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Yeah, one of the few areas Civ 5 is inferior to BE is in ranged unit balance. In Civ 5, all units use their combat strength to defend against attacks, whether they're ranged or melee attacks. This means that if you lowered an archer unit's combat strength to the point where it was particularly weak in melee, it would also be very weak when shot at, which would just make the unit crap. In BE, units use their combat strength to defend against attacks, but if they have a ranged strength, they use that to defend against ranged attacks instead. This means that ranged units in BE are robust against ranged attacks, but if you can get a melee unit in there, they're hosed since they have very low combat strength. The result is that you actually have to defend your ranged units in BE, you can't just roll around with a vast swarm of ranged units. It'd be cool if the same mechanic could be modded into Civ 5 - it would make the unit types a lot more balanced.
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Jan 25, 2015 11:42
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I think Civ5 and CBE have the same mechanics there. A when a compbow shoots another compbow, they both use their ranged combat strength. So a S11 vs S11 attack would deal ~30hp to the defender. If a spearman attacks a compbow, the defending compbow has a melee strength of 7. And a S11 vs S7 attack would deal ~42hp to the defending compbow and ~20hp to the attacking spearman. The key difference between Civ5 and CBE is that they drastically dialed down the melee strength of ranged units. You could get away with pure ranged blobs in Civ5 because a tile occupied by a melee unit is a tile that can't attack without dealing damage to itself. Blockers aren't particularly useful. In CBE, ranged units have so little melee combat strength that they can almost get 1-shot if caught off guard by a equivalent tier melee unit. So you need blockers to hold off your opponent's melee units. They also drastically dialed down the strength and hp of defending cities, meaning you no longer need a ranged blob to take a city.
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Jan 25, 2015 11:56
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Huh. Then I guess fixing Civ 5's combat mechanics really is as simple as lowering the combat strength of ranged and siege units. Interesting. (and the one thing I thought BE did better than Civ 5 was actually mostly there all along)
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Jan 25, 2015 12:03
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Well they did drastically gently caress one thing up, because naval units are purely ranged, and they have gently caress-all for melee combat strength, and are easily gobbled up by passing aliens (that are purely melee). And even if there existed a melee naval unit, they wouldn't act as blockers because naval units have so much movement that they can easily pop in and out of a blocker's zone of control.
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Jan 25, 2015 12:07
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:.. while Civ5 AI merely goes between hatting your guts and tolerating your existence). Accurate portrayal of international relations
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Jan 25, 2015 12:36
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Phobophilia posted:Well they did drastically gently caress one thing up, because naval units are purely ranged, and they have gently caress-all for melee combat strength, and are easily gobbled up by passing aliens (that are purely melee). And even if there existed a melee naval unit, they wouldn't act as blockers because naval units have so much movement that they can easily pop in and out of a blocker's zone of control. Eh, it's not so bad. I don't think sea dragons can one-shot a ship (maybe the lowest-level ones?) and krakens can't leave the ocean, so you can avoid those easily enough. The big gently caress-up is the Observatory quest where you get a choice between 3 city strength or +2 movement on all naval units, which leads to the problem of super-fast sea units you mentioned.
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Jan 25, 2015 13:06
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Do we know what the actual, math effect of evangelism is?
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Jan 25, 2015 16:41
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Gort posted:Yeah, one of the few areas Civ 5 is inferior to BE is in ranged unit balance.
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Jan 25, 2015 18:31
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exmachina posted:This is correct. It was also said that introducing this meant rewriting a lot of the combat code, and that kind of manpower is not going to be allocated to a game that is bought and paid for already. Wait, how is the combat code different? Ranged units in Civ V do indeed defend against ranged attacks with ranged strength.
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Jan 25, 2015 23:16
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Yeah, I thought it was how exmachina was saying it originally, but I found this description of Civ's combat mechanics from 2011 which says Civ 5 ranged units defend against ranged attacks with their ranged strength.quote:Land based ranged vs ranged combat follows a modified set of rules for determining damage. The defender uses its ranged strength instead of normal strength, regular combat promotions like drill or barrage do not help (although they are incorrectly listed in the combat information table), and the defender gains a 1.25x strength multiplier which is applied after all other modifiers are applied. For example, an archer with the cover promotion (+25% strength vs ranged attacks) in rough terrain (+25%) defending against another archer will be fighting at a ratio of 1.875:1, a result of the total 1.50x combat strength from modifiers gaining the 1.25x ranged defense multiplier. The effective result of this is it's generally inefficient to attack ranged units with ranged attacks, including city bombardment, while melee units should tear through through a ranged defender's lower base strength easily. Looks like naval units might be the exception, though, which might explain why boats were getting one shotted in BE pre-patch: quote:Although naval units engage in ranged attacks, they do not follow the same ranged vs ranged rules: they use their normal combat strength when defending. For naval vs naval combat there is a 0.4x defense strength multiplier penalty, applied after all modifiers. Gaining targeting 3 promotion (+60% strength vs naval units) provides only an additional 24% defense (60% * 0.4). The effective result of this attacking naval units with other naval units results in significantly more damage than an equivalent strength ranged unit. Gort fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Jan 25, 2015 |
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Jan 25, 2015 23:31
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Welp, I've done it. I've re-virginated myself. A nice added touch to go out literally in a blaze of glory as my XCOM got gangraped by a fleet of Destroyers.
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Jan 26, 2015 02:46
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Fryhtaning posted:Welp, I've done it. I've re-virginated myself. what the gently caress is wrong with you
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Jan 26, 2015 05:37
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Fryhtaning posted:Welp, I've done it. I've re-virginated myself. How the fu- *checks your Steam account* 7,105 Hours played 
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Jan 26, 2015 06:05
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Man, here I was feeling guilty about 537 hours.
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Jan 26, 2015 06:08
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Only 69 more days till he's played for a literal full year of his life. Which is ironic cause that's something he'll never experience in his life. (too mean?)
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Jan 26, 2015 06:08
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Let's be honest here, you spend at least 90 days a year asleep, and more than likely 110-120 if you get 8 hours.
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Jan 26, 2015 06:21
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Bet* the dude leaves his computer running Civ full-time and alt-tabs into other poo poo. *hope
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Jan 26, 2015 10:12
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I'd join in on the incredulity but my 2081 hours in Civ 4 tells me otherwise.
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Jan 26, 2015 10:23
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How did you get the broken achievements?
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Jan 26, 2015 11:37
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Fryhtaning posted:Welp, I've done it. I've re-virginated myself. I refuse to believe you de-virginated yourself in the first place. Are you sure you didn't just double-virginate yourself?
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Jan 26, 2015 12:38
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Eikre posted:Bet* the dude leaves his computer running Civ full-time and alt-tabs into other poo poo. Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Still, 2000 hours of actual time would probably be a fair estimate. Also a lot of playing a few turns in between work on my other monitor. KKKlean Energy posted:I refuse to believe you de-virginated yourself in the first place. Are you sure you didn't just double-virginate yourself? My wife wrote a text-based game when she was in high school. She gets me. Baron Porkface posted:How did you get the broken achievements? Which ones are broken?
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Jan 26, 2015 16:01
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Offhand, the one to get your religion into every enemy capital never triggers for me. And that's not getting into "presumably doable, but game mechanic changes make it a major PITA" like that Genghis scenario on higher difficulties. Though I suppose if you got that one around the time of its release (when the mechanics worked with the scenario) it wouldn't be an issue.
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Jan 26, 2015 17:31
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I'm proudest of the Last Crusade achievement.
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Jan 26, 2015 17:33
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Fryhtaning posted:Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Still, 2000 hours of actual time would probably be a fair estimate. Also a lot of playing a few turns in between work on my other monitor. I have 1500 hours- probably 1100 of which is actual gametime, 100 of which was my girlfriend before she got her own steam account, 100 modding/editting maps/testing modpacks, and 200 idling. Even most of my play time I'm playing windowed and browsing while turns are processing- but I've been leaving it on a lot more lately while I cook/clean/other stuff. I don't know if this is nerdy or ingenious but I play Civ while I work out- particularly my 'huge' marathon games. I do my turns on my cool downs between sets. And then I let the game process my turn while I do reps. Swole Civ Bro. Edit: Also, I wanna say to anyone using my mod pack, the Inuit are my favourite of the new Civs by far. It's absolutely great to finally have a civ fit the niche of exploiting Tundra and Ice to hell. PoizenJam fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Jan 26, 2015 |
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Jan 26, 2015 18:23
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Is your computer in the gym or something?
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Jan 26, 2015 18:34
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No, only during my nightime calisthenics workouts. I do those in my living room, where my desktop is. I live alone at the moment, it's wonderful.
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Jan 26, 2015 18:35
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Trust me, I'm not so addicted I bring my laptop to the gym for cardio and lifting.
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Jan 26, 2015 18:38
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Poizen Jam posted:No, only during my nightime calisthenics workouts. I do those in my living room, where my desktop is. I live alone at the moment, it's wonderful. I'm more amazed that you can actually sit down between, what I assume to be, sets of an interval workout. My vision starts tunneling if I do that. Vil posted:Offhand, the one to get your religion into every enemy capital never triggers for me. I forget what it was about the religion in the enemy capital one, but I do recall having to look up how to actually make it activate. I got the Mongol scenario whenever it came out (can never remember if it was stock or DLC) so I probably did that one early on. I see there're videos as recently as a year ago for doing a Deity playthrough on that one, so surely it's still possible.
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Jan 26, 2015 19:35
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Fryhtaning posted:I'm more amazed that you can actually sit down between, what I assume to be, sets of an interval workout. My vision starts tunneling if I do that. I stand. My desk is a music production/DJing station so it's pretty high.
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Jan 26, 2015 19:37
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I took a turn on my wedding day I might take a turn on my deathbed just for old time's sake
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Jan 26, 2015 19:46
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KKKlean Energy posted:I took a turn on my wedding day I know if I'm in the hospital, it's the perfect time for a Civ binge.
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Jan 27, 2015 02:27
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Poizen Jam posted:Civ GoonPack 2: Baba Yetu Boogaloo Loving that modpack, its very handy, sure saves me downloading it all seperately, which was a complete ballache. Are you still considering mods to add to it? This is a list of the mods I'm still using alongside it, without issues: Artificial Unintelligence Lite: Some small tweaks to the AI, allows them to actually focus fire units, get out of large budget deficits better, etc. Theres a more extensive non-lite version too, but it is .dll based and therefore unusable. City Limits: Just shows a red area when you have a settler selected that shows the cities maximum usable area at a glance before you build it. Its hardly essential, I just suck at figuring out where the diagonals will lie otherwise. Quick Turns: Almost essential to me, speeds up the game somewhat by not showing you every single god drat AI units movement that you have vision on. Only shows hostile military units moves. Really Advanced Setup: Another essential, allows you to fine tune your game setup better than the vanilla game setup screens allow. Resource - Granary Includes Bison: Bison doesn't get used by any building in vanilla, this adds a tile yield bonus to the Granary for Bison. Resource - Mint Include Copper: Similar to the Bison one, only this time with copper. Buffs it a bit to be more on the level of the other luxuries. Show Move-To: A really minor mod that shows you where the unit you have selected is moving to if you've dragged it out on a multi-turn move previously. I find it really useful for those "wtf is that worker doing" moments, when you temporarily forget that the worker is indeed making a 20 tile trek with good reason and re-assign him only to discover your error some turns later when you wonder why that luxury you were going to be bringing online hasn't come up yet, and then discover the worker digging out a farm or something instead... Tindahbawx fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Jan 27, 2015 |
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Jan 27, 2015 14:51
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Fryhtaning posted:Which ones are broken? “Connoisseur”. It involves rating a mod, but when the game was patched to use the Steam Workshop, that became impossible.
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Jan 27, 2015 15:30
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Tindahbawx posted:City Limits: Just shows a red area when you have a settler selected that shows the cities maximum usable area at a glance before you build it. Its hardly essential, I just suck at figuring out where the diagonals will lie otherwise. EUI does this one, though admittedly it only shows the data when you hover a tile where a city is actually valid (i.e. not water or mountain, not within 3 tiles of another city etc)  But I think that's better because as far as I can tell from the workshop page, City Limits only shows you the data for the settler's current location.
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Jan 27, 2015 16:27
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Platystemon posted:“Connoisseur”. It involves rating a mod, but when the game was patched to use the Steam Workshop, that became impossible. Did that one Feb 22, 2011, so just a few months after release or so? Pretty lovely if they never fixed that, in any case.
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Jan 27, 2015 16:31
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KKKlean Energy posted:EUI does this one, though admittedly it only shows the data when you hover a tile where a city is actually valid (i.e. not water or mountain, not within 3 tiles of another city etc) I'll just dump City Limits then. I think I installed both EUI and City Limits at the same time originally, and simply never realized that EUI had its own method for this. Tindahbawx fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Jan 27, 2015 |
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Jan 27, 2015 17:28
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Tindahbawx posted:Loving that modpack, its very handy, sure saves me downloading it all seperately, which was a complete ballache. Are you still considering mods to add to it? Can you link quick turns, I can't find it in the workshop
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Jan 27, 2015 18:32
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Jon Shafer of Civ V fame (or notoriety if you like game balance  ) has posted another video about his new game At The Gateshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr0aGi2ZI1A It's a two hour beast of a video so this is probably the most in-depth look so far. I'm posting it here because (a) Jon Shafer (b) relevance and (c) gently caress you I'll do what I want
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Jan 27, 2015 18:35
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Tindahbawx posted:Loving that modpack, its very handy, sure saves me downloading it all seperately, which was a complete ballache. Are you still considering mods to add to it? DLL Based mods I cannot implement, as JDH Active AI is a mod I consider essential to the pack and you can only implement one DLL per mod pack. I wanted to implement Smart AI (lets AI move and attack on same turn with ranged units, less embarkation, better positioning) as well as Civ IV diplo mod but it's just not possible. If there are AI mods out there that rely on Lua/XML edits rather than DLL, and people are fond of them, it's doable. So I'll give the lite version a try. I have some concerns about the next two in your list. I wanted to implement Quick Turns but I have no idea how it interacts in multiplayer. I'd need additional play testing to confirm it doesn't cause issues, and then I'll implement it. Unfortunately I'm too busy playtesting and bug fixing the current mod pack to do so- maybe after all the current bugs get sorted out? Really Advanced Setup is an alright mod as well, but doesn't it disable the ability to play scenarios? And is it compatible with multiplayer? If you want to playtest it (If it works with the JDH mod manager, it should work in fake-DLC), go ahead and let me know and I'll implement it. Show Move-To I'll give a try and implement if it's compatible. As for gameplay changes like resources and social policy rebalancing- I'm a little more hesitant to implement changes like this. If there are any widely agreed upon re-balancing or resource mods I'm open to doing so, but as I said I want this to be palatable to the single-player and multi-player fans. But I'd like a general consensus on these before implementing- it's already going to be a bitch and a half to balance out Events and Decisions (Some Civs don't have events or decisions by default; others have arguably broken ones like the guy who mentioned Korea's +2 science decision) once I get to a fully stable version. I've added a few more new Civs and brought the total additional Civs to nearly 100 (Up from the original's 43- for a total of 140+ Civs), just a couple XML errors to fix now and I'll playtest a couple rounds. I'll declare it stable and upload if I'm able to get through at least 2 rounds with less than 2 crashes related to the mods (not counting crash on exit- no idea if that's even fixable). Don't want to be releasing a version every other day is all. PoizenJam fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Jan 27, 2015 |
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Jan 27, 2015 18:42
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KKKlean Energy posted:Jon Shafer of Civ V fame (or notoriety if you like game balance Don't have time to watch it now, but I'm probably getting At The Gates. Civilization under Jon Shafer: -Got rid of stacks of doom -Went from squares to hexes -Allowed cities to defend themselves -Got rid science, culture, gold slider -Gave civs actual differences so they were each unique to play. Civ 4's "This unit has 1 more attack point", or "This leader is charismatic so he gets +1 gold" were bullshit. These were all long overdue. Civ 6 is going to be a masterpiece built upon his Civ 5 foundation. The Human Crouton fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Jan 27, 2015 |
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Jan 27, 2015 19:37
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