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Corbeau posted:On the other hand, you get Riot Grrl link teams. First game of our league tonight! I took pictures of our 6 tables but my camera died and I'll have to post them up later, was nice to see such a decent turn out though. 
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Jan 23, 2015 00:56
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Imma going to a 250pts tourney in march. Im thinking: Lt Bolt, Combi Bolt, SpitBolt, HackBolt, MedicBolt, Fusi, SpitDeva, HackDeva and a Garuda.
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Jan 23, 2015 01:46
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We're escalating to 250pts on Round 3 & 4 in two weeks time and I'm curious on changing from PanO to NCA. I've allowed players to flick between sectorials/vanilla in faction but as long as they stay with the core faction. Might be time to rock the Bolt train.
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Jan 23, 2015 01:56
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So I am writing a selection of lists for a not-a-tournament Infinity day at a nearby club. It's 4 games and they rule that your list must change 25% in each one. I doubt they are measuring that much, since they are not an uptight bunch. It's definitely a bit of a challenge for a sectorial though and I am stretching around the various Corregidor options. Will try some 2-combat group lists for once. Really, almost all my lists start with a 5-link of alguaciles or wildcats though. (I have written lists for a brigada link, but I still don't have enough models)
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Jan 23, 2015 18:10
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Brigada link is pricey as gently caress but it's a decent one at 3 models, you really need to get the investment out of it though because it isn't cheap. Jaguar link will be pretty sweet in Corregidor for sure.
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Jan 23, 2015 18:53
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So, as PanO, do I suck up the 14-20 points for my one possible Engineer and 1-2 palbots, and just accept that he sucks and I'll spnd my command tokens for rerolls, because engineers are that important? Or do i just say gently caress it and freeball it with no engineer and treat everything as disposable/rely on Fairy Dust and such to keep my HI alive, and basically accept that my TAGs are hosed? Sort of the same question with Doctors, but Hospitallers aren't too bad and it seems like engis are more vital than docs nowadays.
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Jan 23, 2015 18:58
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I bring Engineers anyway for specialists at 15pts that can cover the horrible effects that can hit HI/REMs/TAGs, of which I tend to bring in lists. I'd always bring a Machinist even with his lovely WIP and lovely AVA. It sucks but it's all we've got so it makes it that much more important. With Auxbots now being Comms Equipment they're also vulnerable to a few other things, so it's worth packing an Engineer.
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Jan 23, 2015 18:59
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CanCon Pre-Tourney Report! I got to inspect the tables yesterday; two are entirely Nimbus Zones, two are 'shielded', and require LoF to hack. God I hope I don't play on those tables.
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Jan 23, 2015 20:16
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That sounds terrible. Also, post your mans.
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Jan 23, 2015 20:33
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Ever since writing up that summary for Yet Another New Player Thread on the official forums, I've been thinking about unit roles. Going to start putting some of that down for discussion here. When building a list, regardless of faction or sectorial, there are always a set of roles that I'm looking to fill. Infinity is primarily a toolbox game rather than a synergy game: victory comes from applying the appropriate tool to the appropriate situation, not from building powerful combos and synergy chains. A good Infinity list needs to contain a well-rounded toolbox. While each unit is subtly different, overall roles are consistent; I've found that there are roughly six different niches that I aim to fill whenever I build a list. Some units overlap into multiple roles. Some units are specialized. Either way, you want to include lots of orders while maintaining enough redundancy that your opponent can't just assassinate one target (whether a single unit or multiple nearby units) and crush you by exploiting the resulting hole in your capabilities. - Cheerleaders The nature of Infinity means that even cheerleaders can be effective offensive pieces, but that usually isn't their main role. Cheerleaders primarily exist to provide regular orders and basic ARO defence against airborne deployment at minimum cost. These are typically a faction's line infantry, the most inexpensive bare-bones units that you can buy. Quantity is more important than quality for this role, but the occasional factional perk can be welcome (like BS12 on PanO Fusiliers, the Morat skill on Morat Vanguard Infantry, or WIP14 and underslung light shotguns on Haqq Ghulams). Cheerleaders usually need to be deployed defensively, with limited lines of fire, since they lack powerful long-range AROs and have no special survival abilities. Anything can kill anything else in Infinity, and often will, but it's usually more efficient to channel cheerleaders' orders into units specialized for whatever particular job is required. - Strikers Strikers are offensive units designed for maximum killing efficiency. This efficiency can come in variety of ways: a model with Infiltration, Impersonation, or Airborne Deployment can be an efficient striker because they require fewer orders moving in order to reach the enemy, thereby increasing your reach. Models with multiple wounds and high base stats can be efficient due to limited risk: a single lucky ARO won't eliminate the orders invested into moving, and they might even survive a reactive turn while in a forward position (though don't count on it unless they're well supported). Other figures are just plain fast, or posses special movement abilities like Super-Jump that can bypass terrain or defensive fire - again, requiring relatively few orders before they're in killing range. - Controllers (forward and ranged) Board control units are the main thing preventing an enemy striker from waltzing over and gutting your order pool every single game. Board control is a tricky thing to pull off in Infinity, since it's so positionally-dependent, but it's also one of the most powerful. If your opponent lacks appropriate long-range tools then a single sniper or missile launcher can deny him huge swathes of the table. Total Reaction or Neurocenetic units can act much like snipers, except that they typically require different tools to eliminate reliably. Ranged control is all about locking down extended fire lanes though; different control tactics become applicable in tight terrain with limited fire lanes. Mines (particularly on camo minelayer units) and direct template weapons can exact a heavy toll to clear in close quarters. Almost any durable unit can exert forward control just by going into suppressive fire - though entering that state requires spending an order, so it doesn't prevent the dreaded first-turn alpha strike if you're going second. In every case, the controller's effectiveness depends on the importance of the ground that they're denying (or at least making extremely expensive to cross). The order economy is central to Infinity; what makes controllers exceptional is that they can nullify vast chunks of the opponent's order pool. If the opponent has an easy answer available, or can just bypass the ground being defended, then a controller is nearly worthless. Reading the terrain table from the start of the game - before even the initial Lt. roll-off! - is essential both for setting up and taking down controllers. - Specialists Most Infinity scenarios require Specialist units: doctors, hackers, engineers, forward observers, etc. Much like strikers, the most efficient specialists are the ones that deploy in forward positions and/or have stats and abilities that make them resistant to bad luck (while high BS is most important to most roles, high WIP is the stat to look for in specialists). My personal favorite (and I'm far from alone on this) are TO Camo specialists, preferably of the Infiltrating variety. They're hard to kill, require few orders to move around, and can remain safely in hidden deployment until you need them to complete the mission. As a bonus, most specialists also fulfill utility functions that, while a bit more list-dependent, can be very useful even outside scenarios. - Sweepers (forward and ranged) Every list needs tools for breaking through board control. I think of such units as sweepers: they exist to clear paths of movement for your strikers and specialists. It's entirely possible, though less likely with N3's HMG nerfs, that your sweeping piece is also your striker. When those roles can be combined, the result is horrifyingly efficient (which is why most striker/sweeper units were nerfed by range band changes in N3). The classic sweeping weapon is the HMG: high burst, high range, high damage. A sweeper with multispectral visor is going to murder anything short of a Total Reaction HMG, while a sweeper with camo will gun down anything short of a camo sniper (and can kill that too, if within range, though not particularly efficiently due to the amount of whiffing likely to be going on). Other weapons are capable of sweeping the board, but they're usually more dependent on terrain or more susceptible to bad luck due to lower burst. Not all control is based purely on long range though: mines, midfield camo, and/or suppressive fire are also tools of board control. If well placed in positions that you truly cannot bypass and cannot out-range (the preferred methods for dealing with them), such close-quarters forward control tools require answers of their own to tackle. Template weapons, whether direct templates or speculatively fired impact templates, can be useful for forcing enemy mid-fielders out of suppressive fire (regardless of camo/mimetism/ODD). Cheap impetuous bodies, cheap ghost remotes, or even an actual minesweeper remote can be used to clear out minefields at minimum order and point cost. Plus, though the solution isn't quite as permanent as an HMG burst, many cheap warbands can also bypass long range board control by laying down smoke screens. Smoke isn't very efficient if you would need to blanket a huge area, but it can work very well in conjunction with cautious movement if you just need to cross one particular sniper-covered street (or similar area). - Visors If you don't have a Multispectral Visor in your army, then sooner or later you're going to hit a brick wall due to ODD or TO Camo. It's possibly to deal with those abilities without MSVs, but it's nowhere near as efficient as just shooting them in the face with an MSV trooper. I tend to consider MSV to be crucial on sweepers, since some of the best board control ARO units rely on TO Camo or Mimetism to stay alive and threatening, but MSV can also be extremely useful on controllers themselves. Smoke is a common way of nullifying long range ARO lockdown, but an MSV2 sniper won't be bothered at all. An MSV striker is no bad thing either, since a fair number of forward enemies rely on camo or mimetism to survive. While I wouldn't field MSV on an otherwise basic cheerleader, having MSV on the troops fulfilling other roles is extremely helpful - if they're available to your faction, you should probably take one or two MSVs in some role. e: WAR FOOT posted:CanCon Pre-Tourney Report!  This sounds really dumb. e2: Revised sweeper section. e3: Tweaked opening paragraph. e4: Tweaked controller and sweeper sections to explicitly add sub-distinctions between forward and ranged control. Corbeau fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Jan 24, 2015 |
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Jan 23, 2015 20:41
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Had my first game of N3 last night, and had such rotten luck (or rather, my opponent had such amazing luck) that it was hilarious. Firing 5 Spitfire shots from cover and at a bad range for the enemy ARO so I hit on 15's and he on 6's? ARO crit. This happened some 3 times. Really need to get used to the new weapo nranges. Missile Launchers in particular are only good from really far away. Rocket launchers are fearsome. It was a fun game, but really, really slow as we had to check everything online. Army5 cannot come fast enough. And Hacking gave both of us a turn. So noe a hacker doesn't get an automatic reaction when an enemy enacts a program, and it's just a plain FtF WiP roll modified by the programs, then a damage roll to see f the effect sticks? Is there any way to intervene into a hacking attack from the outside? The basic book could really use some better examples.
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Jan 23, 2015 21:23
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Corbeau posted:Ever since writing up that summary for Yet Another New Player Thread on the official forums, I've been thinking about unit roles. Going to start putting some of that down for discussion here.
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Jan 23, 2015 21:30
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Sephyr posted:
Correct, the N2 style "defensive hacking" is gone. Now everyone gets a Reset (which is just Hacking Dodge) and then there's a damage rating and a BTS roll (which is just Hacking Armor), just like shooting. There's no ARO way to intervene, but Fairy Dust gives all your HI a Firewall which is Hacking Cover, basically.
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Jan 23, 2015 21:41
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Flipswitch posted:on a scale of one to butts where would you put the Cutter as it's now the Worst TAG in the Game. ??? Is there some overlaid layer of sarcasm I'm not picking up on here? I know it lost the HFT and its marker can no longer be mistaken for a S2 model's, but it is still a TO Camo TAG. Corbeau, I think that is a fairly good way of thinking about things, but it would be important to make new players understand that those are only categories and there are plenty of ways to bend or circumvent those guidelines. Also, I would generally agree with the MSV piece but also point out that direct template weapons, especially flamethrowers, can be another way to crush TO/ODD troops without the usual drawbacks. Also, while a great boost to a normal or advantageous face-off, TO/ODD won't always save a model from a piss-poor position. If I catch you in the open, in my good range with an HMG or spitfire, you'll have to be drat lucky in ARO to save your rear end.
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Jan 23, 2015 21:47
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Genghis Cohen posted:??? Is there some overlaid layer of sarcasm I'm not picking up on here? I know it lost the HFT and its marker can no longer be mistaken for a S2 model's, but it is still a TO Camo TAG. ALEPH Toolbox is N3! http://anyplace.it/ia3/ia.html
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Jan 23, 2015 21:54
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Sephyr posted:And Hacking gave both of us a turn. So noe a hacker doesn't get an automatic reaction when an enemy enacts a program, and it's just a plain FtF WiP roll modified by the programs, then a damage roll to see f the effect sticks? Is there any way to intervene into a hacking attack from the outside? The basic book could really use some better examples. Remember that if your opponent hacks, say a HI/TAG or other target, you don't necessarily hack back. The target model can always reset. (as explained above) But if he tries to hack one of your own hackers you can aro with one of the anti-hacker programs available to (non-assault) hacking devices. Similarly if any model moves into your hacking area (ZoC of a hacker or of any of your repeaters) you can declare a hacking ARO (you would have to target the active model). This could lead to situations where you end up sort-of-opposing a hack. EG an enemy ninja hacker moves up and tries to hack my Iguana, using the amazing CLAW programs and applying the surprise mods to his reset. However when he declares the first part of the order (move, into the Iguana's ZoC) I can ARO 'Brain Blast' with my Wildcats hacker. The Ninja now has to declare his second skill, and if he uses a CLAW program against the TAG, he is leaving himself very vulnerable to my counter-attack. As a matter of fact with an assault hacking device, I think his only chance to oppose me with FtF may be reset. So as you can see, integral repeaters or your own hacker standing next to a target can be a pretty good deterrent to enemy hackers. The key change is just that your chance to ARO depends on the opponent activating a model in your hacking area, not just anywhere on the table.
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Jan 23, 2015 21:59
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Genghis Cohen posted:Also, I would generally agree with the MSV piece but also point out that direct template weapons, especially flamethrowers, can be another way to crush TO/ODD troops without the usual drawbacks. Flamethrowers are good defensively against TO/ODD, but they're actually kind of not very good anymore on offense. Now that you can dodge them on straight PH, it takes a lot more orders (on average) to kill stuff. Probably fine if it's an expensive Swiss; not so fine against a cheap Myrmidon.
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Jan 23, 2015 22:12
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A quick note though is that if the Ninja doesn't declare a hacking attempt, he won't trigger an ARO out of LoF because he has Stealth. Worth mentioning because it does limit AROs to Stealth Hackers. If he does hack you can ARO normally as per your example, it just changes the timing structure
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Jan 23, 2015 22:13
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Corbeau posted:Flamethrowers are good defensively against TO/ODD, but they're actually kind of not very good anymore on offense. Now that you can dodge them on straight PH, it takes a lot more orders (on average) to kill stuff. Probably fine if it's an expensive Swiss; not so fine against a cheap Myrmidon. They're not as good at straight up killing, but they do force dodges instead of shooting AROs and can often flush people out of positions where they were preventing you from getting poo poo done. They're exactly what your Sweeper category describes.
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Jan 23, 2015 22:14
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JoshTheStampede posted:They're not as good at straight up killing, but they do force dodges instead of shooting AROs and can often flush people out of positions where they were preventing you from getting poo poo done. I guess they are reasonable at being able to knock an ODD or TO model out of suppressive fire, but they really lack the range that a sweeper requires in my mind. e: Template weapons probably do deserve a mention for being able to intuitive attack camo defenses, but if you're close enough to flamethrower a ranged controller then in my mind you're a striker, not a sweeper. Corbeau fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Jan 23, 2015 |
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Jan 23, 2015 22:16
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Corbeau posted:Flamethrowers are good defensively against TO/ODD, but they're actually kind of not very good anymore on offense. Now that you can dodge them on straight PH, it takes a lot more orders (on average) to kill stuff. Probably fine if it's an expensive Swiss; not so fine against a cheap Myrmidon. I get your point and I have seen that in my games so far. I would also point out that while it makes dodging more attractive, denying cover mods to ARM rolls is a part-compensation for that in most situations. I will never cease to be surprised by how entitled some internet-dwellers can be. Real quote from the infinity forums, on hearing of the rumoured February releases: Kanluwen, on 23 Jan 2015 - 8:30 PM, said: Supposedly she's in line for a resculpt, and Angel Giraldez is getting a variant of the forthcoming model to be exclusive to his book's preorders. In regards to the Alguaciles? I don't care at this point. I want a redone CJC starter, and the offer to trade in my now outscaled models at no cost. Edit note: The only reason I want an offer to trade in my models is because of the sheer number of them I have. I bought 3 CJC starters for my CJC force when they came out. If I had known that they were going to screw me with the scale change, I wouldn't have bothered wasting my money. END QUOTE. How the everloving gently caress? Corregidor, following a general cycle of bounty and resculpts, get a Nomad starter (4/6 models Corregidor) and now a promised Alguacil SWC box. Is this consumer happy? Does he look forward to playing with his new space dolls? No, they owe him more, drat it! He only bought an insane amount of them on the implicit promise that he would love them forever and nothing would ever tarnish their gleam in his eyes. Is this just? Is this right!? Why Corvus Belli, why? What has he done to you that you would harm him so?
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Jan 23, 2015 22:23
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Yeah, Kanluen is a crazy person. In another thread about Bootleg models he said they were cute and all but they should never make them while they still have more important things to get done, and that resculpting the Corregidor range should obviously be CB's highest priority. Clearly they rescaled the models solely to gouge him for cash, and not because models get better and scale changes as your sculptors get better and transition from traditional to CAD. CB should have never improved, apparently.
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Jan 23, 2015 22:27
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I get that he is basically a professional online complaint-maker rather than a gamer or hobbyist or whatever. But god, how does he type such things without some sort of reflection on what it sounds like? Takes all sorts I suppose. I am now trying to make some non-link army lists by applying Corbeau's categories to choose individual models. We'll see how it goes.
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Jan 23, 2015 22:33
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You just need to put Guges and Kanluwen on ignore like every rational person on the official forums.Flipswitch posted:ALEPH Toolbox is N3! --  how can you gently caress it up even more? 
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Jan 23, 2015 22:38
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It's proper spastic to use but points costs are what I care about. Also be wary because g synch bots like Palbots add orders in it.
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Jan 23, 2015 22:44
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Nah, I'll wait. I hated the previous AT and this one makes me want to make list by hand.JoshTheStampede posted:Clearly they rescaled the models solely to gouge him for cash, and not because models get better and scale changes as your sculptors get better and transition from traditional to CAD. CB should have never improved, apparently. But apparently I should bitch and moan about my JSA being underscaled because we're not meeting the monthly Yu Jing whining quota, and when CB ships me bespoke rescaled models cast in sold titanium, master-painted by Angel himself and with an actual Asura to suck my dick, I'll complain that she has fake tits or something. Where the gently caress are my models, CB? I gave you some money, don't you realize this makes you indebted to me for decades? Work harder, slaves! 
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Jan 23, 2015 22:45
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There's a reason why I keep re-typing my lists here. Aleph Toolbox 3 is, at the moment, kind of a pain to use. I hope that's just because it's a work in progress, since it's pretty much the only game in town right now. Also, I heavily revised the section I wrote on sweepers. Partly to address template weapons, but also partly to talk about the role of cheap warbands and smoke. I have a bit of a blind spot regarding smoke, since I've been playing PanO and smoke-less Haqq (don't ask) for like 3 years. I think I've laid down smoke two or three times ever (though it was worth it - it let me get a Naffatun within intuitive attack range of a myrmidon link team). Quoting the revised section: Corbeau posted:- Sweepers Corbeau fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Jan 23, 2015 |
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Jan 23, 2015 22:49
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Pierzak posted:Nah, I'll wait. I hated the previous AT and this one makes me want to make list by hand. Looking at the Ice Storm models next to older ones, it's very clear they have changed their sculpting methods and I dont think anyone can say the new stuff doesn't look worlds better than the early potatofaced fusiliers. There's a lot of detail but they are surprisingly easy to paint, its not like Forge World stuff where there's just 20 tiny skulls on everything and you can never get a clean brushstroke down. People complain about fiddly infinity models, and I did too, until I manned up and painted a couple and it's a lot easier and fun than it looks like it will be. 28 vs 32 is meaningless anyway, there's no standard and two companies that say they make 28mm models will have different sizes even within a range anyway. It may as well be an arbitrary name like Scale X or whatever. It's not hard to be consistent...now. When everything is posed from CG dollies its easy to be consistent. But when you have guys making every model out of clay first it is tricky, and getting it to stay consistent when you transition to CAD just for the sake of it instead of doing what you have to do to make your models look better is silly. They just look better. And yeah, now my Aconticemento Regulars look like poo poo, but thats bceuase THEY ALWAYS LOOKED LIKE poo poo, I just didn't have dope-rear end Fusiliers and Bolts to compare them to at first.
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Jan 23, 2015 22:54
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I remember being hyped about ASA Regulars because how much better they looked than Fusiliers, now it seems funny in comparison. E: 250 list I think for our next escalation in our league. Fusil Lt. Fusil Paramedic Fusil Hacker Machinist (2x Palbot) Nisse HMG Guarda de Assalto SF Croc Man FO Croc Man BS Pathfinder DronBot Sierra DronBot 249pts/5SWC. I'm curious to see if I can cram anything more in by dropping the Palbots, thoughts? VVV Its the massive old Combi Rifles that ruin them for me now, the rest of the models look fine. Flipswitch fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Jan 23, 2015 |
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Jan 23, 2015 22:57
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Flipswitch posted:I remember being hyped about ASA Regulars because how much better they looked than Fusiliers, now it seems funny in comparison. They actually aren't THAT bad in terms of detail, the Lost crew faces look nice, they're just all in that stupid Corvus Belli Heisman pose that I hate.
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Jan 23, 2015 22:58
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About Infinity scales. Their newer stuff does indeed look much better than some of their older models, but the scale transitions are pretty jarring. Case in point: 
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Jan 24, 2015 01:19
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Oh, I agree, Aleph in particular look tiny now, and in PanO the Auxilia and Hexa look like children. But, I think they are moving in the right direction and to expect them to never improve because they started out too small is dumb. In your picture the model on the left looks better than the one on the right (though the one on the right isn't bad really), so I want them all to look like that, rather than insisting everything look like the 2010 model forever.
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Jan 24, 2015 01:48
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At TT height nobody is going to notice anyway, the only real thing I'm not big on was the tiny weapons we got over the last year or two, it's really, really noticable on my Riot Grrls with their babby combi rifles. But honestly the improvements are welcome and event the small minis like that Myrm Officer are leagues ahead of the competition.
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Jan 24, 2015 01:58
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The style is personal preference, I definitely prefer the older ones, many new releases feel samey and uninteresting to me even with more detail and stuff. The painting difficulty is an actual thing, it takes me noticeably longer to finish infinity minis and Malifaux/Warmahorde minis feel easy-mode in comparison. For me it boils down to: CB made a decision, I don't like it and don't agree with the arguments presented, it's not a huge dealbreaker so I'll bear with it, maybe occasionally converting older minis instead of buying the new releases. At least the sexism arguments were entertaining 
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Jan 24, 2015 02:06
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quote:At least the sexism arguments were entertaining Well we can still have those!
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Jan 24, 2015 02:10
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Flipswitch posted:I remember being hyped about ASA Regulars because how much better they looked than Fusiliers, now it seems funny in comparison. I don't think you can take 2 palbots on one model.
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Jan 24, 2015 02:43
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osirisisdead posted:I don't think you can take 2 palbots on one model. You can. You just can activate max 1 servant in a given order, nothing stops you from assigning 2 yudbots to the same Sophotect so she can be in 3 places at once.
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Jan 24, 2015 02:49
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Today I realized that Warcors are legal in ITS now, and are 3 points. Oh but they are irregular? Cool, Joan, fix that for me! PanO netrods! Shame they are only AVA1 though. I just really like the idea of Joan and her pack of bounty hunters and one blogger.
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Jan 24, 2015 02:51
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JoshTheStampede posted:PanO netrods! Shame they are only AVA1 though. I just really like the idea of Joan and her pack of bounty hunters and one blogger. What pack? ABH are AVA1 too, unless you play with the relaxed merc rules (take anything).
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Jan 24, 2015 02:54
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Pierzak posted:What pack? ABH are AVA1 too, unless you play with the relaxed merc rules (take anything). Oh, I didn't notice that in the actual army list. In their entry in the main book it says AVA3 and says any vanilla can take them, nothing in there about AVA1. Oh well, then it's one ABH, Miranda, and a warcor to film it all, I guess. It's weird, must just be an oversight, but warcors are AVA2 and then the little red text says they can be taken by any vanilla at AVA1. ABH are AVA3 and have the red text too but don't say anything about AVA1, but then have AVA1 in the actual army list. Boo.
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Jan 24, 2015 02:59
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