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Flesh Forge posted:See you're trying to start this from an objective value judgement but everyone else is simply pragmatic about it. The threat of pvp to someone who would prefer to avoid it (which, in RPGs, is very nearly every person) is simply a risk to be brought as close to zero as possible. There are two basic alternatives: make pvp more appealing to that 99% who hates it in its common form, or force them to endure it anyway. Guess which technique Shadowbane and various other flopped pvp games have always tried. So what's the point of even having an RPG then if you're forced into the role of Legolas the Nice-Guy from Law-Abiding-Citizenville. Set aside notions about gear, leveling, etc. -- You're telling me there's no room in the market for an RPG that affords you the freedom to actually roleplay a bad guy or a good guy? I think there is room and I think it can be done. Shadowbane was an unhealthy extreme for a lot of reasons already mentioned in this thread but I don't think everyone can just point to Shadowbane as the example of how there is no future for pvp MMOs.
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Jan 14, 2015 03:30
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Tell me how farming gear and making xp bars go from left to right repeatedly has anything at all to do with roleplaying the good guy or bad guy, or roleplaying in any sense at all. note: I actually enjoy farming gear and making xp bars go from left to right, but to me these activities are very distant from roleplaying (and pvp).
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Jan 14, 2015 21:17
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RPG is an acronym that means jack poo poo sort of like MMO. I was roleplaying as a space marine in the RPG Halo recently.
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Jan 14, 2015 21:48
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RPG is meaningless in itself but over time developed different conventions including the progression over time of the main character and game mechanics being directed at least in part by smashing one set of statistics against another whether overtly or behind the scenes.
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Jan 15, 2015 15:25
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rage at me posted:So what's the point of even having an RPG then if you're forced into the role of Legolas the Nice-Guy from Law-Abiding-Citizenville. Set aside notions about gear, leveling, etc. -- You're telling me there's no room in the market for an RPG that affords you the freedom to actually roleplay a bad guy or a good guy? I think there is room and I think it can be done. Shadowbane was an unhealthy extreme for a lot of reasons already mentioned in this thread but I don't think everyone can just point to Shadowbane as the example of how there is no future for pvp MMOs. I remember reading an article a long time ago about why "evil" players were ruining UO because for the majority of them being evil meant acting like a complete psychopath. For them, roleplaying an evil character meant nothing more than leveraging game mechanics to inflict the maximum amount of grief and time-loss possible on players who were, more often than not, total strangers. For every bandit running a toll-bridge roleplay session there were 10 people who would just kill anyone if they thought they could get away with it, corpse camped, or otherwise made it a point to gently caress someone's poo poo up and waste hundreds of hours worth of time invested. It's not hard to figure out why open-world PvP games have a hard time maintaining healthy populations of players who aren't all internet sociopaths.
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Jan 16, 2015 03:29
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Typical Pubbie posted:For every bandit running a toll-bridge roleplay session there were 10 people who would just kill anyone if they thought they could get away with it... In my experience with UO this was more like 1 to 100. Literally the only people I ever ran into who mixed RP with PVP were the Orc dudes, who were fun, but every other pvp encounter I had was with silent gank squads.
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Jan 17, 2015 02:35
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 http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/979-012215-the-crowfall-universe-economycrafting-raph-koster/ quote:I am delighted to (finally) reveal our ongoing collaboration with Raph Koster. For those of you not familiar with Raph, he is one of the most renowned and experienced MMO designers in the world. He was the lead designer on both Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies from inception through launch; two games which really "set the bar" for crafting systems in a virtual world.
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Jan 23, 2015 10:17
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Flesh Forge posted:In my experience with UO this was more like 1 to 100. Literally the only people I ever ran into who mixed RP with PVP were the Orc dudes, who were fun, but every other pvp encounter I had was with silent gank squads. Well, there was that lady who roleplayed a witty thief and managed to grief people like crazy without ever breaking character.
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Jan 23, 2015 15:43
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a medical mystery posted:Well, there was that lady who roleplayed a witty thief and managed to grief people like crazy without ever breaking character. belan
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Jan 23, 2015 18:54
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Eonwe posted:belan yeah that's the name
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Jan 23, 2015 18:56
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Freakazoid_ posted:
im probably going to buy into this whenever they allow suckers like me to pay for it its just so early at this point that i can't bring myself to read the official forums or anything really
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Jan 23, 2015 19:00
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Eonwe posted:i can't bring myself to read the official forums or anything really 
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Jan 23, 2015 19:35
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at least its not asking for a bunch of furry races tho
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Jan 23, 2015 19:46
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Eonwe posted:im probably going to buy into this whenever they allow suckers like me to pay for it For every terrible new mmo there is somebody willing to throw money at devs with horrible track records and no recent experience
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Jan 23, 2015 19:52
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Eonwe posted:at least its not asking for a bunch of furry races tho edit: thanks revolt Impotence fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Jan 25, 2015 |
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Jan 23, 2015 20:08
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Byolante posted:For every terrible new mmo there is somebody willing to throw money at devs with horrible track records and no recent experience thats me! Biowarfare posted:btw good news i am joining the forum moderation team for game nice, i will look forward to the inevitable closed beta key you PM to me for us being terrible game enthusiasts together i was a forums janitor for the starbound forums and it was actually draining lmao
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Jan 23, 2015 20:13
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Freakazoid_ posted:
Designer Dragon, the man who stood up at GDC and told everyone that player-killers needed to be ejected immediately to save your game, citing "broken windows" and the Stanford prison experiment. This should be quite a PVP MMO.
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Jan 23, 2015 23:28
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Puistokemisti posted:What's the point of even having free loot if your gear is basically worthless? You'd have to be a fool to not see this game will probably either be vaporware or a huge flop, but I'll anticipate and follow it all the same. Games like UO, SB, EVE, even Darkfall all contain fundamental concepts that can make for extremely fun and unique MMO experiences. Shadowbane was the first MMO I ever played and though it really sucked in a lot of ways, I can't help but compare every other MMO I play to it. So I at least have to give this a chance. Also I seem to have better memories of Wolfpack's competence than I do Aventurine's, but that just might be the nostalgia talking. Zarithas fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Jan 24, 2015 |
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Jan 24, 2015 03:41
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quote:I am delighted to (finally) reveal our ongoing collaboration with Raph Koster. For those of you not familiar with Raph, he is one of the most renowned and experienced MMO designers in the world. He was the lead designer on both Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies from inception through launch; two games which really "set the bar" for crafting systems in a virtual world. you gotta be loving kidding me Zarithas posted:If open world PvP is the core feature and yet death is essentially meaningless (other than relocating your avatar), and if killing someone only gives you the satisfaction of a kill and nothing else, all you're left with is TF2 on a very large map. Yeah no one wants a repeat of that failure of a flop that no one ever played amirite Flesh Forge fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Jan 24, 2015 |
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Jan 24, 2015 04:02
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Flesh Forge posted:you gotta be loving kidding me TF2 is fun and is one of the few games I still play these days, but it's a totally different genre. You can't sell an open world PvP sandbox and have players open the box to find TF2. I think gear (or some analogue) with both value and potential for loss/theft is one of the most fundamental concepts for "cutthroat" style games.
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Jan 24, 2015 04:27
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Zarithas posted:TF2 is fun and is one of the few games I still play these days, but it's a totally different genre. You can't sell an open world PvP sandbox and have players open the box to find TF2. I think gear (or some analogue) with both value and potential for loss/theft is one of the most fundamental concepts for "cutthroat" style games. Planetside doesn't seem super different from the model, and it was fun when I played it in beta at least.
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Jan 24, 2015 04:31
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Subjunctive posted:Planetside doesn't seem super different from the model, and it was fun when I played it in beta at least. Disclaimer: I never played it so I may be completely talking out of my rear end. One of the top complaints I read about it from some people I know was the pointlessness in PvP; not enough consequence to loss or death. Of course that style of game is going to be fun for a lot of people, but Shadowbane catered to people with a different mindset, and I think this game is as well. I personally lean towards the 100% player driven, high risk and reward style. It's completely subjective if you like it or not, but if you advertise "cutthroat" I think that's a prerequisite. PS didn't advertise itself in such a way, so I think it is fundamentally different from the model.
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Jan 24, 2015 04:36
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I don't know what "cutthroat" means in this context exactly, but I don't remember anyone in PS making sure you had a sporting chance when they came across you, unless they were doing so in order to taunt you.
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Jan 24, 2015 05:07
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I'm really excited to play to crush in Diablo 2 Worlds.
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Jan 24, 2015 05:11
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Planetside is dumb, its just an FPS with a grind. What makes PVP fun in an MMO setting is the blending of PVP and PVE aspects, something planetside dodges entirely.
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Jan 24, 2015 05:44
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Zarithas posted:... but Shadowbane catered to people with a different mindset, and I think this game is as well. And as it turns out, the number of people with this mindset is not very large in the grand scheme of things, so I hope you like cash shops and pay to win because that's the only e: I don't think there's another way actually
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Jan 24, 2015 05:57
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Biowarfare posted:btw good news i am joining the forum moderation team for game Oops, I meant to add: I was a mod on the original pre-beta Shadowbane forums, good luck (you're going to need it) 
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Jan 24, 2015 06:02
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Flesh Forge posted:And as it turns out, the number of people with this mindset is not very large in the grand scheme of things I'm still holding out hope that there'll eventually be a game by a good company with the polish of WoW and the mechanics of open world sandboxes like Eve and Shadowbane. This game very likely isn't it, but with good fortune it'll fill some gaps at least.
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Jan 24, 2015 07:21
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Is it really too much to ask for a game that's just all the good parts of Eve Online on top of an actual game?
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Jan 24, 2015 09:44
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The Shortest Path posted:Is it really too much to ask for a game that's just all the good parts of Eve Online on top of an actual game? Are there any good parts of Eve Online? I literally fell asleep playing that game.
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Jan 24, 2015 18:04
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The thing is, the 99% of the account base that actively hates and avoids pvp in EVE is absolutely required to make it possible. If you had no bears, the ~~ ELITE PVPERS ~~ wouldn't have ships to fly, player-owned stations to dock in, etc.
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Jan 24, 2015 18:25
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Flesh Forge posted:The thing is, the 99% of the account base that actively hates and avoids pvp in EVE is absolutely required to make it possible. If you had no bears, the ~~ ELITE PVPERS ~~ wouldn't have ships to fly, player-owned stations to dock in, etc. Also the first thing somebody does when they get a capital ship is log out and never log in again
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Jan 24, 2015 19:01
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Flesh Forge posted:The thing is, the 99% of the account base that actively hates and avoids pvp in EVE is absolutely required to make it possible. If you had no bears, the ~~ ELITE PVPERS ~~ wouldn't have ships to fly, player-owned stations to dock in, etc. To maintain a large population (even 1/5 of EVE's current size), yes you would need to appeal to PvP-haters as well. But it's not true that the economy will suffer if they're not there. Many players in games like these enjoy both PvP and crafting, and dedicate a lot of time to creating gear, siege weaponry, and vehicles and the resource harvesting necessary to do so. Since they see crafting as a specific means to an end (victory for themselves and their friends and clan), rather than just as a way to amass virtual Internet dubloons, they have plenty of incentive if not more so. Darkfall and Shadowbane both had pretty good economies and lots of crafters despite driving out just about all of the PvP avoiders.
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Jan 24, 2015 21:24
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I want to believe in this game but its gonna be bad At least it brought zarithas out of his posting slumber
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Jan 24, 2015 22:25
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I now have knowledge of this game and I am excited. It is most likely bad.
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Jan 24, 2015 22:32
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They just need to make open PvP punishing as gently caress. The bulk of the players should be interested in doing other stuff. Devs and players alike all remember that time they got that sick kill on a player in UO but nobody remembers most people at the time didn't make their main focus PKing. As long as the primary audience is PvP then they'll only attract the same lovely small audience that will die in a month A big section of the PvP crowd are ahitty whiny babies who want to kill players and steal their poo poo, but as soon as it happens to them they rage out.
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Jan 24, 2015 23:03
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Zarithas posted:To maintain a large population (even 1/5 of EVE's current size), yes you would need to appeal to PvP-haters as well. But it's not true that the economy will suffer if they're not there. Err what I mean ok I guess if you had no bears in EVE you could pvp in noob ships, sure? Eonwe posted:They just need to make open PvP punishing as gently caress. The bulk of the players should be interested in doing other stuff. Devs and players alike all remember that time they got that sick kill on a player in UO but nobody remembers most people at the time didn't make their main focus PKing. As long as the primary audience is PvP then they'll only attract the same lovely small audience that will die in a month Ahahaha see, you came right out and said what needs to be said: you want victims, you don't want pvp. This is why these PLAY 2 CRUSH games always fail, because the victim part sucks and you genuinely want it to suck. This paradigm has failed dozens of times now but just maybe it will work this time I dunno!! e: quote:They just need to make open PvP punishing as gently caress. I just can't get my head around how this dumb loving concept that has failed over and over and over, is the thing people pin their hopes on for making a popular, fun pvp game 
Flesh Forge fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Jan 25, 2015 |
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Jan 25, 2015 00:02
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It was fun renaming animals in UO, like, "bear" became "happy bear" and then you let it go.
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Jan 25, 2015 00:03
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Flesh Forge posted:Err what what? dude what are you even on im saying the people that people who want to PK people should have some genuine consequences, where did I say I wanted victims? I'm saying the people who are attacking people should have to go through the punishing stuff calm down weirdo
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Jan 25, 2015 00:23
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also im going to buy into this as soon as they let you do so I do this for all games and this one will be no different, bad or terrible or whatever it ends up being
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Jan 25, 2015 00:31
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