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logosanatic posted:1) I admit india and indonesia had colonialism happen to them. But the muslims are killing their country men. And why is colonialism an excuse for that? But its not happening in china or brazil where colonialism also happened? A tried-and-true strategy of European colonial powers w/r/t maintaining order in their colonies was called Divide and Rule, and it was pretty simple: find and exploit any and all ethnic/religious/cultural differences between your various subject populations. Get them to spend so much time hating each other that they forget about being basically slaves to the colonial government. British Mandate Palestine was no different, and it hasn't really been very long since the end of colonial rule.
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Jan 27, 2015 23:12
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logosanatic posted:1) I admit india and indonesia had colonialism happen to them. But the muslims are killing their country men. And why is colonialism an excuse for that? But its not happening in china or brazil where colonialism also happened?  For China: get a list of all ethnic groups living in China. Cross the Han from that list. You now have a list of all ethnics groups that are oppressed in China. For Brazil: lots of lovely little stories like this one. Loggers, poachers, gold washers, etc., all of them kill natives every single day.
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Jan 27, 2015 23:28
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DarkCrawler posted:1) Maybe you need to take a look at the borders and history of India and Indonesia to see how all those disparate people were forced inside same borders and how there is really not much unified national identity and hundreds of different ethnic groups, political beliefs and languages, and how most of the conflict in those nations can be tracked down to the tensions arising from those. 1) so basically national borders werent allowed to develop naturally(thru war and killing basically) but were artificially drawn. So now we have drawn out conflict rather than the burst of violence that would have settled borders normally? Thats the legacy of colonialism. I had it in my head when people blame colonialism it was the mistreatment of the people that caused the problems 2) is brazil and china being dictatorships a consequence of colonialism? 3) you should see some of the numbers floating around out there. Surely theres a % radicals ready to kill. Someone probably can get an estimate. How? Statistics or some such math vodoo. Do we have a better number than 7%? If not 7 then what %? As to how you figure it out. How do they figure out the % of pedophiles. Those people arent raising their hand Basically when I hear people say 7% or 1% I want to be able to shut them down like...nope its just .0005% and yes I have heard older people in my family spout off stats much worse than 7
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Jan 27, 2015 23:38
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There's a civil war going on now in Ukraine (or a Russian invasion or freedom fighting or whatever I don't want to go into semantics) and hopefully nobody is dumb enough to pretend its really about how the Orthodox fell into self destructive degeneracy since the schism. People actually kill each other all the time for various reasons, why is the Indonesia ethnic/religious conflict drastically different from Sri Lankan ethnic/religious conflict? Why are Buddhists so violent jeez?
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Jan 27, 2015 23:38
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SyHopeful posted:A tried-and-true strategy of European colonial powers w/r/t maintaining order in their colonies was called Divide and Rule, and it was pretty simple: find and exploit any and all ethnic/religious/cultural differences between your various subject populations. Get them to spend so much time hating each other that they forget about being basically slaves to the colonial government. British Mandate Palestine was no different, and it hasn't really been very long since the end of colonial rule. Interesting and good point. So it would be fair to say the tribes of africa and middle east were riled up into hating each other and havent had time to settle back down. Once family feuds with killing happens then revenge killings keep the blood flowing.
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Jan 27, 2015 23:40
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Dude, use your sense if they really was 100 million "radical muslims" I think the world would look very different. How people actually committed to al-qaeda style global jihad are in the US and Europe? If theres more than 5,000 I'd be absolutely shocked. The percentages you see tossed about come from surveys about attitudes to violence etc. What percentage of American Christians would agree with the statement "The Bible clearly condemns homosexuals to death. The state should outlaw sodomy and impose a death sentence". I might be as high a 10%, but that does not mean there a few million planning to kill a gay person.
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Jan 27, 2015 23:41
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Soviet Space Dog posted:There's a civil war going on now in Ukraine (or a Russian invasion or freedom fighting or whatever I don't want to go into semantics) and hopefully nobody is dumb enough to pretend its really about how the Orthodox fell into self destructive degeneracy since the schism. People actually kill each other all the time for various reasons, why is the Indonesia ethnic/religious conflict drastically different from Sri Lankan ethnic/religious conflict? Why are Buddhists so violent jeez? Especially since the 2 bloodiest periods in modern Indonesian history have little, if any, connection to Islam(the genocide of the Chinese/communists and the occupation of and arguable genocide in East Timor.)
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Jan 27, 2015 23:48
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Soviet Space Dog posted:There's a civil war going on now in Ukraine (or a Russian invasion or freedom fighting or whatever I don't want to go into semantics) and hopefully nobody is dumb enough to pretend its really about how the Orthodox fell into self destructive degeneracy since the schism. People actually kill each other all the time for various reasons, why is the Indonesia ethnic/religious conflict drastically different from Sri Lankan ethnic/religious conflict? Why are Buddhists so violent jeez? Im not sure Im catching all the nuances. But for me personally. The reason the muslim violence is different to me, not speaking for anyone else. Is that it seems like theres muslim violence all over the world. Compared to one location for lets say ukraine And the ukrainians arent traveling to france to kill cartoonists or dancing in the streets for 9/11 or taking down malaysian planes. Basically muslims are popping up everywhere killing people for a laundry list of reasons. Like I can understand them hating america because they meddled in middle east affairs or whatever. I can understand if muslims fight other muslims or israelis because borders were drawn wrong and now their living in the wrong part of town. But muslims are traveling to other countries to kill people because they are doing things wrong according to the koran(like in vietnam they have muslim bombings of red light dustricts because prostitution is bad) But they seem to be doing things for brand new not colonialism reasons and thats disturbing. And then I hear people around me talking anger about muslims and it affects my mood and Its hard to argue with what your seeing around the world. Then you start thinking there is a problem with the muslim culture breeding these violent acts logosanatic fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Jan 27, 2015 |
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Jan 27, 2015 23:52
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logosanatic posted:And the ukrainians arent [...] taking down malaysian planes.
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Jan 27, 2015 23:58
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logosanatic posted:Im not sure Im catching all the nuances. But for me personally. The reason the muslim violence is different to me, not speaking for anyone else. Jeez man there isn't anything unique or special about Islam that leads to violent outbreaks, global jihad, antisemitism and the like. American Christians also firebombed Abortion clinics because they think it's not moral. Extremist Animal Rights supporters also set fire to and destroyed animal testing labs because they think it's not moral. Islam is not some unique trigger state for violence, if you shout 'For the Prophet of Islam' in the middle of a Muslim crowd they aren't going to pull out AKs and go all Manchurian Candidate on every non-Muslim. I feel you are coming from a side of strong bias towards this, which makes it hard for me to believe you are posting in good faith. So let me tell you this: What you are seeing is not a preemptive, unprovoked movement that rose from a pile of dirt unassisted. It's predicated on decades of history that have created an environment in which these destructive ideologies can thrive and spread. Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Jan 28, 2015 |
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Jan 28, 2015 00:04
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logosanatic posted:But muslims are traveling to other countries to kill people because they are doing things wrong according to the koran(like in vietnam they have muslim bombings of red light dustricts because prostitution is bad) I'm sorry to say but lots of people do targeted killing. Would it be worth our time to list examples of politically or religiously motivated targeted violence carried out by non-Muslims? People keep giving you one or two but maybe if we put together like 30 you'd get the point. But maybe it wouldn't be worth the effort either and you'd deflect.
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Jan 28, 2015 00:12
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Rigged Death Trap posted:Jeez man there isn't anything unique or special about Islam that leads to violent outbreaks, global jihad, antisemitism and the like. Im not coming from strong bias. But I am thinking thoughts that are not neutral so Im looking for some perspective. You are right. Extremists have killed at abortion clinics and destroyed testing labs. But I cant shake the feeling that theres a big difference in frequency and severity (bringing down planes and skyscrapers) I havent heard of that stuff happening in a long time. And they didnt travel to other countries to kill foreigners. But Ill stop talking I dont want to upset anyone
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Jan 28, 2015 00:13
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logosanatic posted:With all the stuff on the news showing attacks all over the world, frequently against other muslims, but against everyone really. When muslims were chearing in the streets post 9/11 its hard not to get worked up. Most of it is due to the legacy of colonialism and imperialism I mentioned in my previous post. Like I said, pretty much the entire Middle East was either directly occupied by European powers or under puppet governments controlled by European powers. These were, for the most part, secular dictators who crushed all political opposition beneath their heel and ruled one-party states for decades, and both forced imposition of Western culture and repression of the religious were common. As those dictators stagnated and weakened, the religious and the anti-Western who had suffered so long under those figures' harsh repression were the fiercest and most dedicated fighters in the the civil wars and revolutions that brought those leaders down, and tend to be among the best-organized as well. And once those dictators are out of power, the modernization and Westernization (including modern conceptions of discrimination and rights) that they enforced at gunpoint tends to go out the window as well. And any time revolutionaries seize control of a country by force, whether they're religious or not, the violence rarely stops there. Were the brutal South American dictatorships we set up during the Cold War actually Islamic theocracies? Of course not, yet they sent death squads into the jungle just the same. logosanatic posted:I havent heard of that stuff happening in a long time. And they didnt travel to other countries to kill foreigners. Not hearing about stuff happening isn't the same as that stuff not happening. By my count, the Iranian government has been overthrown at least five times during the 20th century, with four of those times being at the hands of Western powers. Had you heard about that? I doubt it, but at the same time, it puts Iran's dislike for the US in a whole new light, doesn't it? Main Paineframe fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Jan 28, 2015 |
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Jan 28, 2015 00:13
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SurgicalOntologist posted:I'm sorry to say but lots of people do targeted killing. Would it be worth our time to list examples of politically or religiously motivated targeted violence carried out by non-Muslims? People keep giving you one or two but maybe if we put together like 30 you'd get the point. But maybe it wouldn't be worth the effort either and you'd deflect. That would be useful to get some perspective. Are other groups blowing up buildings and planes(not the ukrainian war zone one)
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Jan 28, 2015 00:17
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Maybe we should look at the deadliest terrorist attack in French history oh wait that was an attack by far right French (at least they were born in France, unlike the Hebdo shooters who were WAIT they were also born in France hmmm). And the group involved certainly didn't have a lot of its members go around the globe to help commit violence in other countries *cough cough*
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Jan 28, 2015 00:19
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Main Paineframe posted:
I was referring to animal rights and abortion bombings But you are right Im not familiar with the iran situation. Theres a lot of history I dont know compared to you guys Im a complete amateur.
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Jan 28, 2015 00:20
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logosanatic posted:That would be useful to get some perspective. Are other groups blowing up buildings and planes(not the ukrainian war zone one) Back in the 30s and 40s, the religious terrorist groups Irgun and Lehi had a real affection for indiscriminate bombings, including major building bombs and train bombings, not to mention storming villages to indiscriminately massacre civilians, including women and children.
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Jan 28, 2015 00:25
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There was American support for Irish terrorism in London, seems to me that this was because the Holy Roman Empire was disbanded. Catholicism is bad! I think this also explains pedophile priests.
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Jan 28, 2015 00:27
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quote:Israeli Air Force warplanes attacked Syrian military targets shortly after midnight on Wednesday, as air raid sirens blared in the northern Golan Heights towns of El Rom, Neve Ativ, and several Druze villages. The IDF said no rockets had landed in Israeli territory and the military was investigating why the alarms sounded.
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Jan 28, 2015 00:48
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logosanatic posted:Im not terribly informed on the entire history of Israel. I don't believe you're being honest. edit: While I recall banning the accusation of Hasbara in one of these threads, the whole just registered yesterday and just asking questions because I'm naive and want to learn shtick isn't doing you any favors. And learn how to use apostrophes. http://forums.somethingawful.com/banlist.php?userid=114216 Xandu fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Jan 28, 2015 |
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Jan 28, 2015 01:50
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logosanatic posted:Is that it seems like theres muslim violence all over the world. It seems that way because you're imposing a nonsensical category ("muslim violence") on a spectrum of problems taking place all over the world. If I lumped all violence done by white Christians into a single category I could get myself really worked up. They've been ranging all over the globe for centuries, killing millions! quote:And the ukrainians arent traveling to france to kill cartoonists The Kouachi brothers were French citizens born in Paris, genius.
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Jan 28, 2015 03:24
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Soviet Space Dog posted:...Sri Lankan ethnic/religious conflict? Why are Buddhists so violent jeez? It's all a misunderstanding, really. Life is suffering in Buddhist theology, so if you think about it, the BBS is working on doing Muslims a favor.  I know you were talking about the civil war, but there actually is a (way way smaller, thank God) spot of entirely different actually-religious bother right now, focused around a violent militant Sinhalese-nationalist Buddhist monastic order that's real sore about the [Not-Buddhists] threatening Sinhalese religion and culture and business interests and so forth.
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Jan 28, 2015 07:51
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GreyjoyBastard posted:It's all a misunderstanding, really. Life is suffering in Buddhist theology, so if you think about it, the BBS is working on doing Muslims a favor. 969 is hilarious.  Edit: Wait, you aren't talking about Myanmar? Just how many radical sects of Buddhism can there be? 
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Jan 28, 2015 08:07
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Volkerball posted:969 is hilarious. Lots. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodu_Bala_Sena
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Jan 28, 2015 08:12
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Al-Saqr posted:Oh my god I cant believe how many people are making Sisi ( a bloodthirsty dictator who killed egypts only attempt at democracy) and is the regime that DIRECTLY CONTRIBUTES TO THE PROBLEM as if he's some Martin Luther PLEASE read the news or check the facts. Not really suited to this thread but I know a guy who thinks Egypt should return to a Constitutional Monarchy and that the Monarchy of the early 50s was good for people.
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Jan 28, 2015 11:49
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I wake up this morning to find that Israel and Syria/Hezbollah have been exchanging fire and that Israelis are appalled, just appalled that anyone would have the nerve to resist their belligerence. Seriously, the trigger for this is the strike by an Israeli attack helicopter on a convoy in Syria that turned out to contain high-ranking Hezbollah and even Iranian officials, yet everything I see out of the Israeli media is acting as if the retaliatory attacks were completely out of the blue. We'll see how much this escalates. It's just morbidly fascinating to me how warped the perceptions of many Israelis are.
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Jan 28, 2015 13:17
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I don't know, it's pretty fascinating to me that in a conflict between Israel and the Syrian regime, one would come down on criticizing the Israelis. 
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Jan 28, 2015 13:20
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Hezbollah AT rocket took out an IDF humvee apparently. Mortar attacks on the Golan. Looks like Netanyahu got his war. Edit: Oh and apparently in the meanwhile IDF has started shelling southern lebanon and managed to kill a spanish UN peace keeper. This poo poo's gotta be worth at least 6 seats in the knesset I bet.
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Jan 28, 2015 13:23
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Hezbollah AT rocket took out an IDF humvee apparently. Mortar attacks on the Golan. Did they attack from Lebanon?
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Jan 28, 2015 13:26
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Yes, near the Shebaa Farms.
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Jan 28, 2015 13:29
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Xandu posted:I don't know, it's pretty fascinating to me that in a conflict between Israel and the Syrian regime, one would come down on criticizing the Israelis.
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Jan 28, 2015 13:30
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Why do you think Israel expected nothing to come out of it? Seems to me like the wrong conclusion.
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Jan 28, 2015 13:32
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Xandu posted:I don't know, it's pretty fascinating to me that in a conflict between Israel and the Syrian regime, one would come down on criticizing the Israelis. It seems pretty reasonable to criticize the side which is trying to start a war, rather than the one which is responding to repeated provocations.
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Jan 28, 2015 13:33
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Xandu posted:I don't know, it's pretty fascinating to me that in a conflict between Israel and the Syrian regime, one would come down on criticizing the Israelis. There aren't many regimes that manage to look worse than Assad's, but Bibi's one of them.
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Jan 28, 2015 13:38
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Cat Mattress posted:There aren't many regimes that manage to look worse than Assad's, but Bibi's one of them. Meh, I think if you'll ask any of the Druze living in the Israeli golan they'd tell you they're quite happy they're living under Bibi rather then under Assad and Al Qaeda. Comparing the death tolls would also make Bibi look like a saint.
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Jan 28, 2015 13:42
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Yeah I don't really have much of an issue with him bombing the crap out of the Syrian regime. Starting another war in Lebanon though...emanresu tnuocca posted:Yes, near the Shebaa Farms. edit: Missed this the first time around. That explains their response I guess. Xandu fucked around with this message at 13:49 on Jan 28, 2015 |
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Jan 28, 2015 13:47
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Election time, better start a minor war. Like loving clockwork.
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Jan 28, 2015 13:49
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I can't wait to be bombed for 34 days again and then have Hezbollah declare victory because hey, they blew up a couple tanks. Woohoo. Time to have every single road and bridge blown up again I guess. And just to add insult to injury Iran has been threatening Israel over that attack for over a week now so it's not like they didn't see it coming. You'd think all that US money and tech would let them prevent that stuff. botany posted:Election time, better start a minor war. Like loving clockwork. Don't worry, the Lebanese never have elections anyway. Too busy being boycotted for a year. Unless you're talking about Israel, I guess their public eats up that poo poo.
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Jan 28, 2015 14:00
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botany posted:Election time, better start a minor war. Like loving clockwork. I wonder if you could predict the timing of Israeli elections just by the amount of people the IDF kill.
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Jan 28, 2015 14:02
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bpower posted:I wonder if you could predict the timing of Israeli elections just by the amount of people the IDF kill. Too many false positives.
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Jan 28, 2015 14:08
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