Jan 19, 2015 19:07
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namesake posted:Yes but only if you think with a PR system everyone would vote the same. Greens would get a major boost if people thought it would get them seats and you'd probably get some sort of left coalition actually being not-worthless for the same reason. While its true that the parties people vote for might shuffle around, I was thinking in terms of people voting for left/right. Green would probably become a proper force under PR, but their votes would come from Labour or Lib Dem. Overall that pool of available voters may not change much.
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Jan 19, 2015 19:20
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UKMT: why is everyone in the country such a vile piece of poo poo?
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Jan 19, 2015 20:23
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KKKlean Energy posted:UKMT: why is everyone in the country such a vile piece of poo poo? Thatcher. That is always the answer given.
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Jan 19, 2015 20:30
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BigPaddy posted:Thatcher. That is always the answer given. Ah, but why was Thatcher such a vile piece of poo poo?
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Jan 19, 2015 20:39
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Darth Walrus posted:Ah, but why was Thatcher such a vile piece of poo poo? Middle class insecurity.
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Jan 19, 2015 20:39
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twoot posted:For UKIP to have a chance at coalition then the Tories still need to maintain or enlarge their current seat count, which is something that UKIP will prevent them from doing even before Labour takes some marginals. I hadn't really taken that into consideration but you're right, it's more likely UKIP eats Tory votes and both lose (which is why Cameron has suddenly found the virtue of allowing the Greens into the debates). baka kaba posted:I'm not really sure about that, the Tories and even Labour have had their share of people saying really terrible stuff, it just gets brushed off as bad apples or people being gauche for voicing it in public. UKIP in government would be like a watershed, and I have no doubt at all that they'd clean house if necessary to sustain this new legitimacy. And they'd still be 'telling it like it is' - that would really be the role of people like Farage in government. An attack dog for the government, but also a nasty element for the Tories to look good next to, someone who'll play the pantomime villain so they can look moderate in everything they do. I think you might be right about this, actually, I was just thinking they may not be able to clean house depending on how well they can realistically predict and sensibly act upon seats they have a real chance of winning. They don't have safe seats to parachute their safe, restrained people into to ensure those are the ones who get into government, so they might end up with several 'blokes from down the pub' in which case good luck riding herd on that shower. Still, they'd probably get Big Nige to sit down personally with each one in turn and explain why it's very very important to not use racial slurs and what have you, so they might manage it. I think you're mostly correct on this, giving it some thought, and I may have been overstating the problems UKIP could face, especially as continuous horrendous statements from their existing gobshites has done little to discredit them as a group.
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Jan 19, 2015 20:43
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Darth Walrus posted:Ah, but why was Thatcher such a vile piece of poo poo? There is no why. It is axiomatic.
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Jan 19, 2015 20:45
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Ddraig posted:I've been wanting to get a job with the local council in something for a while, but their vacancies are loving frustrating in that 99% of all advertised jobs are 'only available to current employees or contractors of Cardiff County Council" I'm moving to Cardiff soon and this pisses me off no end every time I look on there 
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Jan 19, 2015 21:12
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Don't move to Cardiff, it's terrible.
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Jan 19, 2015 21:13
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KKKlean Energy posted:UKMT: why is everyone in the country such a vile piece of poo poo? Guavanaut posted:Thought I'd wandered into Auspol for a second.
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Jan 19, 2015 21:14
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