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Sigma-X posted:I'm just glad we chose the week I moved to an MMO company to discuss how terrible it is to work on MMOs Pfft, you're telling me - this entire conversation started from "I've got a potential interview at an MMO company! Joy!"
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Jan 22, 2015 06:27
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Shalinor posted:
If I remember my games thread conversation history, I think he works for the company that pulls guns on employees...
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Jan 22, 2015 06:50
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wodin posted:I think this point might be where there's some fundamental differences in approach - if you're working on a game, if you don't love it yourself and play it yourself then you're going to get disconnected and unable to do the job really quick.
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Jan 22, 2015 07:06
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Mango Polo posted:So... been working on a game since mid-2013 and hey would you look at that it's now publicly announced! Congrats! This game looks very similar to the types of games I worked on at the last video game developer I worked at. And by that, I mean almost identical! You guys are located in Berlin? How come the website is in English? If you guys were here in Cali, I'd be tempted to apply for one of the designer positions since I have so much experience with this kinda stuff. Practically a perfect fit for me!
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Jan 22, 2015 11:46
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Mr Interweb posted:Congrats! This game looks very similar to the types of games I worked on at the last video game developer I worked at. And by that, I mean almost identical! Haha, cheers. Agent Alice went through so many narrative iterations until we boiled it down to its current state that I'm really curious as to which project you worked on. As for Berlin/English stuff, we operate 100% in English and the city itself is extremely English & expat-friendly. Don't want to shill any positions, but feel free to PM me if you want more information 
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Jan 22, 2015 13:36
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I know almost nothing about Hidden Object games but I recognize that it's a huge genre with a pretty significant market share, especially among women. Does anyone have suggestions about titles I could look at for some idea about what these things are about? Preferably on PC since it's all I own, no mobile.
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Jan 22, 2015 14:13
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mutata posted:While I agree that this makes things better, I disagree, at least in the art department. I love and play games with art that would bore me to tears to create and I've been really into making art for games that I have no interest in playing. I enjoy playing games and I enjoy making art in different ways and in different parts of my brain. This is true for me as well. My favorite job so far (art-wise) was on a farmville type of game where I got to animate faries, leprechauns and mythical creatures all day long. I would never play a game like that but I had fun making it.
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Jan 22, 2015 14:23
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Comte de Saint-Germain posted:I know almost nothing about Hidden Object games but I recognize that it's a huge genre with a pretty significant market share, especially among women. Does anyone have suggestions about titles I could look at for some idea about what these things are about? Preferably on PC since it's all I own, no mobile. Sure, here's some stuff to look at. Classic HOG
F2P HOG
Since the past 2-3 years lots of people are trying out the F2P route because of the Gardens of Time "success", but to be fair that's also the hardest and most dangerous because it requires both a huge resource commitment and some drat good knowledge of F2P mechanics to succeed. The Russians have their own stuff which I didn't include because they're nuts. In contrast, Big Fish style HOGs can perform quite well if you're at least semi capable of analyzing other HOGs. Mango Polo fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Jan 22, 2015 |
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Jan 22, 2015 15:57
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Pseudoscorpion posted:Pfft, you're telling me - this entire conversation started from "I've got a potential interview at an MMO company! Joy!" Every MMO team takes bets on when the new guy's hopes, dreams and spirit are crushed into a pile of goo. This just started early! Speaking of which, I'm learning an entirely new level of pain - working on a *crowdfunded* MMO.
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Jan 22, 2015 18:42
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Lum_ posted:Every MMO team takes bets on when the new guy's hopes, dreams and spirit are crushed into a pile of goo. This just started early! If it's the same crowdfunded MMO I'm thinking of, there's also the great fun of coordinating 4+ different studios working on it? 
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Jan 22, 2015 18:48
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Jan posted:If it's the same crowdfunded MMO I'm thinking of, there's also the great fun of coordinating 4+ different studios working on it? haha no, though I know a lot of the guys on it. I was hired as a designer by Richard Garriott 2 weeks after he gave an interview proclaiming that all designers not him sucked. Now I get to work for thousands of backers, all of whom want different things VERY PASSIONATELY and all of whom hate each other as only people on MMO forums can.
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Jan 22, 2015 18:54
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I'm surprised Lord British is still working to be honest, especially on MMOs, his last MMO didn't go so well.
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Jan 22, 2015 18:59
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OwlFancier posted:I'm surprised Lord British is still working to be honest, especially on MMOs, his last MMO didn't go so well. There's a rich tradition of MMO devs never giving up and promising that THIS time, it'll be THE MMO that gives the "real" players just what they want! See Crowfall as the most recent example.
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Jan 22, 2015 19:05
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Shalinor posted:It's the weird catch 22. Innovative MMOs are super rare, so the likelihood of you working on them pre-release is super low, and post-release MMO is a whole different, boring, and generally soul-sucking ballgame - because you can't really shift goalposts at that point, your subscribers just want "more, faster!", so your work shifts mostly to thrashing and pipeline optimization. Especially dull for programmers, since the days of making new mechanics are, usually, long past. I've actually found working on expansions and live-content to be one of the most satisfying parts of my job. Again, I think a lot of this is a big difference between design and code - but also a big part is working on a game that is willing to do exciting/big things post-release.
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Jan 22, 2015 19:21
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devilmouse posted:There's a rich tradition of MMO devs never giving up and promising that THIS time, it'll be THE MMO that gives the "real" players just what they want! See Crowfall as the most recent example. Well, also, Ultima games were always kind of world-simulator types, and those kinds of games/people who enjoy making those kinds of games are probably drawn to games where many people can interact with the same persistent world.
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Jan 22, 2015 19:23
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OwlFancier posted:I'm surprised Lord British is still working to be honest, especially on MMOs, his last MMO didn't go so well. Honestly I'm surprised he hasn't come out with a balls hard Dark Souls MMO style game. I mean that was basically Ultima Online when it first came out. Leaving town was a death sentence.
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Jan 22, 2015 19:39
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devilmouse posted:There's a rich tradition of MMO devs never giving up and promising that THIS time, it'll be THE MMO that gives the "real" players just what they want! See Crowfall as the most recent example. I don't want to be a jerk but almost every encounter I've had with upper level design leads in the MMO space have been legitimately people who did not understand anything about the space but they were getting re-hired after every failed project because "they already have plenty of experience". Like really basic stuff like their idea of design was "take something we don't like in WoW and don't have it" without understanding why WoW has it and what alternative systems your game needs to compensate for not having that thing. At least one person didn't want us to have any money drains in our endgame because it irritated him in other games, not understanding that this is necessary to prevent rapid inflation. I also had to fight an exec to get him to make it so that our PvP Arenas were queue-anywhere rather than "go to a specific location to queue" because he was concerned about "teleporting around" ruining the feel of the game, not recognizing that location-based queueing is a really solid way to make sure that nobody plays your arena content ever for any reason. theflyingorc fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Jan 22, 2015 |
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Jan 22, 2015 19:44
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I forgot to go to my daily morning stand-up because I was too busy running around the office, elevator-pitching a game idea that came to me in the shower. And I also interrupted a design meeting with this pitch. Everyone was jazzed about it, and no one got mad at me for forgetting my normal responsibilities for a sec. I'm really glad I work at a studio that condones this behavior from me, I don't think I'd survive anywhere else! My only concern is that it becomes the property of the studio as soon as I officially put the pitch to paper; I really want to make this game, whether it's here or not, so maybe I need to ask for permission to take it with me if we don't make it. (or be ok with my pants being sued off later)
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Jan 22, 2015 20:10
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theflyingorc posted:I don't want to be a jerk but almost every encounter I've had with upper level design leads in the MMO space have been legitimately people who did not understand anything about the space but they were getting re-hired after every failed project because "they already have plenty of experience". This is, unfortunately, a common problem -- and not just in the MMO genre. I routinely see it in engineering and production tracks as well.
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Jan 22, 2015 20:19
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Pixelboy posted:This is, unfortunately, a common problem -- and not just in the MMO genre. The Peter Principle truly knows no limits.
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Jan 22, 2015 20:23
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theflyingorc posted:I don't want to be a jerk but almost every encounter I've had with upper level design leads in the MMO space have been legitimately people who did not understand anything about the space but they were getting re-hired after every failed project because "they already have plenty of experience". Design by pet-peeve is one of the worst signs of mediocrity. Have had to deal with this several times as well, it's the worst.
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Jan 22, 2015 20:26
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Pixelboy posted:This is, unfortunately, a common problem -- and not just in the MMO genre. edit: There are some obvious exceptions theflyingorc fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Jan 22, 2015 |
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Jan 22, 2015 20:27
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Buckwheat Sings posted:Honestly I'm surprised he hasn't come out with a balls hard Dark Souls MMO style game. I mean that was basically Ultima Online when it first came out. Leaving town was a death sentence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3zXNn6YP-8 It at least SOUNDS like they're doing that "it's a co-op game in a shared world / but you can be just co-op too if you want, or SP" style of MMO I always wanted to take a swing at. If that is indeed the kind of game it is, they could in fact make it be balls hard, because people can opt-out of the unfair huge world if they want to. It has all the parts it needs to be that. It could honest to god be the UO successor we've all wanted for a decade. ... but, they're playing it close to the chest, so who knows. They were at PAX, and I got to talk to one of the seniors who sat beside me in the exhibitor's lounge for lunch one day. Got a cool challenge coin and everything. Most I got was that working for Garriot is exactly as challenging and cool/frustrating as you'd expect an auteur-driven dev house to be. Shalinor fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Jan 22, 2015 |
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Jan 22, 2015 21:40
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A lot of old-school devs give off the impression that their success was in a "big idea" and trailblazing new ground and I'm not really sure that translates to being able to innovate inside a well-established genre.
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Jan 22, 2015 21:49
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djkillingspree posted:Design by pet-peeve is one of the worst signs of mediocrity. Have had to deal with this several times as well, it's the worst. I think the most baffling thing is so many people deciding "the game I want to play the most" is also "the game everybody wants to play the most." I can't tell you the number of times I've run into an Ideas Guy that was totally blindsided by the questions "OK, so how many other people would want to play your game do you think? Why should people other than you like your game? What does your game offer that other games don't?" Sure, if you want your own perfect game for your own tastes then you can ignore that and I for one would happily create somebody's perfect game for the right size paycheck. But if you intend on selling it then you kind of need to ask those questions. But then, I'm a stupid college student so what do I know? But then I'm probably a bit cynical as I've spent way more time than I would like to admit to getting pitched really loving stupid ideas when looking for freelance work. I've also run into a poo poo load of people that wanted me to work for free "but I'll totally pay you when the game gets kickstarted." Yeah, and if it doesn't? Sorry, I don't work for vague promises and paychecks marked "maybe." Is there much freelance programming work to be had in the gaming world? I went looking and so far most of the people interested were either wanting somebody to work for free or expected months and months of work in return for $250.
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Jan 22, 2015 21:54
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Is there much freelance programming work to be had in the gaming world? I went looking and so far most of the people interested were either wanting somebody to work for free or expected months and months of work in return for $250. We'll occasionally do short-term 6-16 week contracts for engineers, but I don't know how common it is.
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Jan 22, 2015 22:06
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devilmouse posted:We'll occasionally do short-term 6-16 week contracts for engineers, but I don't know how common it is. If you're serious about it, PM me and I can ask a friend that makes a living as a freelance games coder. Lots of product pitching, publisher connections developed slowly, etc. Also lots of stories of getting screwed. Not sure it's a space I'd want to be in, myself. EDIT: Honestly, it's probably like any other freelance space, in that the business you find is all about what connections you've got, doing it longer gets you better connections, and especially early on some clients are going to gently caress you out of serious money. Though I feel like coding contracts are longer term than art, so maybe coder freelancers tend to get screwed out of more? Not sure. Shalinor fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Jan 22, 2015 |
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Jan 22, 2015 22:31
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djkillingspree posted:Design by pet-peeve is one of the worst signs of mediocrity. Have had to deal with this several times as well, it's the worst. The real danger with "pet peeve" issues is if they're secretly supporting important things what happens is that thousands of players silently quit playing your game out of mild boredom, not even knowing why. My MMO had a ton of empty space in it (to be sandboxy and open) and large travel times with no fast travel early on. The designers wanted the world to feel large and sprawling, but I imagine that we lost thousands and thousands of players who quit after 2-3 days because they were tired of driving through empty terrain for 20 minutes to get anywhere and do anything. I understand not wanting the quick-world-map hopping of something like Elder Scrolls: Oblivion (where everything is a loading screen away), but their inability to grasp that a middle ground was needed to make $$$ was really frustrating.
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Jan 22, 2015 22:41
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theflyingorc posted:It's literally the least valuable skill a designer can have, in my opinion - and I think skilled designers can look at most "pet peeve" issues and see the reason things work that way. That's what happened to me, honestly. Though the way the crafting system complemented that was pretty cool.
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Jan 23, 2015 06:19
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Brackhar posted:That's what happened to me, honestly. Though the way the crafting system complemented that was pretty cool. Our new player to long term player conversion was awful. Our crafting was cool, but the lack of specialization (because "it sucks that you can't build everything!") meant that we had absolutely no economy. Pet peeve driven design. 
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Jan 23, 2015 08:03
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Wait people were building these giant, expensive MMOs without building in heavy metrics to measure, predict, and prevent player churn? Wow, how did these companies convince anyone to fund these games without data like that? When I worked on free to play stuff, people fetishized these metrics and hugged ARPPU tighter than a body pillow.
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Jan 23, 2015 08:25
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Chainclaw posted:Wait people were building these giant, expensive MMOs without building in heavy metrics to measure, predict, and prevent player churn? Wow, how did these companies convince anyone to fund these games without data like that? I see f2p as kind of a successor to MMOs in terms of being the 'hot' game thing to throw money at if you're an investor or large publisher. However this generation is slightly more business savvy and they learned about metrics from business school or whatever. I don't think it's really helping design though. There are a lot of people in f2p that suffer from 'when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail' syndrome, with the hammer being metrics. There's a lot of 'X game has great Y metric ... and it is because of <random feature that has nothing to do with the success of the game and/or isn't relevant to your game> so we need that too' going on.
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Jan 23, 2015 08:51
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Bicuspid posted:I don't think it's really helping design though. There are a lot of people in f2p that suffer from 'when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail' syndrome, with the hammer being metrics. There's a lot of 'X game has great Y metric ... and it is because of <random feature that has nothing to do with the success of the game and/or isn't relevant to your game> so we need that too' going on.
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Jan 23, 2015 16:35
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I'm learning to treasure Steam reviews. My favorite so far: User 438 hours on record "I can't recommend this game..."
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Jan 23, 2015 17:03
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Bicuspid posted:I don't think it's really helping design though. There are a lot of people in f2p that suffer from 'when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail' syndrome, with the hammer being metrics. There's a lot of 'X game has great Y metric ... and it is because of <random feature that has nothing to do with the success of the game and/or isn't relevant to your game> so we need that too' going on. Idiots will remain idiots, even if you give them numbers. Makes the opposite so delicious though: having someone say "hm I'm not sure that's a good idea because fartz", do it anyway and then a month later have the numbers to prove it was an excellent idea.
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Jan 23, 2015 17:19
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icking fudiot posted:Holy crap I didn't know it was the same people, that makes so much sense. I figured I'd give this a try for a few minutes last night at about ten-ish. Some vampire shooting before bed helps me sleep, you know? Then it was two in the morning how did this happen oh god movement is so much fun.
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Jan 23, 2015 17:49
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Anyone in Seattle, please come by this week for some interesting tech talk: https://www.shinra.com/us/news/2015-1-20-shinra-in-seattle-an-invitation-for-developers
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Jan 23, 2015 19:09
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Bicuspid posted:I don't think it's really helping design though. There are a lot of people in f2p that suffer from 'when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail' syndrome, with the hammer being metrics. There's a lot of 'X game has great Y metric ... and it is because of <random feature that has nothing to do with the success of the game and/or isn't relevant to your game> so we need that too' going on. The glib way I'd phrase it is that metrics can tell you what's happening, but a designer can tell you why. From casual conversations with peers at other companies, every modern MMO makes pretty extensive use of metrics, and i'd be absolutely shocked if someone who is starting a new AAA-scale project doesn't build in support from the ground up. A decade ago that stuff was black sorcery, now you can read all about it with some casual google searches. Finding good people who are good at closing the loop and getting the data to you quickly might still be a challenge, but even lagging indicators can be very valuable.
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Jan 24, 2015 00:35
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Carfax Report posted:Anyone in Seattle, please come by this week for some interesting tech talk: I'll go, how are you involved?
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Jan 24, 2015 07:40
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theflyingorc posted:It's literally the least valuable skill a designer can have, in my opinion - and I think skilled designers can look at most "pet peeve" issues and see the reason things work that way. Surely someone who is designing MMOs for a living would come to something like the conclusion that they aren't supposed to be fun, in the sense that say, a traditional singleplayer FPS is fun. If the game gives you all its content that quickly, you end up with a short lived game, like a 20 hour FPS. Being unsatisfied with the game, but not quite unsatisfied enough to quit is the ideal point of an MMO or F2P game because that means you keep playing it (and paying for it) to get to the bit where it will become fun. I mean there's seeing through the MMO model to the point where you can't really enjoy them, but it's weird to then go on and try to make an MMO without realising that that is the entire point of them. Do people really believe in the perfect game which is, like, a version of Half Life 2 you can play for 1000 hours with no repeating content and a persistent world or something?
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Jan 24, 2015 09:01
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