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It's no coincidence that almost all of the chaff units in all codices, including the older ones, are the dedicated assault units. If the inherent bias towards shooty units was fixed, a lot of the current problems would disappear. Trying to patch up poor base rules with special rules isn't good design either.
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Jan 22, 2015 07:09
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Hollismason posted:Eh, Wracks are pretty good with the Dark Eldar Coven Codex and it's Formations which is what really you should be using them with. My problem is you can't say the same for the Ork army, you can say that now with the Tyranids, getting Skyblight, the new models, new formations etc.. I can't think of a single one of the formations where the Wracks are anything but an unfortunate tax you have to pay to get something else. Orks, SW, BA, and DE are all pretty much completely without a viable build on the tournament scene. I would say that in a more casual sense, Orks are actually a lot better than DE- they at least have several neat gimmick formations, several good units in most slots, and some good answers to a lot of things.
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Jan 22, 2015 07:15
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Hollis, do you even play against Orks? You seem to have some inexplicable blind spot where you assume they're godawful. I mean I'm not surprised with your generally terrible opinions, but the codex isn't garbage. Green tide - good. Ork artillery - loving cheap as poo poo, best anti flyer shooting in the game, can give it relentless Trukkboyz - moving coffins, but get in your goddamn face. Ork Boyz - give them FNP and with their rerolls and WAAAGH they can loving motor. A couple of 30 man Boyz squads with FNP, a bunch of str 5 templates from artillery combined with anti flyer, a nasty biker boss rerolling everything with the Lucky Stixx with battle wagons to flavour is not a bad army.
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Jan 22, 2015 08:03
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Speaking of things AbusePuppy thinks are bad, I just finished up my 3rd darkfire castellax. gently caress putting these models together. They look rad and I love them on the table, but god drat are they painful to assemble. I had to pin every single limb and the arms make no sense at all. I have no idea what FW was thinking with the arm design.
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Jan 22, 2015 09:15
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Eh, I wouldn't call it bad- Blind is a nice rule and it's okay at hunting tanks, I'd just rather have the extra shot and Pinning from the Mauler Cannon a lot of the time. AdMech armies don't lack for S7 shots that can penetrate heavy armor, and Thrallax are better at that job. I don't think it's the most efficient way to outfit the unit, but I certainly wouldn't call it bad.
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Jan 22, 2015 09:57
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AbusePuppy posted:Orks, SW, BA, and DE are all pretty much completely without a viable build on the tournament scene. I would say that in a more casual sense, Orks are actually a lot better than DE- they at least have several neat gimmick formations, several good units in most slots, and some good answers to a lot of things. Have you even played the DE new codex? It is famous for not only its Web wayportal gimmicks but there is a specific formation which lets you bring 6 fast attack. Sure its not Eldar or Tau, but as I just explained yesterday, I easily beat a Centurion star list using a standard DE list. As a DE player I will go on record to say that the new DE is not as bad as everyone (as per usual may I add )freaked out about and there is a lot of synergy to the overall codex. True some units are now dirt but nothing new or worry some there. Foul Ole Ron fucked around with this message at 11:07 on Jan 22, 2015 |
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Jan 22, 2015 11:01
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Foul Ole Ron posted:As a DE player I will go on record to say that the new DE is not as bad as everyone (as per usual may I add )freaked out about and there is a lot of synergy to the overall codex. True some units are now dirt but nothing new or worry some there. DE were my first army going on 3 years ago, it was definitely a steep learning curve playing them and I'm very happy with the new codex. I've only done maybe a dozen or so games at most with the new book and there's lots of stuff I haven't tried yet, I and I still have the Covens book to explore. I think it's a combination of actually understanding how to play them and the new gimmicks like the 6 FA formation, WWP and other things. There's enough there that's new to fix and simplify some things (Power from Pain, etc.) but enough has stayed the same that it's not completely foreign. I suppose it's my first experience with a codex update but I don't feel anything was nerfed or buffed too much. It'd be nice if there were a Lord of War but I don't think that's the DE way, really. And losing Vect and the Baron kind of suck but I only used the Baron once so, ehh. But I'm not like most players I guess, I change my list a lot between games so it's not like I'd settled on one killer setup and feel it got kicked to the curb.
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Jan 22, 2015 11:46
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Lord Twisted posted:Hollis, do you even play against Orks? You seem to have some inexplicable blind spot where you assume they're godawful. I mean I'm not surprised with your generally terrible opinions, but the codex isn't garbage. The army doesn't have any real staying power, you can just kind of sit there in a AV14 and look at them all day. It's main issue is that it just is terribad at Mission Objectives, their OBSEC units die the more you put shots into the unit because of mob rule and while their artillery is dirt cheap, it's still got poo poo leadership. I've played against the new codex a few times and was just thoroughly underwhelmed. I think they've got some good formations but overall with the loss of so many special characters, probably one of the worst rule in the game and no really good Obsec troops what's the point. It's not that it's a bad codex it's that with the strong anti-assault stance the army has taken along with the Psychic Phase the army kind of got left behind.
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Jan 22, 2015 15:09
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I've actually done pretty well with my Ork, just straight drowning people in bodies.
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Jan 22, 2015 15:22
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hey remember when daemon factory was really good? or when the new -star was gonna be IoE terminators with a Slaaneshi Sorceror? Orks are better than fine.
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Jan 22, 2015 15:42
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Ehh. Orks can get stuff done, but they really butchered the things that used to be good in the last codex. Folks who were running multiple deff rollas or big kan walls were thoroughly, thoroughly boned. We lost a lot of personality [the old ramshackle rule, especially], and there are still major trap units. [Kommandos, looted wagons, stormboyz/zagstruk]. Orks still have rules like 'dont touch that', which are 100% downside. Our morale issues got much much worse, with the bosspole going from a LD reroll to letting you reroll the table that decides how many of your own units you kill when something is scary. I hate that table so much. You can put together a decent army with it, but compared to the other 7th edition codexes it's pretty disappointing. And our formation selection is abysmal. I cannot stress that enough. Ignite Memories fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Jan 22, 2015 |
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Jan 22, 2015 16:20
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Foul Ole Ron posted:Have you even played the DE new codex? It is famous for not only its Web wayportal gimmicks but there is a specific formation which lets you bring 6 fast attack. I haven't played with the new book, no, but I've played against it more than a few times. The WWP gimmick is cute, but it's pretty much entirely reliant on allying in Eldar for something useful to Deep Strike- on their own, DE's options are actually pretty mediocre. It's also vulnerable to all of the usual Deep Strike defenses (most notably Interceptor), which is especially damning given the fragility of the models usually doing it. The Realspace Raiders detachment getting six FA slots is nice, but that's essentially all you get out of it- the actual Command Benefits of the detachment are utter garbage. And none of the FA units are powerful enough that just spamming them is enough to make a really strong army- Reavers, Scourges, and Razorwings are all good units, to be sure, but not great ones. The real problem with the codex is that it didn't solve any of the old book's actual problems. DE are still in serious trouble when going second against many armies, still struggle with effective anti-tank against midrange targets (AV11/12), still have very shoddy troop options, still lack much variety in their weapon profiles, and still have all of their assault units configured in extremely awkward ways. They lean heavily on the Eldar book to solve all their problems for them, and at the end of the day that's really just Eldar being strong, not DE being strong. Ignite Memories posted:And our formation selection is abysmal. I cannot stress that enough. Uh... Orks have Green Tide, Bully Boys, and the Battlewagon one whose name escapes me at the moment. They have some very good formations.
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Jan 22, 2015 16:58
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Green tide is not a good formation. Bully boys and battlewagons are both pretty good, yes, but the requirements are stiffer than the most british of upper lips. Other armies' formations have much more reasonable/flexible requirements, and they have more selection in general. 2 usable formations that each cost over 300 dollars and so many points that they define your entire army - That is not a good selection, especially compared to the smorgasbord other armies have been offered. Ignite Memories fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Jan 22, 2015 |
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Jan 22, 2015 17:20
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You're wrong about Green Tide, but also both Blitz Brigade and Bulky Boys cost exactly 600 points. It's not cheap but unless you're playing like 1250 point games it's not 'defining your army' either.
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Jan 22, 2015 17:34
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Cataphract posted:this is loving baffling lmao
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Jan 22, 2015 17:38
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AbusePuppy posted:I haven't played with the new book, no, but I've played against it more than a few times. The WWP gimmick is cute, but it's pretty much entirely reliant on allying in Eldar for something useful to Deep Strike- on their own, DE's options are actually pretty mediocre. It's also vulnerable to all of the usual Deep Strike defenses (most notably Interceptor), which is especially damning given the fragility of the models usually doing it. I disagree with a lot of what your saying but not much I can do about that. I would advise you play the new book though, its not as bad as your making it out to be and it plays much better than you would think.
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Jan 22, 2015 17:42
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Does anyone have an extra metal Deathwatch Kill Team shoulder pad they'd be willing to part with? E: I'm in the northeastern US.
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Jan 22, 2015 17:42
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REAL MUSCLE MILK posted:You're wrong about Green Tide, but also both Blitz Brigade and Bulky Boys cost exactly 600 points. It's not cheap but unless you're playing like 1250 point games it's not 'defining your army' either. That is, unless you want to mechanize your slow and purposeful 2+ infantry without invulnerable saves, or put something in your 5 battlewagons. And a single unit of 100 ork boyz without objective secured is crap any way you cut it. Sorry, dude. It's fluffy, it's full of orky character, but it's a bad choice. Especially when you consider the fun factor of actually playing the army and moving them around and stuff. Edit: but this is opinion vs opinion. Even if we throw out that argument completely and ignore the way they perform on the table, the fact remains that other armies get formations with requirements that a sane person may have already met by simply collecting his army. One unit of this, one unit of that, a special character. The ork formations all require you to have a poo poo-ton of one thing, often more than was previously legal to field. They're inflexible. They're formations for people just starting out, like Esser-Z. If you're a guy with an existing ork force, there is nothing reasonable for you. Hell, just look at that necron chart. Surely even the people who disagree with my other points can understand what I'm saying here. Ignite Memories fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Jan 22, 2015 |
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Jan 22, 2015 17:44
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Ignite Memories posted:That is, unless you want to mechanize your slow and purposeful 2+ infantry without invulnerable saves, or put something in your 5 battlewagons. So you want to mechanize them? Do it, who cares? It's another 330 points for three battlewagons, now you have 15 WS5 2+ units charging out of Battlewagons. It's not worth going into 'you have to put stuff in the Blitz Brigade' because there's presumably infantry in your list without the formation and it's not like battlewagons need passengers to work. 100 Ork boyz doesn't need obsec. The unit is so large there's like a 3 inch band in front of it where a unit could conceivably be and still be in objective range, and it's not like there are very many Troop units in the game that are going to be happy with 100 Ork mob in guaranteed charge range.
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Jan 22, 2015 18:04
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*gets his objectives denied by empty rhinos* V you mention FNP and a cover save. So now both of your HQ slots are spoken for, [150 pts-ish] in addition to 600 points of infantry, and a 100-point warboss. Including the book which contains the green tide rules, you have now spent $400 at MSRP. At what point does a formation define your army, if not there? Ignite Memories fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Jan 22, 2015 |
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Jan 22, 2015 18:09
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Ignite Memories posted:Green tide is not a good formation. *shrug* Meganobz are a really good unit. Scouting five AV14 vehicles forward is a pretty good strategy. Most of the useful formations are 600+ points (Adamantine Lance, Fireblade Cadre, Corpseclaw Thief, etc) so that's really nothing special for Orks. Maybe you don't like the way formations interact with the game or think they're not good for it overall, but that's a totally different contention than "these formations are bad in rules sense." As for the "smorgasboard" the other armies have been offered: DE have three decent formations (Talos horde, Talos/Chronos/Haemo), SW have maybe one (Void Claws), BA have perhaps two or three (it still remains to be seen), GK have zero, no other army has more than one. And Green Tide is perfectly fine, if rather gimmicky- a lot of armies will actually struggle to deal with that many bodies moving forward that fast. With FNP, a cover save, and the ability to move 6" + d6" + charge (and reroll the dice) every turn, it is hardly a pushover and will consistently start launching assaults on the second turn. Foul Ole Ron posted:I disagree with a lot of what your saying but not much I can do about that. I would advise you play the new book though, its not as bad as your making it out to be and it plays much better than you would think. Well, I'm not gonna buy a whole new army just to prove myself right, so no real chance of that. But I've seen it on the tabletop and watched more than a few battle reports and it really seems to be just the same old same old as before- paper-thin units that die to a stiff breeze, spamming poison shots, and Lances not being good enough at killing enemy armor to really hold things together. It's not the worst of the new codices thanks to the benefits from formations and allying, but I remain wholly unimpressed with it from both a competitive and thematic standpoint.
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Jan 22, 2015 18:09
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Ignite Memories posted:*gets his objectives denied by empty rhinos* Parking an empty rhino in front of 100 Orks is going to have one result but it's not the one you're implying. The 'two HQ slots are spoken for' argument is a bit bunk because those are the two HQ units you're going to take a lot anyway.
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Jan 22, 2015 18:17
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orks are S3 on the charge if the charge is disorderly. So you're either using the entire unit to attack a single transport, or 95% of your models cannot harm it. Don't give me that poo poo about a footslogging KFF mek being 'the HQ you were going to take anyway', either. KFF's got nerfed deep into the dirt, and this is the only remaining list where anyone would ever want to use one. Painboys are good but hardly the must-take you're implying. Now maybe hollismason constantly fellating the upcoming formations has colored my perception of them somewhat, but it's hard to look at that necron formation list and not feel insulted. But what does my opinion matter, I'm just an ork player. Ignite Memories fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Jan 22, 2015 |
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Jan 22, 2015 18:21
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AbusePuppy posted:Well, I'm not gonna buy a whole new army just to prove myself right, so no real chance of that. But I've seen it on the tabletop and watched more than a few battle reports and it really seems to be just the same old same old as before- paper-thin units that die to a stiff breeze, spamming poison shots, and Lances not being good enough at killing enemy armor to really hold things together. It's not the worst of the new codices thanks to the benefits from formations and allying, but I remain wholly unimpressed with it from both a competitive and thematic standpoint. Chiming in to agree with this. We have two DE players and one has played probably 30 games with only DE since the book dropped against anyone and everything. I've seen him tabled on turn one more then once and have seen him try to claw out victories here and there. DE does do better then last edition but it's still pretty lovely. spamming scourges with Haywire, the firedragon archon bus, and cheap monsters with FNP are cool, as is the stacking army wide power from pain to pull off desperate fearless last stands and rallies on turn 5, but it isn't a book that is going to stand up on the tourney scene.
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Jan 22, 2015 18:22
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Cataphract posted:this is loving baffling This still isn't quite right, but I've wasted all the time I care to on it. 
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Jan 22, 2015 18:45
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Indolent Bastard posted:This still isn't quite right, but I've wasted all the time I care to on it. So now we've gone beyond tables and into flow charts. Honest question, are the rules writers at GW actually Civil Engineers?
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Jan 22, 2015 18:50
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Ignite Memories posted:orks are S3 on the charge if the charge is disorderly. So you're either using the entire unit to attack a single transport, or 95% of your models cannot harm it. Power klaws aren't s3 on any charge I've encountered, and you continue to be hilariously overdramatic about the changes to KFF. Even if you don't take the better Ghazghull one, you still have 100-strong mob hiding ten power klaws, the Orks have FNP, and a healthy bubble of them have a cover save. Take the Ghazghull KFF and that cover save becomes a 4+ invuln, but oh no it's only a six inch bubble (surprise that's pretty big) that ignores half the poo poo shot at it. Keep acting like it murdered your loved ones, though.
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Jan 22, 2015 18:53
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NTRabbit posted:So now we've gone beyond tables and into flow charts. No because then they'd likely work better.
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Jan 22, 2015 19:00
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The ork codex is fine. It plays the game of warhammer forty thousand. Some people are happy with its associated formations. It is also somewhat lackluster compared to its contemporary codexes, and removed some of the more interesting things from its own predecessor. The ork objective cards definitely do help convey the ork personality [the game-winning objective point of my last game was awarded to me for Going Fast], but overall going from a mostly-fearless army to a pretty-darn-fearful army is a frustrating shift. There, that's my take. If you don't agree then that is okay or i'm wrong, whichever you prefer. [not even hollismason can get excited about this army] Ignite Memories fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Jan 22, 2015 |
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Jan 22, 2015 19:19
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I enjoy playing Orks and find it to be a more than satisfactory experience
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Jan 22, 2015 19:40
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AbusePuppy is right that DE could really use something to hose AV12 with. Some sort of multishot S6 weapon would be a huge boon to the army--maybe tweaked disintegrators would do the trick. But I generally disagree with the rest of his assessment. I think the book is very well balanced with clear strengths and weaknesses that lead to a distinct play-style that is fluffy and thematic.
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Jan 22, 2015 20:19
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PeterWeller posted:AbusePuppy is right that DE could really use something to hose AV12 with. Some sort of multishot S6 weapon would be a huge boon to the army--maybe tweaked disintegrators would do the trick. This is definitely true of the three or so units in the book that anyone takes. Otherwise it has a very common GW problem, in that more than half the book is worthless cruft by accident or design.
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Jan 22, 2015 20:25
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REAL MUSCLE MILK posted:Power klaws aren't s3 on any charge I've encountered, and you continue to be hilariously overdramatic about the changes to KFF. Even if you don't take the better Ghazghull one, you still have 100-strong mob hiding ten power klaws, the Orks have FNP, and a healthy bubble of them have a cover save. Take the Ghazghull KFF and that cover save becomes a 4+ invuln, but oh no it's only a six inch bubble (surprise that's pretty big) that ignores half the poo poo shot at it. Keep acting like it murdered your loved ones, though. 100 man squad would be 600 + 250 for 10 pks, + 100 for Nobz. To me Orks are screwed by challenges. Nobz are less effective with Power Klaws as they can be challenged out. Many of the threats that you would require a PK to murder now laugh as they punch your 2w, 6+ save t4 Nob dead. Boyz are a less effective delivery service. Sluggas have lost a lot of purpose and I would only ever take a Nob with a PK if there was a mek in there to eat the first challenge. My Nobz go naked to eat any challenge that would threaten the warboss. All in all I don't feel like taking boyz any longer. A couple of grot units to screen the kannon is fine. You can now take some Meganobz and chuck a painboy with them for a horrible unit. Kannons are ace, buggies and dethkoptas are stupidly cheap. I have used a unit of bikers with a painboy and warboss and it is fun; expensive but good.
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Jan 22, 2015 20:27
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Thank you for reminding me that I wanted to convert my meks down to slugga/choppa, actually. The way I look at it, it's basically a 5-point upgrade over a hardboy to buy the squad challenge insurance. I had built them with kustom mega-blastas before, but I think I really just want them to be cheap sponges.
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Jan 22, 2015 21:28
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I've rathered enjoyed my main Ork list in Vassal play. I'm still putting it together physically because I use Bullyboyz and those Manz are expensive to build up. Main striking power is the bully boyz in wagons, screened by buggies. Megaboss with Lucky Stikk in one of the meganob units, and a couple big blobs of boyz for troops. Has worked pretty well for me, though I've not tried tournament calibre play or anything (because I feel 40k is a lovely game for tournament purposes).
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Jan 22, 2015 21:34
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Cataphract posted:this is loving baffling What exactly am I looking at? Is that the Necron's version of FOC from now on or something?
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Jan 22, 2015 22:13
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I appreciate that you have to be an engineer to understand how the robit book works. poo poo, it's not even the worst laid out chart I've seen in the last hour.
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Jan 22, 2015 22:37
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My two cents on the tide are that it's expensive but hella fun and you haven't experienced true fear until you unload a 50 man blob with presience and fsrsrf and roll well at point blank, and kill like 4 guys due to double saves.
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Jan 22, 2015 22:41
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ThNextGreenLantern posted:What exactly am I looking at? Is that the Necron's version of FOC from now on or something? No, it's just an alternate way of building Necron armies. You can still use the regular FOC.
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Jan 22, 2015 23:21
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Speaking of Orks, how is the grot tank/mekboy list from forgeworld? I forget what book it's in, but it looked really fun to play.Mango Polo posted:No, it's just an alternate way of building Necron armies. You can still use the regular FOC. Couldn't you just 'go unbound' and take all those formations anyway and get all the benefits?
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Jan 22, 2015 23:32
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