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"Saruman, give me back my Orcs!"
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Jan 19, 2015 04:32
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Smoking Crow posted:Who's leading the Romans because Valens would get his rear end kicked by Sauron Russel Crowe.
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Jan 19, 2015 05:46
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Augustus would be dark lord in a year if he had his best pal with him
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Jan 19, 2015 06:16
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Baracula posted:Augustus would be dark lord in a year if he had his best pal with him Augustus: Agrippa, hold the One Ring for me while I turn my back and stand by this precipice over a fiery chasm. Agrippa: Sure thing Boss  several minutes pass Augustus: Okay that's long enough, hand it back to me now. Agrippa: Sure thing Boss
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Jan 19, 2015 06:29
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"You cannot enter here," said Cato, and the huge shadow halted. "Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!" The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter. "Old fool!" Caesar said. "Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it?"
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Jan 19, 2015 08:37
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In yet another unexpected literary crossover, Cato proceeded to filibuster by reciting the entire John Galt speech from Atlas Shrugged, though he was disappointed it was so short.
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Jan 19, 2015 09:06
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Groda posted:How do you? Via the citizenship of your parents or one parent. I had typed a long wall of text, but saying "register office" really says everything that you ever want to know. We have more weight on jus sanguinis here, means that if at least one part of the parents is a citizen, my son will be bestowed with citizenship. Born here but both parents no citizens? Tough luck. Stay here for 8 or 10 years and we'll think about it and let you jump through some hoops. I had to take the birth certificate of my son to the register office in the district authority, with the whole bunch of my and my wife's documents like my certificate of birth, -citizenship and -marriage. They crosscheck with the district authority that you were registered with at your birth and there you go. Births and deaths is something that the register at the church would have done in the days before nation states.
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Jan 19, 2015 11:54
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Disinterested posted:It's better than the usual 'what if knights fought samurai' garbage. Sort of. Well yeah that's dumb, a knight would obliterate a samurai in five seconds so why even have the discussion
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Jan 19, 2015 12:53
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Grand Fromage posted:Well yeah that's dumb, a knight would obliterate a samurai in five seconds so why even have the discussion Clearly you are unfamiliar with the ~superior Japanese sword~.
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Jan 19, 2015 13:08
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Disinterested posted:Clearly you are unfamiliar with the ~superior Japanese sword~.  Glorious Nippon desu~
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Jan 19, 2015 13:32
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Please ignore that samurai adopted European armor as soon as they could get it.
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Jan 19, 2015 15:32
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Arglebargle III posted:Please ignore that samurai adopted European armor as soon as they could get it. Yeah it kinda depends on what era of samurai. Oda Nobunaga's or Hideyoshi's army circa 1590 fighting a war with 1590 Netherlands or Spain would be a lot of fun.
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Jan 19, 2015 15:50
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I can't find anything online that will actually load, but Baha ad-Din is one of the Muslim writers who described the shock of knights with arrows sticking out of them all over, completely unfazed. European armor had no equal and knights were terrifyingly skilled and supremely trained fighters. I will continue making GBS threads on the lumbering brute pop culture depiction of them at any opportunity. Also many (most?) knights were rear end in a top hat thugs. Knights rank very highly on any historical list of people you don't want to gently caress with.
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Jan 19, 2015 16:22
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quote:Did he throw a baby? Maybe he threw a baby. In his defense, his general just made a record 100,000 yard dash and how else are you gonna celebrate other than by spiking the ball?
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Jan 19, 2015 16:23
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Grand Fromage posted:I can't find anything online that will actually load, but Baha ad-Din is one of the Muslim writers who described the shock of knights with arrows sticking out of them all over, completely unfazed. Tell that to the longbowmen. 
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Jan 19, 2015 16:31
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sullat posted:Tell that to the longbowmen. It's the loving horses that are the issue: Battle of Poitiers posted:At the beginning of the battle, the English removed their baggage train leading the French to think they were about to retreat which provoked a hasty charge by the French knights against the archers.[15] According to Froissart, the English attacked the enemy, especially the horses, with a shower of arrows. Geoffrey the Baker writes that the French armour was invulnerable to the English arrows, that the arrowheads either skidded off the armour or shattered on impact.[16] Given the following actions of the archers, it seems likely Baker was correct. The armour on the horses was weaker on the sides and back, so the archers moved to the sides of the cavalry and shot the horses in the flanks. This was a popular method of stopping a cavalry charge, as a falling horse often destroyed the cohesion of the enemy's line. The results were devastating.[17][18] The Dauphin attacked Salisbury and pressed his advance in spite of heavy shot by the English archers and complications of running into the retreating vanguard of Clermont's force. Green suggests that the Dauphin had thousands of troops with him in this phase of the attack. He advanced to the English lines but ultimately fell back. The French were unable to penetrate the protective hedge the English were using. This phase of the attack lasted about two hours.[19]
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Jan 19, 2015 16:44
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Disinterested posted:It's the loving horses that are the issue: That and the mud and the poor command and control of the French military at the time.
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Jan 19, 2015 16:52
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It's a bit more complicated than that. Nobody conducted conclusive studies on the arrow vs. various kinds of armor yet that weren't flawed on a fundamental level or lacking. "A report of the findings of the Defence Academy warbow trials Part 1 Summer 2005" is the best imo yet, it's available as pdf. As a rule, archers need some kind of battlefield fortification, hindering terrain or being mounted to be effective.
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Jan 19, 2015 17:25
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Grand Fromage posted:I can't find anything online that will actually load, but Baha ad-Din is one of the Muslim writers who described the shock of knights with arrows sticking out of them all over, completely unfazed. Pre-contact Japanese armor was basically like, llameler armor right?
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Jan 19, 2015 17:57
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Berke Negri posted:Pre-contact Japanese armor was basically like, llameler armor right? They had both lamellar and laminar armor. The former is individual scales that are attached to each other, while the latter is bands of armored plates. Amusingly scale armor and plate armor are entirely different from either. I do not know why English has made this terminology so confusing.
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Jan 19, 2015 18:15
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Chainmail and scale is always worn with padding underneath. This is the layer that stops bodkins and other piercing weapons. Cloth armor is quite effective at that. I have a journal article lying around here somewhere, where some japanese dude recommends not to shoot armored enemies beyond 30m, because it's ineffective. This is actually consistent with most tests that I've seen and also true for highly evolved composite bows like 16th century turkish ones.
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Jan 19, 2015 18:17
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sullat posted:Tell that to the longbowmen. Basically horses combined with a time transition between mail and plate armour. Of course the fact that no one today is willing to do the training to test any of theories throws it all out the window.
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Jan 19, 2015 21:06
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sbaldrick posted:Basically horses combined with a time transition between mail and plate armour. Of course the fact that no one today is willing to do the training to test any of theories throws it all out the window. There are many people shooting +100# warbows that could do the test. What you'd need is a substatial budget to finance sets of quality armor with authentic HRC, quilted jackets and proper arrowheads that were made with old methods and authentic HRC, crashtest dummies that measure the force of blunt trauma of the shot, lots of balistic gel, lots of different shots that are taken with different angles and distances towards the armor. That means lots of arrows too. Maybe a highspeed camera too. Whatever comes out might then apply to longbows and proper arrows. You'd need to redo the whole test for a set of composite bows shot with a thumbring and the different types of arrows and heads that were used. Unless you have a bunch of friends who make that stuff themselves, it's going to be really expensive.
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Jan 19, 2015 22:12
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JaucheCharly posted:There are many people shooting +100# warbows that could do the test. What you'd need is a substatial budget to finance sets of quality armor with authentic HRC, quilted jackets and proper arrowheads that were made with old methods and authentic HRC, crashtest dummies that measure the force of blunt trauma of the shot, lots of balistic gel, lots of different shots that are taken with different angles and distances towards the armor. That means lots of arrows too. Maybe a highspeed camera too. Whatever comes out might then apply to longbows and proper arrows. You'd need to redo the whole test for a set of composite bows shot with a thumbring and the different types of arrows and heads that were used. Sounds like something Mythbusters might try
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Jan 19, 2015 22:21
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sullat posted:Tell that to the longbowmen. Get enough guys together and they'll eventually penetrate the target, such as your mom. But the longbow itself is a demonstration of how good armor was. If you think about it, longbows are absurd weapons. A bow that requires years and years of training and deforms its user is insane. But you needed it to give yourself the best chance of penetrating armor at the longest range possible. The training is the part of all this that's hard to test. If you're going to seriously recreate a knight, you need to start training a kid at the age of like, six. And keep training him ten hours a day seven days a week for the next twenty years.
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Jan 20, 2015 01:15
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Grand Fromage posted:But the longbow itself is a demonstration of how good armor was. If you think about it, longbows are absurd weapons. A bow that requires years and years of training and deforms its user is insane. But you needed it to give yourself the best chance of penetrating armor at the longest range possible. We shape our tools and then our tools shape us. makes u think
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Jan 20, 2015 01:43
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Tunicate posted:Sounds like something Mythbusters might try They did, and found that, to the best of their abilities, longbows can't penetrate plate mail. I hate how Hollywood has turned armor into costumes. People wore armor because it worked.
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Jan 20, 2015 01:44
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Ynglaur posted:They did, and found that, to the best of their abilities, longbows can't penetrate plate mail. Don't you love how in most movies, a sword slash to the breast plate will kill a guy with one blow? Or how heavily armored people are just as easy to kill as a guy wearing nothing but tunic? Mike Loades (my personal favorite weapon expert) would have a lot to say about that I am sure. The reality of it is that, armor of any time period was usually well designed to deflect/protect its wearer against the weapons of its time period. In one of the documentaries I watched years ago, one of Mike Loades assistant is wearing leg plate. Mike takes one hell of a swing at the leg with an axe only to have the axe rebound against the armor. I was horrified that someone would be willing to risk his leg like that. The way to kill a heavily armored foe was to use whatever weakness they had and it was not an easy thing to do. There is a reason why Knights would come back alive from a battle, and the normal peasant soldier did not. Armor. gently caress Hollywood and their unrealistic depiction of literally anything they touch. If only they would get it through their head that reality can often be better than fiction. Also: Samurai vs Knight is stupid. You would need to test this for so many different era's because armor evolved all the time.
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Jan 20, 2015 01:57
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Besides, Vikings are so much more interesting as a samurai opponent.
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Jan 20, 2015 01:59
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Tunicate posted:Besides, Vikings are so much more interesting as a samurai opponent. gently caress this... I want to see a a red shirt vs a Stormtrooper. Stormtrooper would likely miss, and the red shirt would die anyways.
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Jan 20, 2015 02:09
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Dalael posted:Don't you love how in most movies, a sword slash to the breast plate will kill a guy with one blow? Or how heavily armored people are just as easy to kill as a guy wearing nothing but tunic? That's why I think this Game of Thrones fight might be the most realistic fight ever shown on screen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRYM6B7CTs8 Not only does he use his armour to absorb a blow from a cutting weapon, but also falls down and manages to get up without issue. But that just makes it that much worse when most every other fight in GoT is absurdly stupid.
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Jan 20, 2015 02:10
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Dalael posted:gently caress this... I want to see a a red shirt vs a Stormtrooper. Stormtrooper would likely miss, and the red shirt would die anyways. If the scene were drawn in anime, everything would explode, killing both of them. 
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Jan 20, 2015 02:48
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PittTheElder posted:But that just makes it that much worse when most every other fight in GoT is absurdly stupid. I won't hear a bad word about Brienne/Hound 
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Jan 20, 2015 03:28
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Jerusalem posted:I won't hear a bad word about Brienne/Hound You mean the characters GRRM was writing about during the well-written books?
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Jan 20, 2015 03:31
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Tao Jones posted:tldr seems to be "Assume the forces of Mordor adopt the disposition and tactics of the various barbarians the Romans defeated. The Romans defeated those barbarians, so they will defeat Mordor." It's pretty clear what Sauron would actually do, and it involves infiltrating Rome, tricking them into launching their entire army on a navy around the Atlantic because the Gods live on the other side, forcing the Gods to change the geography of Earth so the Roman fleet falls into the waves, and then sinking the entire city of Rome into the Mediterranean as a final act. The armies of Mordor would never need to lift a finger. Generations later people will be asking if Rome was in Bolivia and thinking that it was just a myth. Amgard posted:In his defense, his general just made a record 100,000 yard dash and how else are you gonna celebrate other than by spiking the ball? I'm to chapter 84 of Romance of the Three Kingdoms and I'm still kind of skeptical of the idea that the novel is trying that hard to make Liu Bei look good. I mean, sure, since his coronation the book has started calling him by his regnal name while Cao Pi is still Cao Pi, so the book accepts him as a rightful emperor, but Liu Bei is still a colossal jackass and is marching his entire army into oblivion against Sun Quan to avenge his brothers despite all of his advisers telling him that Cao Pi is a far more important threat. This after the book lovingly detailed point after point on the Liu Bei treason column, half-justifying all of them at best. It's interesting to read Arglebargle's posts and see which ways the novel deviates from real events.In the chapters I've recently read, I highly doubt that the real Lu Meng was possessed by the ghost of Guan Yu and "bled to death out of all seven orifices." I did love the story of Cao Cao's final illness, in which he had a brain tumor and a surgeon came by and offered to crack Cao Cao's head open and remove it. The surgeon was promptly arrested for attempted assassination because who could survive having his head cracked open and a surgeon digging through his brain?
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Jan 20, 2015 03:57
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Yeah Liu Bei's death pretty much saved Shu. His policies were really dumb.
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Jan 20, 2015 06:09
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Patter Song posted:It's pretty clear what would actually do, and it involves infiltrating Rome, tricking them into launching their entire army on a navy around the Atlantic because the Gods live on the other side, forcing the Gods to change the geography of Earth so the Roman fleet falls into the waves, and then sinking the entire city of Rome into the Mediterranean as a final act. The armies of Mordor would never need to lift a finger. Generations later people will be asking if Rome was in Bolivia and thinking that it was just a myth. Sauron tricking Athens to invade Sicily...now that's closer to the outcome. He then runs away to Persia and the whole empire falls to a wave of Greeks later.
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Jan 20, 2015 08:49
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Tunicate posted:Sounds like something Mythbusters might try Even better, Mike Loades did this test with the help of the British Royal Military College of Science. Nothing will ever truly be the same as a live-field exercise, but they seemed pretty confident about the outcome. They fired the equivalent of a longbow loosed at 20 meters that hit the armor dead-on; the knight didn't even receive a scratch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4aMoCAypos&t=1999s
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Jan 20, 2015 08:53
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Jerusalem posted:I won't hear a bad word about Brienne/Hound No, that one was also pretty good. It seems most of the time when there's just two people involved things are done pretty well (save the lack of helmets, done for obvious TV reasons, and it apparently makes GRRM furious), but especially some of the Night's Watch stuff in the last season was all sorts of dumb. In the episodes leading up to the big fight they're yelling at the watch rookies about fighting like trained fighters, in a group, and then things immediately devolve into a bunch of 1v1 duels in the courtyard for no reason. Kaal posted:Even better, Mike Loades did this test with the help of the British Royal Military College of Science. Nothing will ever truly be the same as a live-field exercise, but they seemed pretty confident about the outcome. They fired the equivalent of a longbow loosed at 20 meters that hit the armor dead-on; the knight didn't even receive a scratch. That seems about right. But I'll bet the blunt force that would still transfer would hurt like a son of a bitch.
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Jan 20, 2015 09:00
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Ynglaur posted:They did, and found that, to the best of their abilities, longbows can't penetrate plate mail. Other people have demonstrated the contrary. Nobody conducted scientifically sound tests yet that were executed either with a bow of authentic strenght and with the plates and arrowheads of authentic metallurgy and shape (e.g. tests that shoot earlier type 7 arrowheads that were meant against mail vs 16th century plate, instead of corresponding heads like the tudor bodkin or type 10). The source that I gave you is the best up to date, and it still suffers from flaws. What we do know is, that neither did armor become obsolete nor weapons like longbows or composite bows that took years of training. There was an ongoing arms race. Crossbows didn't supplant them either. Only firearms managed to do away with both full suits of armor and bows/crossbows.
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Jan 20, 2015 09:26
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