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Shbobdb posted:If a stranger is robbing or killing me, that stranger is more likely to have a badge than not. Source please.
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Jan 29, 2015 18:52
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Shbobdb posted:If a stranger is robbing or killing me, that stranger is more likely to have a badge than not. [citation needed] E: ^^ 
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Jan 29, 2015 18:59
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YarPirate posted:Is it even possible to quantify the deterrent effect, seeing as how it's not like we can go around polling people who 'would have committed a crime if it weren't for those meddling police'? General deterrence is always difficult if not impossible to measure, but as most violent offenders are not first time offenders, there's a specific deterrence argument as it relates to that particular offender (ie if you are incarcerated it's harder to offend) UberJew posted:'I'm sorry if you were offended' is not an actual apology, doubly so when it's 'I'm sorry if you felt threatened when I threatened you'. Doing so given the current climate, particularly towards women, on the internet is pretty ridiculous. I think so.
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Jan 29, 2015 19:02
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YarPirate posted:Is it even possible to quantify the deterrent effect, seeing as how it's not like we can go around polling people who 'would have committed a crime if it weren't for those meddling police'? I might still have journal access if anyone wants me to dig up specific papers.
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Jan 29, 2015 19:05
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welcome posted:Source please. He knows everyone who isn't a cop and doesn't know any cops, gotcha sucker 
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Jan 29, 2015 19:10
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bassguitarhero posted:Glad to see the authoritarians have fully turned this thread into a giant piece of poo poo like always Ah yes. People who do not have the same "gently caress the police, all cops are bad" mentality that I do are making GBS threads up the thread. It couldn't possibly be people unwilling to actually think and consider actual, realistic reform. Discuss ways to appropriately achieve reform. Or simply have reasonable meaningful discourse on what constitutes true abuse of authority. Nope. Its certainly not them, and the brilliant ones who are saying disband the police, asking why they are needed, saying poo poo like: Shbobdb posted:That's a lot of theory and not much practice. Nope. Certainly isn't them.... Or Sedan Chair.. Its "the authoritarians" Tell me about scoring the gig of ghost writing the new Rage Against the Machine album.
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Jan 29, 2015 19:13
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Shbobdb posted:I'm not asking why cops exist originally or in theory. I'm asking why I should tolerate cops. I'm asking what good they actually serve. It's not like it'll change what you do or how you behave either way, will it? 
Farmer Crack-Ass fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Jan 29, 2015 |
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Jan 29, 2015 19:30
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:It's not like it'll change what you do or how you behave either way, will it? When those in favour of police reform push for civilian review boards or body cameras the police will complain that it is onerous and pointless because they are inherently good guys and need nothing to cause them to behave morally. Indeed some police will event state the law gets in the way of doing good. However if a citizen asks why the police are necessary the police state that without laws and police forcing citizens to behave everyone would immediately start acting immorally and harm their fellow citizens.
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Jan 29, 2015 19:40
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Rent-A-Cop posted:It is measurable but kind of squidgy. If I recall correctly the most significant deterrent effect comes from certainty of arrest, with severity of punishment being a pretty minor consideration. As a follow up to this post, a good reading list can be found here: John Jay College of Criminal Justice. A lot of the papers are linked directly, so journal access isn't necessary.
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Jan 29, 2015 19:41
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Police are vital to any modern society, and our current police institutions are probably the best, fairest, most transparent versions that have ever existed in this nation. That is in no way contradictory to stating that the police as an institution absolutely need reform to address the racism, sexism, cronyism, and a whole host of other issues that are still undeniably part of the system.
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Jan 29, 2015 19:57
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captainblastum posted:Police are vital to any modern society, and our current police institutions are probably the best, fairest, most transparent versions that have ever existed in this nation. That is in no way contradictory to stating that the police as an institution absolutely need reform to address the racism, sexism, cronyism, and a whole host of other issues that are still undeniably part of the system. Pretty much this. The "old timey police" that people keep pointing out and the pictures suck rear end. Old timey police sucked way more than it sucked today. The Police Service today is way better than it has ever been. Still sucks, though.
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Jan 29, 2015 19:59
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captainblastum posted:Police are vital to any modern society, and our current police institutions are probably the best, fairest, most transparent versions that have ever existed in this nation. That is in no way contradictory to stating that the police as an institution absolutely need reform to address the racism, sexism, cronyism, and a whole host of other issues that are still undeniably part of the system. Yeah, the reality of historical policing means that American police have a very, very low bar to clear to be the best they've ever been.
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Jan 29, 2015 20:00
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e: nope
woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Jan 29, 2015 |
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Jan 29, 2015 20:13
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Pope Guilty posted:Yeah, the reality of historical policing means that American police have a very, very low bar to clear to be the best they've ever been. Pretty much, the sheer level of incompetence is staggering in most police forces, and is not helped by the fact that a great deal of officers seem to believe that they are walking avatars of justice. Judge Dredd is probably a better policeman than some of them.
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Jan 29, 2015 20:28
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UberJew posted:'I'm sorry if you were offended' is not an actual apology, doubly so when it's 'I'm sorry if you felt threatened when I threatened you'. Doing so given the current climate, particularly towards women, on the internet is pretty ridiculous. Agreed with this post. Sedan, often you and I are on the same page, but that's certainly not cool.
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Jan 29, 2015 20:36
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SedanChair posted:You are correct, it was not an actual apology. And none of my criticisms had anything to do with ActusRhesus' gender. So you think that it's ok to harass and threaten someone in order to silence them (in this case a woman but I'm contending that it's a poo poo thing to do regardless of gender) to win an internet argument? Or is only ok in the pursuit of Correct Opinions?
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Jan 29, 2015 20:39
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SedanChair posted:You are correct, it was not an actual apology. Classy.
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Jan 29, 2015 20:43
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e: nope! Shouldn't have engaged.
woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Jan 29, 2015 |
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Jan 29, 2015 20:45
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SedanChair posted:I believe in the forum rules. And that right there, coupled with your previous comments about being able to identify me can also be reasonably interpreted as a threat to try to impact my career because I disagreed with you on the internet.
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Jan 29, 2015 20:48
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SedanChair posted:I believe in the forum rules. So threatening someone with "hey I know who you are and where you work" is a perfectly acceptable way to hold someone accountable for (again) an internet slap fight?
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Jan 29, 2015 20:51
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:So threatening someone with "hey I know who you are and where you work" is a perfectly acceptable way to hold someone accountable for (again) an internet slap fight? No, it isn't. I am sorry for breaking the forum rules.
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Jan 29, 2015 20:52
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SedanChair posted:No, it isn't. I am sorry for breaking the forum rules. how very authoritarian to apologize to the rules instead of to people
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Jan 29, 2015 20:55
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SedanChair posted:No, it isn't. I am sorry for breaking the forum rules. You are a really gross person and I hope some day you understand that. To apologize for breaking the rules when you've harassed and threatened the livelihood of a human being because they disagreed with you is really quite something. Tiny Timbs fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Jan 29, 2015 |
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Jan 29, 2015 20:59
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Zeitgueist posted:Agreed with this post. Thank you for that. You and I are rarely on the same page but I appreciate your recognizing that this went too far.
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Jan 29, 2015 21:01
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Sorry folks, I got really frustrated. I lost my cool when the real work I've done was dismissed as "hippy bullshit" and reacted totally inappropriately. ActusRhesus, I'm sorry.
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Jan 29, 2015 21:15
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SedanChair posted:Sorry folks, I got really frustrated. I lost my cool when the real work I've done was dismissed as "hippy bullshit" and reacted totally inappropriately. ActusRhesus, I'm sorry. No, I called your suggestion that murderers belong in therapeutic retreats rather than prison "hippy bullshit" However I am glad you are apologizing.
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Jan 29, 2015 21:20
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ActusRhesus posted:No, I called your suggestion that murderers belong in therapeutic retreats rather than prison "hippy bullshit" Dismissing something like that as hippy Bullshit is close to the mindset that leads to mandatory minimums and poo poo. Like All Criminals Commit Crimes, thus they are bad. Edit: disagreeing with that is fine, but calling it Bullshit is not. SSJ_naruto_2003 fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Jan 29, 2015 |
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Jan 29, 2015 21:32
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Yeah the "therapeutic retreat" bit was deliberately hyperbolic, but I definitely think all felons should receive treatment, and that if we have to choose between felons having a neutral or even a fulfilling experience while incarcerated or one filled with torture and rape (as they are now), we should choose the former.
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Jan 29, 2015 21:32
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SedanChair posted:Yeah the "therapeutic retreat" bit was deliberately hyperbolic, but I definitely think all felons should receive treatment, and that if we have to choose between felons having a neutral or even a fulfilling experience while incarcerated or one filled with torture and rape (as they are now), we should choose the former. Edit: Unless the criminals are investment bankers.
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Jan 29, 2015 21:34
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Here. Context. Discussion went from the reasonable "do nonviolent drug offenders belong in prison?" Answer: I agree. No. To "prison shouldn't exist at all."SedanChair posted:Accountability means change, which is more than punishing some shmoe on the beat. Like all murderers, Darren Wilson should have been convicted of murder, then sent to abide at a healing retreat with calm and beatific warders ready to make sure he gets to group therapy on time. And the corrupt policing system that produced him should be destroyed so that there's no brick on top of another one. You destroy corrupt institutions; you recover corrupted individuals. That's justice. That's what the people who are marching want, they don't want blood, they're not like you.
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Jan 29, 2015 21:35
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At a public meeting over whether to create a civilian oversight board for the police, an officer shoves someone and turns the meeting into a brawl. Where could this possibly be? Only St Louis, of course, where cops testifying against civilian oversight were wearing "I am darren Wilson" arm bands http://newsfeed.gawker.com/supremacist-motherfucker-chaos-at-st-louis-cop-ove-1682510440
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Jan 29, 2015 21:35
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Less torture and rape and more boredom and substance abuse but yeah. Incarceration has very little rehabilitative value in America. I agree there can be improvements to rehabilitative programs ( though I think diversionary programs are better for this) but rehabilitation isn't the only purpose of incarceration. Some people can't be rehabilitated.
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Jan 29, 2015 21:37
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bassguitarhero posted:At a public meeting over whether to create a civilian oversight board for the police, an officer shoves someone and turns the meeting into a brawl. quote:"Two or three other anti-police radicals rushed over and things escalated from there." Those drat radicals, always doing radical things like showing up at a city hall hearings to discuss oversight.
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Jan 29, 2015 21:41
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ActusRhesus posted:I agree there can be improvements to rehabilitative programs ( though I think diversionary programs are better for this) but rehabilitation isn't the only purpose of incarceration. Some people can't be rehabilitated.
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Jan 29, 2015 21:43
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Less torture and rape and more boredom and substance abuse but yeah. Incarceration has very little rehabilitative value in America. Sadly that poo poo costs money and nobody wins elections on the "More money for criminals" platform. Especially when the inmates don't know how to fit in society anymore and just go back into prison anyways.
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Jan 29, 2015 21:43
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Those drat radicals, always doing radical things like showing up at a city hall hearings to discuss oversight. Also, "I am being recorded, but I'm just going to say poo poo that is completly contradicted by the video that is currently recording me! I don't know how video cameras work!"
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Jan 29, 2015 21:45
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ActusRhesus posted:I agree there can be improvements to rehabilitative programs ( though I think diversionary programs are better for this) but rehabilitation isn't the only purpose of incarceration. Some people can't be rehabilitated. That's true, but I don't see why that would mean that their punishment should never end.
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Jan 29, 2015 21:45
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ReV VAdAUL posted:When those in favour of police reform push for civilian review boards or body cameras the police will complain that it is onerous and pointless because they are inherently good guys and need nothing to cause them to behave morally. Indeed some police will event state the law gets in the way of doing good. I failed to phrase it clearly - what I meant was that even if the conclusion was that he should not tolerate cops, he probably wouldn't change his behavior as a result of coming to that conclusion.
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Jan 29, 2015 21:45
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Rent-A-Cop posted:I agree that some people just need to be isolated from society at large. I think that is a small minority of offenders though. They should be separated from the rest instead of just tossing all the morons and crackheads in a big pot and then seasoning the mix with a few real psychos. I'd agree with that. Here we tend to use different facilities based on the potential for violence and we do a lot with diversionary programs and special parole.
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Jan 29, 2015 21:46
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Variant_Eris posted:Especially when the inmates don't know how to fit in society anymore and just go back into prison anyways.
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Jan 29, 2015 21:47
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