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Helical Nightmares posted:I've tried to explain to so I'll try again. The difference is in the scope of the conflict, the Faith vs Traditional Magic vs Technology which is NOT present in Awakening unless I've missed something (The Seers of the Throne are closer to Hermetics than Technocrats; Division Six is a nod to Technocrats in H:tV, which is not in Mage), and that the Nephandi are presented initially as a loose organization of bogeymen in the 2nd Edition Mage core book but later expanded to an existential threat of a very well organized group of Nihilist/Satanists in Book of Madness (the Upper Umbra threat I mentioned). You haven't provided a detailed counterexample of your points. The Traditional Magic/Old Ways vs Technology/New Ways is the explicit foundation of the tension between the Free Council and the Diamond Orders.
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Jan 27, 2015 06:38
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Mors Rattus posted:Well, I think one of his bigger points, which you probably don't agree with, is that the Faith/Magic/Tech conflict wasn't really important because it was ultimately arguing over what color paint should be used rather than any substantive change. Yeah I get that some players didn't feel that conflict added anything. For our group it adding another significant layer of context. It is a matter of taste. You pointed out the difference where he did not articulate his argument. As for the The Acamoth, nWoD does have really cool idea. I don't know which book it is (I think it is a city/region sourcebook I think. Not Boston maybe?) where there is this degenerate cannibal cult that worships a being that literally is a different timeline of the world. That is cool as poo poo and an original existential threat. Who thinks of that?
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Jan 27, 2015 06:39
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tatankatonk posted:The Traditional Magic/Old Ways vs Technology/New Ways is the explicit foundation of the tension between the Free Council and the Diamond Orders. Can you point me to this specifically?
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Jan 27, 2015 06:41
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The Scelesti are very much an in-setting existential threat, because they get their powers from the Abyss, which is a plane of Unreality that hates the ordered universe and wants to merge with every other reality and destroy it forever, so...?
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Jan 27, 2015 06:41
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Ascension's scope was actually smaller than Awakening's scope, because you didn't fight over what was actually true or real. Even the big goofy Warhammer 40k dimensional starship bullshit was basically a question of either seizing or defending territory. Compare that to the shenanigans that archmages get up to and it's just petty. Awakening actually has a magic vs. science vs. faith conflict because, in Awakening, those are all different things. Someone who relies on technology is different from someone who relies on magic, and both are different from someone who values both.
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Jan 27, 2015 06:42
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Helical Nightmares posted:Can you point me to this specifically? Point out what? The Diamond Orders claim that they are spiritually descended from the earliest leaders of the mythical Atlantian tradition, and believe in organizing themselves in a strict hierarchy that's defined by their loyalty to and respect for the ways and people who came before them. The Free Council is a recently founded group of mages who think that they can organize themselves in a democratic, forward-thinking, self-consciously revolutionary way, and believe that the fusion of magic and technology is a key step in achieving global Awakening.
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Jan 27, 2015 06:45
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Helical Nightmares posted:Can you point me to this specifically? It's, like, a basic point in the corebook. The Free Council's main unifying trait is their belief that the Fallen World still contains Supernal truths expressed through Sleeper activity, or in other words that new ways like technomagic or anarchist communes or whatever have the potential to lead the Awakened to the truth. This is their main point of contention with the Diamond. tatankatonk posted:The Scelesti are very much an in-setting existential threat, because they get their powers from the Abyss, which is a plane of Unreality that hates the ordered universe and wants to merge with every other reality and destroy it forever, so...? They're not an imminent existential threat, but Awakening isn't apocalyptic so there's no reason for them to be.
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Jan 27, 2015 06:45
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Effectronica posted:
Yeah. They're not, like, the main villains of the setting, but it's very clear that their endgame involves destroying all reality,
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Jan 27, 2015 06:47
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Arguably the designs of even the most benevolent Archmaster involve the destruction of reality as we know it as it is replaced by something of their own design. How drastic those changes are can vary quite a bit, but Imperium still demands their vision be made manifest in such a fashion that the previous reality never existed in the first place.
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Jan 27, 2015 06:50
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tatankatonk posted:Yeah. They're not, like, the main villains of the setting, but it's very clear that their endgame involves destroying all reality, More accurately, it can involve destroying all of reality, or merely altering reality as we know it so catastrophically that existence as humanity knows it would cease, ushering in a nightmare universe of endless impossibilities defined by its lack of definition. Edit: and yeah, as Reene points out, even the most benevolent archmaster's designs for reality demand that reality as all others see it be destroyed and rebuilt according to their whim, which is loving horrifying to anybody that isn't already wearing the ol' robe and wizard hat.
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Jan 27, 2015 06:52
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Awakening is actually all about God(s) being a giant dick(s), and deciding to gently caress that and blow up the Heavens to put everyone on the throne. Join the Silver Ladder.
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Jan 27, 2015 06:53
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I'm sure wizards are nice and wouldn't do anything too weird to literally all of reality
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Jan 27, 2015 06:55
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Awakening is actually about your character fixating on minor civic reforms that accomplish nearly nothing and incur the wrath of the wizard elders, join the Free Council
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Jan 27, 2015 06:55
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No but seriously the Silver Ladder book is amazing and they are one of my favourite thing about nMage. The Mysterium and Crazy Assassins books were also really good. The Arrow and Free Council books were just kinda mediocre though.
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Jan 27, 2015 07:01
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Swagger Dagger posted:I'm sure wizards are nice and wouldn't do anything too weird to literally all of reality 
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Jan 27, 2015 07:01
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Swagger Dagger posted:I'm sure wizards are nice and wouldn't do anything too weird to literally all of reality 
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Jan 27, 2015 07:12
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I didn't used to feel this way but it really is true that the goals of the Diamond, Seers, Libertines, etc. are all totally different and lead to very, very different worlds but the goals of the Technocrats and Traditions do not. Like, if the Technocrats win nothing really changes, if the Traditions win things don't really change except you have efreets instead of thermostats or whatever. But if the Exarchs win they can enslave the human soul forever, not only stamping out magic and mages, but also enslaving all ordinary humans to greed and fear for the rest of time. On the other hand, a Pentacle victory would see reality melted down into a chaotic paradise where all humans are as gods and have their every whim and wish fulfilled by the limitless power that belongs to everyone.
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Jan 27, 2015 07:27
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Helical Nightmares posted:Yeah I get that some players didn't feel that conflict added anything. For our group it adding another significant layer of context. It is a matter of taste. Look, it's either a matter of taste or it isn't. If it is, then you can say "I like oMage" and I can say "I do not like oMage" and that's the end of our conversation. If we're asserting facts and demanding citations, though, we can't retreat into solipsism. The advertised conflict in oMage is between the Technocracy and the Traditions. One of the key parts of it, emphasised regularly, is that the Traditions lost. The Ascension War is over, the 'bad guys' won. oMage PCs aren't playing as Civil War soldiers, they're playing as the surly postbellum guys who invented 'lost cause' mythology about themselves. The best thing you could say about a cabal of oMage PCs is that they're fighting for a kind of eclectic humanism over cynicism and social control, due to the flawed Technocratic ideology that marries totalitarianism with scientific aesthetics. But this has nothing to do with them being Tradition mages! It's hammered on in oMage books that the Traditions are a load of shitheads who would - and have, in the past - impose their paradigms by force. Theirs is an alliance of convenience, and there's nothing in their ideologies that stops them from grabbing ultimate power if they think they've got a shot. Would they be as bad as the Technocracy? Maybe, maybe not. But two guys fighting to sit in the same chair for the same reason doesn't give much reason to choose either one apart from "this is where I was born/Awakened". The Faith/Tradition/Technology conflict, separate from the base political fighting and the humanism vs. totalitarianism fight, does not exist in oMage. It is not real. One of the perks of going up in Gnosis is the ability to stop using elements of your paradigm in your magic, to ignore the thing that supposedly made you unique in the first place. Anyone who has been in the Verbena or the Virtual Adepts or the Progenitors long enough to matter is no longer a Verbena or a Virtual Adept or a Progenitor. Nothing's stopping them from saying "oh, I've written a computer program that analyzes electromagnetic radiation modulated by brain waves that occur in the presence of hostility, and that's different from your cauldron that reflects the face of your enemy," but they all know on a fundamental level, on a game-mechanical level that that isn't true, that it's all bullshit.
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Jan 27, 2015 07:29
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Again, it's totally fine to like oMage and play it with your friends. Friends can have fun with basically anything and life is a rich, rich tapestry. I'm assuming that's not what this conversation is about.
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Jan 27, 2015 07:33
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Dammit Who? posted:Friends can have fun with basically anything and life is a rich, rich tapestry. And in the end, isn't that what Ascension is all about? Glad you could reach a consensus. 
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Jan 27, 2015 07:38
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Dammit Who? posted:Nothing's stopping them from saying "oh, I've written a computer program that analyzes electromagnetic radiation modulated by brain waves that occur in the presence of hostility, and that's different from your cauldron that reflects the face of your enemy," but they all know on a fundamental level, on a game-mechanical level that that isn't true, that it's all bullshit. Hands down the easiest illustration of this is the fact that there are "decent Technocrats" who reject the totalitarianism of the T.U., and "bad Traditionalists" who are totalitarian Hermetics or whatever. But a "decent Technocrat" and a "decent Hermetic" probably want things that aren't all that different - and in fact as the line went on this sort of thing became more and more commonplace for players and in source material - cooperation across party lines. But in Awakening, that can't happen. "Decent" Seers (an impossibility?) and "Decent Diamonds" still want things and are driven by goals that are totally, fundamentally, at odds. An Earth ruled by distant, beneficent Exarchs is totally different from the chaos paradise of unlimited power for everyone with a human soul. I mean look at the difference in attitude towards something like the Abyss. Humanitarian Seers and humanitarian Diamonds have utterly opposite perspectives on what it is, what it means, and what should be done about it.
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Jan 27, 2015 08:02
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Yay, 40+ posts, I wonder what just got released? Nope, just a bunch of loving spregs arguing about Mage again.
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Jan 27, 2015 08:46
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Soonmot posted:Yay, 40+ posts, I wonder what just got released? For what hath man of all his labour, and of the vexation of his heart, wherein he hath laboured under the sun? For all his days are sorrows, and his travail grief; yea, his heart taketh not rest in the night. This is also vanity.
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Jan 27, 2015 08:55
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Ascension for my players ultimately comes down to the completion and perfection of a cycle (Telos / the Entelechy / Global Ascension), taking them on a journey of all sides (via past lives / alternate realities / etc) to strip away the dogma of what they were told by their masters / assumed by everyone else, and embodied in their long struggle against Voormas (the "great beast of Chaos" from the Ahl-I-Batin's Doctrine of Unity) where failure is a real possibility because otherwise it's just Free Unicorn Rides Forever I mean, that's what I've been trying to get across to them anyway who knows what they've picked up
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Jan 27, 2015 08:56
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Soonmot posted:Yay, 40+ posts, I wonder what just got released? in this, the world of darkness thread, of all places
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Jan 27, 2015 09:31
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Soonmot posted:Yay, 40+ posts, I wonder what just got released? Yes, how dare they talk about the World of Darkness in the World of Darkness thread? e: beaten paradoxGentleman fucked around with this message at 10:25 on Jan 27, 2015 |
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Jan 27, 2015 09:53
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Please only engage with games as products rather than as concepts. Please, please respect the brand. Thanks and G-d bless.
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Jan 27, 2015 10:02
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Mexcillent posted:No the big gotcha is that there's no system for an ascension war, you're not fighting for anything but killing people who disagree with you. That's not entirely true; for example, if you're an Etherite or a Void Engineer or a Virtual Adept or any other kind of technomancer, you're mainly killing people who agree with you.
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Jan 27, 2015 10:40
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Sorry. Mage chat is just the worst and the same people arguing in circles about the same things every time. I guess we were due, it's been about a month since the last time.
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Jan 27, 2015 10:42
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Sorry other people like different games than you do! Magechat is always great, I enjoy lurking it can't wait for Mage2
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Jan 27, 2015 11:08
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In other news, the NWOD Dark Eras Kickstarter should be starting later this week.
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Jan 27, 2015 12:00
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There seems to have been a lot less opendev type bits recently so its harder to talk about upcoming books
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Jan 27, 2015 12:15
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Little_wh0re posted:There seems to have been a lot less opendev type bits recently so its harder to talk about upcoming books That's true, it's just a recurring pattern that I've noticed and have brought up by some other posters/lurkers that I talk to outside the forums. You don't see this constant back and forth going on about what it means to be human spawning a bunch of Promethean chat, which has a similar breadth of potential to mage chat. I probably only notice because Mage is my least favorite of the WoD games. Even the dev diaries only seem to get a post or two before the thread slows down again. This should be the first of the OPP kickstarters I can actually support, so I'm looking forward to it!
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Jan 27, 2015 12:39
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Little_wh0re posted:There seems to have been a lot less opendev type bits recently so its harder to talk about upcoming books On the Werewolf front, I've covered pretty much everything regarding the changes and am currently redlining three Apocalypse books at once because I suck at scheduling ("wow, December's empty, I can get a lot done then"). I'll put up something shiny when I get a layout proof. I know Mage has been hit with some serious real life poo poo, so that probably explains the lack of info. Promethean is post-redlines and going through playtesting; I'm sure open dev will kick in more when Matt knows what (if anything) needs to change.
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Jan 27, 2015 12:41
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:"Decent" Seers (an impossibility?) You can definitely have decent seers, at least at the lower ranks, since at that point they're just the poor bastards who awakened near the seers as opposed to the pentacle. Of course, it gets trickier the higher up the echelons you get because if you've risen up the ranks of the seers instead of getting killed or defecting, you've basically had to do a lot of horrible things.
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Jan 27, 2015 13:16
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Helical Nightmares posted:
It was Boston Unveiled, actually. You're thinking of one the Acamoths' collective parents, the Anunnaki, more specifically the Prince of 100,000 Leaves. Like the Prince, Anunnaki are semi-sentient alternate universes that are impossible under the traditional interactions of the 10 Arcana. They are not fans of this, and the ultimate goal of Abyssal intrusions is for their parent Anunnaki to replace the world we know. In other news, I think Scelesti are almost invariably better villains than Nephandi whenever they show up, both because a Scelestus is usually an actual person (the nicest antagonist from Night Horrors: The Unbidden is actually a Scelestus, in fact; he became one because he never realized the buffing he figured out to apply to his spells is actually Abyssal contamination) and because the existential threats they work for are a hell of a lot cooler. Not to mention vaguely sane-sounding to work for: "Hey bro, the cosmos is lovely-why don't we replace it? Yeah, don't mind the non-Elucidian geometry, the tentacles, and and the flowers with blood instead of nectar. Talk to the people for a bit, you'll find those are minor things."
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Jan 27, 2015 14:49
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I think describing the setting of Ascension as "your beliefs don't actually matter" is extrapolating setting truths from bad mechanics.
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Jan 27, 2015 15:32
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DigitalRaven posted:On the Werewolf front, I've covered pretty much everything regarding the changes and am currently redlining three Apocalypse books at once because I suck at scheduling ("wow, December's empty, I can get a lot done then"). I'll put up something shiny when I get a layout proof. I just read the newsletter, is Beast really on track for this Spring? I didn't think that was coming out until next year for some reason.
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Jan 27, 2015 15:39
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Soonmot posted:I just read the newsletter, is Beast really on track for this Spring? I didn't think that was coming out until next year for some reason. Yeah that seems awfully fast, but I guess they've been working on it for longer than we've known about it?
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Jan 27, 2015 15:45
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So little has been released about it that I can't even guess, but from that gencon panel it seemed like it was still in the planning stages.
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Jan 27, 2015 15:54
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