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Oh my god you are either a liar or the densest motherfucker alive. 
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Jan 23, 2015 10:47
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iq was discredited as a metric of intelligence years ago u spastic.
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Jan 23, 2015 10:51
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SedanChair posted:Hoppe: A just system inherently discriminates against non-whites. QED I want to note when we are going through this latest exercise is that I am not necessarily agreeing with each statement that Hoppe is making. That should be clear. Some of his ideas I agree with and others I disagree with. I am only concerned here with whether there is sufficient evidence to conclude that Hoppe is surely a racist. This statement too does not prove that. Especially as it does not even represent his ideal system but rather an intermediate approach to immigration while we still have a State. Free and unrestricted immigration, to Hoppe, in a State controlled society would lead to property rights violations due to new immigrants using resources and overcrowding communities and stressing social services. Hoppe is assuming that such a system would tend to favor pro-European immigration bias because he favors that immigrants be sponsored by a citizen who assumes liability for property damage caused by the immigrant. The mere fact that he requires personal sponsorship of the immigrant means that it is likely that those sponsored will speak English and have a compatible system of values. These two categories alone might well favor European immigration. But this is not Hoppe arguing that Europeans are superior to Hispanics, but rather that this interim compromise immigration policy that is designed to protect the rights of property owners until a full private law society can be established would likely be biased in favor of European immigration for a variety of reasons. But of course if any natural citizen wanted to sponsor a Hispanic immigrant, that is perfectly within his right. I don't necessarily agree with Hoppe on this, but this isn't a reflection of racist or supremacist attitudes.
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Jan 23, 2015 10:58
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Guys he's just saying that his preferred mode of governance includes extremely racist practices. What's the big deal?
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Jan 23, 2015 11:02
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jrodefeld posted:I want to note when we are going through this latest exercise is that I am not necessarily agreeing with each statement that Hoppe is making. That should be clear. Some of his ideas I agree with and others I disagree with. I am only concerned here with whether there is sufficient evidence to conclude that Hoppe is surely a racist. paragon1 posted:Oh my god you are either a liar or the densest motherfucker alive.
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Jan 23, 2015 11:07
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Political Whores posted:An experiment. When Hoppe says something like this: We've already clearly established that Hoppe believes in discrimination. Let me ask you this. Do you think it is rational and appropriate that home owners should discriminate against convicted sex offenders? If you do, then you are a racist. Actually you aren't but, correct me if I'm wrong but Hoppe's argument here is that it is rational and appropriate for private property owners to discriminate against people who would statistically and empirically, increase the crime rate of their neighborhood and lower the home value of their property. Hoppe mentioned a long list of indicators that could be used for reasonable standards of discrimination, "the composition of the inhabitants’ sexes, age groups, races, nationalities, ethnicities, religions, languages, professions, and incomes". Private homeowners and communities have every rational desire to keep a low crime rate and high home values. Hoppe doesn't say they SHOULD discriminate against immigrants only that they could discriminate against immigrants (in addition to all the other metrics and statistics listed above) depending on the statistics of crime and violence among a specific population. If property owners are going to discriminate against potential neighbors, isn't it better that they discriminate based on factors like crime rate and property values rather than irrational racial prejudices? Sorry but, while I don't necessarily agree, this statement is by itself certainly NOT racist.
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Jan 23, 2015 11:13
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Black people = sex offenders. Nice one Jrod.
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Jan 23, 2015 11:15
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AstheWorldWorlds posted:"Blacks and whites are different. When blacks are left entirely to their own devices, Western civilization — any kind of civilization — disappears." You copied and pasted that from the Soutern Poverty Law Center website, right? I have no use for Jared Taylor personally. I don't subscribe to any of his views. But I wouldn't hesitate to engage in debate with him. I wouldn't censor him, I'd counter his views with a rigorous debate and discussion. Remember, we are not talking about whether there is "reason to suspect" that Hoppe is a certified racist, we are talking about whether he IS a racist. And that is the assertion that has not been proven.
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Jan 23, 2015 11:17
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Saying that race is a reasonable standard for discrimination is inherently racist you giant clod. IT'S THE CORE OF THE WHOLE loving THING.
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Jan 23, 2015 11:17
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There are people who have coherent political positions which, if applied as policy, would result inadvertently in racist results. These people are not racists in my view unless they are wilfully blind or totally indifferent towards that outcome. There are other people who are using their political positions as a cover for their racism and claiming to just be applying morally neutral logic in the manner of the first group. Hoppe is demonstrably the latter, and that has been demonstrated quite clearly already ITT. People who are in a rush to defend the confederacy are usually suspect.
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Jan 23, 2015 11:18
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What was that about jrod not being a racist? Because he's being pretty loving racist right now.
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Jan 23, 2015 11:19
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P.S. Private security services that provide for the basic security needs of individuals are literally feudal lords and/or protection racketeers.
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Jan 23, 2015 11:19
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Black people are only "statistically likely to increase the crime rate" due to racist as all hell housing policies and because the racist as hell police investigate them a billion times more than white people
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Jan 23, 2015 11:20
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Jrod, I object to your use of statist language. Many freedom loving people have been erroneously defined as sex offenders by the state because the state uses its monopoly of force to confiscate my natural right to marry children, pimp them out, film it all, and sell it on the flourishing child porn market.
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Jan 23, 2015 11:23
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Answer the loving in-elasticity in medical care post JRod. I will have my pound of flesh!
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Jan 23, 2015 11:26
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In addition, how are you going to know someone's a sex offender in the first place? It's not like they need to announce themselves in libertopia. Are you just expecting people to walk right up with a bloody diaper contract in hand indicating their proclivity for the young? Is 'Rapist' going to be the hot new honorary title or something?
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Jan 23, 2015 11:28
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Muscle Tracer posted:You do not understand "inelasticity." Let me give you a two-part example: Answer it you loving quarter of man. You sniveling cretin. You craven simpering whore for the intellectually and morally bankrupt. You loving coward.
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Jan 23, 2015 11:28
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Pro-tip jrodefeld: you'd get less dogpiled if you responded to the substantive replies to your posts instead of biting around the edges.
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Jan 23, 2015 11:32
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paragon1 posted:Black people are only "statistically likely to increase the crime rate" due to racist as all hell housing policies and because the racist as hell police investigate them a billion times more than white people No, you see housing discrimination and scrutiny based on race are irrational, and humans are rational beings. Therefore the problem lies with the inherent inferiority and un-civilizedness of the friend of the family and not with the white police force and landlords. They're just being realists about race and are unfettered by the anti-scientific political correctness and statism that has forced otherwise rational actors into believing the untrue claims that the negro is not inherently predisposed to violence and crime.
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Jan 23, 2015 11:34
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President Kucinich posted:In addition, how are you going to know someone's a sex offender in the first place? It's not like they need to announce themselves in libertopia. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKE9W0O8bX8
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Jan 23, 2015 11:38
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^^^ Hnnnngg I don't think I'm going to click that for fear of what it has to do with my post. Don't want to end up on some watch list. Malleum posted:No, you see housing discrimination and scrutiny based on race are irrational, and humans are rational beings. Therefore the problem lies with the inherent inferiority and un-civilizedness of the friend of the family and not with the white police force and landlords. They're just being realists about race and are unfettered by the anti-scientific political correctness and statism that has forced otherwise rational actors into believing the untrue claims that the negro is not inherently predisposed to violence and crime. But in libertopia there would literally be no crime so there would be no reason to discriminate on skin color. Besides, you can't even know non white people commit certain crimes at higher rates. That knowledge requires acknowledging 'social statistics' is a thing that exists and doing that is anathema to to praxeology. President Kucinich fucked around with this message at 11:45 on Jan 23, 2015 |
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Jan 23, 2015 11:43
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paragon1 posted:Saying that race is a reasonable standard for discrimination is inherently racist you giant clod. IT'S THE CORE OF THE WHOLE loving THING. Especially the 2nd paragraph, which explicitly says that they would discriminate so only the "good" kind of immigrant gets in. Not only that they could do this, but that doing so is a refinement of discrimination. Gee I wonder how one would go about deciding that? Not by criminal record obviously, but by belonging to a class marked as undesirable. That is explicitly what he says. Even if I thought former criminals should be barred from living somewhere for insurance reasons, which I don't, that's not what Hoppe posited. He explicitly talked only of certain classes of people. Even the income one (which would in practice have racist outcomes) is still loving awful on its own.
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Jan 23, 2015 12:12
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Jrodefield, can you even consider that many people (black, Native American, Irish, German, Latino, Asian, etc.) in the US already have experienced or are still experiencing a society with the right to discriminate and we don't want it? If that is one of libertarianism's selling points, then it is a fundamentally broken and immoral political system. And racist too!
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Jan 23, 2015 14:29
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Mods: requesting namechange to "quarter of man," TIA.jrodefeld posted:You copied and pasted that from the Soutern Poverty Law Center website, right? I have no use for Jared Taylor personally. I don't subscribe to any of his views. But I wouldn't hesitate to engage in debate with him. I wouldn't censor him, I'd counter his views with a rigorous debate and discussion. Really? I would censor him. Since I am not the government, I would exercise my right to free association and censor him by NOT INVITING HIM TO MY CONFERENCE.
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Jan 23, 2015 15:19
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jrodefeld posted:Your not going to like what I am about to say, and I am sure you are a perfectly nice and well meaning person. But I think you have chosen an immoral career path. Can your skills and ability not help you to find a job in the private economy? Your salary is directly funded by taxpayers and there is no price mechanism to determine if what you do is actually needed or desired by consumers. I would feel very uncomfortable if my salary was paid by using force to expropriate people against their will. A person's salary should be determined through free negotiation between employer and employee and the wages should come from customer sales that are made voluntarily. So Jrod, how come Hoppe doesn't quit his imorally-funded public university job? Does making a living by draining the sweat of the taxpayer make him a hideous hypocrite? Should Hayek be reviled for immigrating to the US to take advantage of Medicare in his later years, a boon he never paid for? Likewise, is Glenn 'Instapundit" Reynolds, libertarian blogger and radio personality, a vile leech for keeping his job at the University of Tenesse? How come he is not walking the walk and letting the market decide what his labor is worth? Your whole philosophy is steeped in so much hypocrisy as to be rank. Heaps of tolerance and excuses for aparatheid, corruption, coercion, callousness and even slavery for the select few, pious finger-wagging and self-rightousness directed at the moochers. Also, regarding the whole racial segregation as a 'function of the state" jazz, that is a ridiculous belief that certainly lets you sleep better at night, but has no place in actual reality. Private citizens were (and are) the full muscle of racial animus; had a civil-rights proponent somehow lucked into a southern mayor or governor office in the south in the 1950s (Say, a segregation-friendly mayor died and his vice-mayor os a stealth liberal), he would have been cast out and vilified so far your head would spin, 'power of the state' be damned. In fact, here's my question: What would be wrong with Jim Crow and segregation, had those same measures been taken by a private covemant community?
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Jan 23, 2015 15:22
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How dare you give in to the state by maintaining its infrastructure? *drives on road to supermarket, buys popsicle with ingredients clearly printed on label* *licks popsicle, fails to ingest poison* *goes home, posts on internet*
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Jan 23, 2015 15:26
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Muscle Tracer posted:You do not understand "inelasticity." Let me give you a two-part example: Hello again, Jrode. Is it that time again? There's a lovely question here that a lot of us would very much like to know your answer to, so I'm asking you to, if you would, look it over. I realize it's a bit of a poser, but if you could see fit to address this question which has been posed to you for the last 60-odd pages, that would be just smashing. Ok? Wonderful!
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Jan 23, 2015 15:30
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TLM3101 posted:Hello again, Jrode. Is it that time again? There's a lovely question here that a lot of us would very much like to know your answer to, so I'm asking you to, if you would, look it over. I realize it's a bit of a poser, but if you could see fit to address this question which has been posed to you for the last 60-odd pages, that would be just smashing. Cape Suzette: Libertarian paradise
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Jan 23, 2015 15:31
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I don't mean to imply that TaleSpin wasn't a great cartoon, but I just realized how it must have basically created modern libertarians who want to be ruled by a tiger in a suit,
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Jan 23, 2015 15:36
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jrodefeld posted:I don't agree with Jared Taylor on much at all with regards to his views on race. Richard Lynn, whatever one thinks of The Bell Curve, cannot be rightly described as a white supremacist. I don't know much about the science of racial differences in average IQ levels or if they exist. But it should be noted that Lynn observed the highest average IQ in Asians NOT Europeans. We don't know that Lynn's research is motivated by racial or supremacist attitudes. Again, i'd like to see proof of this. I have no idea what the empirical data says with regards to racial differences in IQ averages. But if there is evidence to that effect, then it is the scientists job to report what data suggests. Any study in this field, by its very nature, is incredibly controversial and politically incorrect. But that doesn't necessarily imply that it is incorrect. I have no idea but I'd like proof that Lynn has racist or supremacist motivations. You know its worrying to me that you agree with a white supremicist even a little bit with regards to his view on race. It is really disturbing that you seem incapable of just saying "Yeah, that guy is a racist." even when talking about an an avowed "Race Realist" or white supremacist. This is why I think it is impossible for you to acknowledge Hoppe as a racist, I think it would literally break your brain since you can't even agree that people who say things like: "Blacks and whites are different. When blacks are left entirely to their own devices, Western civilization — any kind of civilization — disappears." are racist. Jesus. quote:I don't know what Hoppe agrees or disagrees on with these men. But my understanding is that the "Property and Freedom Society" was established out of a frustration at mainstream academia for censoring controversial positions and academic research. As such the organization will host speakers whose work is controversial. That doesn't imply agreement with the speakers. And it just so happens that a lot of those speakers are white supremecists or people who otherwise believe that blacks are inferior to whites and that we should keep them out of our country. Hmmmmmm. quote:I can't justify calling Hoppe a racist through this guilt by association tactic. Maybe he provided a platform for these men because he loathes academic censorship and political correctness and feels that people who have controversial ideas should still have a platform to express their views? quote:You copied and pasted that from the Soutern Poverty Law Center website, right? I have no use for Jared Taylor personally. I don't subscribe to any of his views. But I wouldn't hesitate to engage in debate with him. I wouldn't censor him, I'd counter his views with a rigorous debate and discussion. Jrodefeld, the evidence presented to you would be enough to convince any honest person that Hoppe is probably a racist. At this point I am fairly certain I could present you with a quote from Hans Hermann Hoppe where he says "I don't want non-white immigrants", like that exact phrase and you'd argue that he is being taken out of context or that it doesn't 'prove' anything. We already have examples of hoppe saying he believes that european immagrents are of 'higher quality' than those from elsewhere, but that apparently isn't enough: quote:“eliminated all formerly existing ‘quality’ concerns and the explicit preference for European immigrants and replaced it with a policy of almost complete non-discrimination (multi-culturalism).” If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, has a preference for immigration of europeans like a duck and invites a panel that includes some of the most prominent white supremacists in the world to its personal duck clubhouse, then it is probably a duck. And that is what just astonishes me. You aren't even willing to entertain the idea that Hoppe could be racist despite overwhelming evidence, and frankly that is more telling than anything else. I mean, you honestly expect us to believe that Hoppe gave a stage and a 40 minute long lecture to Jared Taylor because... what? He disagrees with him? Or does hoppe think that he is a racist gently caress but "Meh, we really ought to give him a platform just to be fair?" As far as I can tell you are either a racist or... paragon1 posted:Oh my god you are either a liar or the densest motherfucker alive.
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Jan 23, 2015 15:57
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Trigger Warning - Jared Taylor excuses slavery in this video. I'm posting it only because I think its worth people seeing how hosed up it is to be giving this piece of human garbage a platform to speak, and how no sensible person would think it is a good idea to give him a platform to spew this in the face of "fairness". Oh, and he excuses lynching. http://vimeo.com/85568469 Caros fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Jan 23, 2015 |
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Jan 23, 2015 16:05
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When I woke up and saw this thread gained three new pages overnight, I knew someone must have broached the Race Question. JRod, why is it that you stick around to defend your beloved icons against charges of racism, but systematically refuse to engage in debate on literally anything else? We call you out on the logical foundations of your beliefs? Nothing. We point out historical examples of your conclusions being the opposite of reality? Silence. We point out that your intellectual forebears were and are hypocritical agents of the dreaded State? Zip. We point out that "intelligence tests will naturally favor Europeans" is a pretty racist thing to think? All hell breaks loose. That said, I'm not going to get into the racism argument with you because it's really obvious you would excuse your heroes for burning a cross because it could have just been a religious ceremony gone horribly wrong. If you really do want to have a substantial debate on other topics, here's a short summary of debate topics I would love to get into with you. Most have been brought up in the thread previously.
Choose as many or as few of these as you want. I'll be more than happy to write a summary post for each one outlining them in detail. If you actually respond to this, I promise I'll even refrain from insulting you for the entirety of the summary posts! That's an offer I don't make lightly. If you don't respond though, I won't be surprised. As many of us have pointed out in the past, you constantly avoid any substantial arguments laid against you, and instead either respond to the people making cheap jokes or just vanish.
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Jan 23, 2015 16:33
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Caros posted:Trigger Warning - Jared Taylor excuses slavery in this video. I'm posting it only because I think its worth people seeing how hosed up it is to be giving this piece of human garbage a platform to speak, and how no sensible person would think it is a good idea to give him a platform to spew this in the face of "fairness". Oh, and he excuses lynching. You don't get it, Caros. Hoppe was just giving that guy a platform out of his overweening love for free speech and the open exchange of ideas. Which is why he also had stalinists, franciscan monks advocating universal vows of poverty, and Farrakhan-style african supremacists all sharing the same stage, right? ...right? Libertarianism: Where having a guest speaker for lynching is alright, but having a single-payer healthcare advocate is tolerating the unconscionable initiation of force!
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Jan 23, 2015 16:36
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Sephyr posted:You don't get it, Caros. Hoppe was just giving that guy a platform out of his overweening love for free speech and the open exchange of ideas. Which is why he also had stalinists, franciscan monks advocating universal vows of poverty, and Farrakhan-style african supremacists all sharing the same stage, right? To be fair he isn't advocating for lynching. He is merely saying that they probably deserved it in most instances. It of course, being brutally strung up without trial for a crime they may or may not have committed.
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Jan 23, 2015 16:47
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jrodefeld posted:Remember, we are not talking about whether there is "reason to suspect" that Hoppe is a certified racist, we are talking about whether he IS a racist. And that is the assertion that has not been proven. He's racist. No amount of arguing is going to change that, because he discriminates directly based on race.
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Jan 23, 2015 16:50
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jrodefeld posted:I don't think I have quoted Hoppe in quite a while yet you go on and on about him here. There is a reason why I don't do these sorts of public denouncements of people as racists, which you seem desperate that I do. The answer is two fold. In the first place, when it comes to someone like Hoppe or Rothbard who have written such an enormous amount of material, I can only read what I can and make my own judgments as to their character and motives. I have repeatedly been told that someone or other is a vile racist who said all sorts of horrible things and then when I read up on what they said, it turns out they were misquoted and their opinions distorted by their political enemies. So I don't play that game...I don't think you have offered any such proof. I am genuinely asking because racism is a term with a specific and literal meaning. To prove such you need to demonstrate Hoppe singling out a specific race for discrimination which I don't think he has ever done. Dude I already posted the article wherein Rothbard literally explicitly called for sending the blacks back to Africa and was shocked that Malcolm X isn't a gibbering monkey but is still careful to note that this isn't evidence for the liberal theory that blacks aren't genetically inferior. How is "go back to Africa" not loving racist? Anyway. Um, so if big wars of conquest can only be fought by a prior-existing State with a large tax base that can print money and monetize the debt then, uh, where did ISIL come from? Is it an invasion from some alternate-dimension World Caliphate? VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Jan 23, 2015 |
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Jan 23, 2015 16:54
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VitalSigns posted:Um, so if big wars of conquest can only be fought by a prior-existing State with a large tax base that can print money and monetize the debt then, uh, where did ISIL come from? They came back through the Stargate 
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Jan 23, 2015 17:06
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Sephyr posted:You don't get it, Caros. Hoppe was just giving that guy a platform out of his overweening love for free speech and the open exchange of ideas. Which is why he also had stalinists, franciscan monks advocating universal vows of poverty, and Farrakhan-style african supremacists all sharing the same stage, right? Look statehead, if any stalinists, franciscan monks, or African supremacists had asked to speak at his thing, I'm totally sure HHH would have eagerly granted them that chance. It's just that for whatever reason, stalinists, franciscan monks, and African supremacists had no interest in speaking to HHH's fans while a white supremacist totally did for some reason. Was Strom Thurmond racist? He fought tooth and nail to preserve segregation for African Americans, but he said he totally wasn't racist against them so I guess he was really a progressive great guy.
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Jan 23, 2015 17:07
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jrod, you mentioned several times during your posts last night that you hold debate to high importance, especially when it comes to discussing issues like the ones being brought up. So have you considered taking up the offers to have a live debate? I know Caros has a standing offer to debate you on healthcare and I want to debate you on whether or not the Non-Aggression Principal is moral. I'll reiterate that I'm willing to let you choose the style of the debate, either free form or structured with opening statements, rebuttals, timed question segments, and closing statements. I'll even allow you to pick the moderators, if any. I'm willing to give you literally every advantage, and I'm willingness to bet Caros would to. I'd also like to extend an offer to debate whether or not taxation is theft and/or force. I'm confident I'd be able to make the case that it is not in a manner you would not be able to refute without taking several hours to scour mises.org. You are, of course, allowed to ignore this and continue to be an intellectual coward. You do have the freedom, to be sure.
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Jan 23, 2015 17:12
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SedanChair posted:Mods: requesting namechange to "quarter of man," TIA. I just got too excited and left out the A. Just like when Neil Armstrong landed on the moon. Yeah, that's right, just like Armstrong. 
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Jan 23, 2015 17:15
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