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I'm also an Israeli who doesn't live there anymore and I lurk around most of the time.Doflamingo posted:In an ideal world it would be London but anti-semitism seems to be on the rise there big time so probably good ol' USA. Hey there friend, living in London is pretty cool. Been here for almost 2 years and haven't run into anti-semitism even once. Even my old flatmate's Arab classmates were super chill. It's mostly super hyped, and most of the antisemitism (in my opinion and experience) is against the ultra orthodox dudes, who to be fair are a bunch of assholes, and the very rich Jews. I think it mostly has to do with them being super rich though (employment and debt and such is a big issue here) and the Jew thing is just easy to latch on to. I don't have PMs but if you want to talk my email is imiftan at gmail
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Jan 29, 2015 22:32
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Main Paineframe posted:I think you're dramatically overestimating how extreme "praise Israel, our steadfast non-Muslim ally in the Middle East" and "kill all the Arab terrorists, collateral damage be damned" are in the current political environment. I'd say that currently, Israel is only slightly right of center in the current political environment, with opposition to our support of Israel being confined mainly to the far left and the most devoted libertarians. While there's been friction between the Obama administration and the Israeli government, and closeness between the Rublican leaders and Israel, that hasn't really had much real effect on the overall political landscape. I'm saying it won't be like this in 20 years. Millennials don't give a poo poo about Israel.
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Jan 29, 2015 22:40
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List of things millennials give a poo poo about: - - - - internet?
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Jan 29, 2015 22:46
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Miftan posted:I'm also an Israeli who doesn't live there anymore and I lurk around most of the time. I heard piece on BBC Newshour where they were talking to people at a Jewish school and how they run the kids through active shooter drills where they all get under their desks. They interviewed some of the kids and it was hosed up, those kids totally thought they were a target for being Jewish. Here's an article about it: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ck-9990197.html e: quote:“You always feel like you have to pretend like it's a real situation and be as silent as possible even though you probably know that there's no one there,” said another. “It's still really important because you know that you are Jewish and lots of people don't really respect that.” This is sick programming. woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Jan 30, 2015 |
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Jan 30, 2015 00:04
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Anti-semitism is on the up everywhere in Europe, but it's not particularly bad in the UK. An earlier poster is correct in saying that there are issues in Ultra-Orthodox communities (which, in the case of London, now sometimes uncomfortably abut large Muslim communities). There have been some worrying outbreaks of anti-semitic behaviour around protests against Israel though; and the growing UKIP voter base is omni-racist.
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Jan 30, 2015 00:17
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Hillary, if elected, will not be anything but unfailingly pro-Israel.
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Jan 30, 2015 00:35
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I'm not sure how this will be accepted, but I wanted to apologize for being really flippant and unconstructive with my responses, which, as both of you noted, had glaringly obvious flaws. I have a huge stack of good information about all of that which is kind of where my reaction came from, but I was expressing it terribly because I really shouldn't be doing serious effortposting at this time with my other obligations. For what's it worth, I think I posted better stuff in the previous threads. However, to rebuild that here, for readers who may not have encountered it, and to express what I wanted to say without putting words in your mouths and being a flippant rear end in a top hat, would require a calmer mind than I had when I responded as above, as well as more focus than I can dedicate to this currently. I'm really sorry for posting poorly, and I hope I can actually contribute to this thread in future. As a response to something I saw raised more recently (although I haven't really read the thread in detail for the span since the posts I'm citing), yes I'm a Jewish Israeli, or rather a Jewish Israeli-American; I was born in the US, lived most of my life in Israel, and am currently back in the US for my PhD, then who knows? I don't think I could stand living in Israel again. I hope that's useful "demographic" data. 
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Jan 30, 2015 00:38
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I don't think I could stand living in Israel again. I hope that's useful "demographic" data. Do you think it's logical for Jews to move to Israel in the hope of being safer there than in Western European countries? This has always seemed to be to be substituting one set of problems for another.
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Jan 30, 2015 00:42
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This comment piece by a Jewish Briton argues that there really isn't that much anti-Semitism in the UK: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/19/antisemitic-britain-jewish-experience-1930squote:During such a warm and enjoyable day it felt a little bizarre to contemplate the current news context, the fevered alarm about reportedly rising and dangerous levels of antisemitism. We discussed it in the evening, reflecting that through all we had done from being kids, we had encountered no meaningful antisemitism, ever. Historically, and compared to the terrible hardships people endure in so much of the world, we live in a truly privileged time and place. The very idea that 56% of Jewish people responding to an online survey said they believed antisemitism now “echoes the 1930s” and 58% that Jews have “no long-term future in Europe” we find extraordinary, surreal. Plus given even Le Pen has to pretend she isn't an anti-semite I think its fair to say even racist populists like UKIP wont bother with anti-semitism because some members may believe it Jews are too well integrated into the UK to use for negative cohesion in the public sphere. The memories of the Ostjuden are long faded. I am curious about the claim that rich Jewish people have faced anti-Semitism though. I can't say I've heard about that. Ed Miliband, leader of the Labour party, the second largest party in the country is a secular Jew and he has received a tremendous amount of criticism and attack from pretty much every quarter but his Jewishness hasn't been an issue and if anything undermined an attack the Daily Mail tried to make on his father who was a refugee from the Nazis. The increase in anti-Semitism, alongside the rise of xenophobia after the GFC, is likely at least in part an aspect of Israel's efforts to make Israel the representative of all Jewish people in global perceptions. If that so happens to make life harder for Jewish people living outside Israel, well, if things get bad enough that they choose to emigrate to the promised land that's hardly a loss for Israel.
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Jan 30, 2015 00:43
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I think there's a lot to what you're saying ReV, although the crime stats also show that anti-semitic attacks hit a 30 year or so high last year (with a good like 1/3 of those around the latest violence in Gaza).quote:The number of antisemitic attacks in the UK last year was highest recorded in the past three decades. The Community Security Trust, which records attacks on the Jewish community in the UK, found there had been a 36% rise in the total number of antisemitic incidents, including violent crime and vandalism, to 304 between January and June. That was followed by 130 incidents in July alone, which coincided with the Israeli military offensive in Gaza. All things considered, though I don't think it's a major issue in the UK right now. Anti-semitism in the UK has always been pathetic and anaemic for a long time, and to the extent that UKIP are racist, they're much more racist against asylum seekers and eastern Europeans. Disinterested fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Jan 30, 2015 |
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Jan 30, 2015 00:46
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Hey I/Pcrew I haven't looked at this thread in a bit, did anyone write any good effort posts on the upcoming election I can insert into the OP?
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Jan 30, 2015 01:42
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Disinterested posted:Do you think it's logical for Jews to move to Israel in the hope of being safer there than in Western European countries? This has always seemed to be to be substituting one set of problems for another. I don't honestly think that there's a less safe country for Jews to live in the West over Israel. You got what, 25,000+ deaths since the founding of the country? Half a dozen wars? God knows how many suicide bombings and massacres? Honestly most of Israelis can trace their origins or actually hail from worse places - immediate post Holocaust Europe, Soviet Union, Arab nations - most Jews with chance to get somewhere better then Israel usually do so. Most of the world's Jews still live elsewhere. Zionism is such a depressingly ironic failure in so many ways, beyond having become utterly morally bankrupt. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Jan 30, 2015 |
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Jan 30, 2015 01:50
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Israel is the only safe place on earth for the Jewish people, who are frankly suicidal if they choose not to move there. Israel is beset on all sides by the bloodthirsty Muslim hordes and will be slaughtered if Obama should suggest one more time that they make a token effort to not bomb children. If US air lines shut down travel for a single day during the Hamas "bombing campaign," that is anti-Semitism. Israel is perfectly safe. What do you mean we can't ethnically cleanse people in the West Bank? Did they have a flag before we got here? That is anti-Semitism. Israel is as safe as Bibi needs it to be at any given time of day.
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Jan 30, 2015 03:08
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Disinterested posted:I think there's a lot to what you're saying ReV, although the crime stats also show that anti-semitic attacks hit a 30 year or so high last year (with a good like 1/3 of those around the latest violence in Gaza). Which would suggest that the people carrying out those anti-semitic crimes are conflating Jews with the state of Israel, and that's a conflation the Israeli government is happy to encourage.
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Jan 30, 2015 03:31
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emanresu tnuocca posted:If we could all refrain from responding the trolls and clueless anti-semites this thread would
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Jan 30, 2015 04:41
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This thread is actually at its best when it's slow.
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Jan 30, 2015 05:53
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Disinterested posted:I think there's a lot to what you're saying ReV, although the crime stats also show that anti-semitic attacks hit a 30 year or so high last year (with a good like 1/3 of those around the latest violence in Gaza). Are these instances of real antisemitism or Defamation style someone made a mean comment on Facebook or someone didn't get the job raise they wanted and it is definitely because they are Jewish?
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Jan 30, 2015 07:19
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Volkerball posted:This thread is actually at its best when it's slow. Yeah. No pro-Israeli is actually capable of offering consistent or honest debate so I use it as an information resource, and its great at that.
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Jan 30, 2015 09:21
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I always get suspicious when I hear people talk about increased antisemitism in the West and I wonder how much of it is actual antisemitism and people calling criticism of Israel antisemitism
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Jan 30, 2015 09:34
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Honestly I'm just a bit surprised at how the term came to be used as it is since I was always taught that Arabs were also Semites back when I was in school.
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Jan 30, 2015 09:47
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gently caress You And Diebold posted:Are these instances of real antisemitism or Defamation style someone made a mean comment on Facebook or someone didn't get the job raise they wanted and it is definitely because they are Jewish? Six of one and half a dozen of the other. It goes from anything between someone verbally harassing you, to them breaking Jewish gravestones and graffitiing swastikas on syangogues, to beating them up in the street. We're still talking about just 300~ incidents in six months as the 30 year high. KomradeX posted:I always get suspicious when I hear people talk about increased antisemitism in the West and I wonder how much of it is actual antisemitism and people calling criticism of Israel antisemitism There are some forms of criticism of Israel that are anti-semitic, of course, but there is probably a little of this. I think it's partly that outrage against Israel's actions also gives anti-semites a place to hide and have an opportunity to get a few hits in as well - there's always one or two people in the crowd complaining about how the Jews really do control international finance and the international print media in the style of old fashioned anti-Semitism, for example, or brandishing anti-semitic images. Then you have this kind of lower-middle class pigheaded ignorance that's on the rise in the form of UKIP, that really heavily buys in to all kinds of ethnic stereotyping: e.g. Spaniards are lazy, Germans are warlike, Jews chase money. These people aren't violent, but they are obnoxious and growing in their political power. Also the odd person who attempts to re-cast Hamas as simply a group of hardy and plucky freedom fighters uncritically, which isn't necessarily anti-semitic but is very naive.
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Jan 30, 2015 09:47
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Disinterested posted:Six of one and half a dozen of the other. It goes from anything between someone verbally harassing you, to them breaking Jewish gravestones and graffitiing swastikas on syangogues, to beating them up in the street. We're still talking about just 300~ incidents in six months as the 30 year high. living in europe, the swastika anti-semitism isn't just directed at jews. the other day I was on the RER and saw someone had vandalized a door panel with a swastika saying "arabs, gently caress your pig god, death to you all" i'd say it's less specific anti-jewish sentiment, and more that neofascism is on the rise 
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Jan 30, 2015 10:13
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Condiv posted:living in europe, the swastika anti-semitism isn't just directed at jews. the other day I was on the RER and saw someone had vandalized a door panel with a swastika saying "arabs, gently caress your pig god, death to you all" I went to school with some kids who used to draw swastikas all over the place who weren't even racist, they just did it because it was the most taboo thing they could draw 
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Jan 30, 2015 10:17
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Dead Reckoning posted:If we could all refrain from responding the trolls and clueless anti-semites this thread would improve drastically. have run out of steam and been locked six months ago. But then where would we get such profound insights like "I bet those Jews are just lying about anti-semitism being a problem, and even if it is then it's Israel's fault"? 
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Jan 30, 2015 10:34
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It looks like a UAE backed rival for the leadership of the Palestinian Authority may be emerging and using Serbia as a base of operations: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/30/palestinian-president-rival-given-serbian-citizenship quote:Serbia’s government has quietly granted citizenship to Mohammed Dahlan, a key rival of the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, and adviser to the crown prince of Abu Dhabi. I can't really add much to this since I'm unfamiliar with the internal politics of the PA but it certainly seems noteworthy. The article also goes on to talk about significant proposed investment in Serbia by the UAE, which again I don't know much about but is also interesting.
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Jan 30, 2015 13:12
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Disinterested posted:Six of one and half a dozen of the other. It goes from anything between someone verbally harassing you, to them breaking Jewish gravestones and graffitiing swastikas on syangogues, to beating them up in the street. We're still talking about just 300~ incidents in six months as the 30 year high. Well I was speaking more of towards how often people who speak out about Israel's human rights abuses get tarred as antisemites. Hell a bunch of pages back I remember a fight going on about a professor who tweeted that Israel was making the term antisemitism a positive thing by associating people who champion human rights with it. Of course cause it was a tweet it did come off sounding much more crass, As I'm an American I really can't speak for how exactly right wing assholes think in Europe and living in New York with its heavy jewish population you don't see a lot of open hate towards Jews and everytime some rear end in a top hat goes and defaces a Synagogue or vandalizes some Jewish homes it makes front page news across the city. There are people that will still say off color jokes about Jews, but it is definitely in a different tone than the one they use when speaking about Black people or Muslims.
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Jan 30, 2015 13:55
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KomradeX posted:Well I was speaking more of towards how often people who speak out about Israel's human rights abuses get tarred as antisemites. I know. It happens everywhere, but it's not all of it, is what I mean.
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Jan 30, 2015 14:08
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HGH posted:Honestly I'm just a bit surprised at how the term came to be used as it is since I was always taught that Arabs were also Semites back when I was in school. "Anti-Semitism" was literally invented as a term by 19th century racists who thought "Jew hatred" didn't sound quite fancy enough. "Aren't Arabs also Semites" is the equivalent "If you're so tolerant, why are you intolerant of my intolerance" in terms of mind-numbingly smug idiocy. All you're missing is a "checkmate, Zionist-tards". ... Yesterday, highschool students in Israel had their matriculation exams in history. Presented here without comment, (Edit - actually. Uh. I believe that "this is what people are actually saying in their every day lives, this is what schoolbooks are like" is far better than "this is a quote from some fucker at some event". This is pretty much everything Jewish Israeli students are expected to know in terms of history. I will refrain from comment as to interpretations) 1. The Nazi ideology and its implications A) Explain the principle of Nazi ideology expressed in the following caricature:  B. Present the results of the "Night of the Long Knives" and explain how these results contributed to expressing one of the principles of Nazi ideology. (I swear the sentence is just as convoluted in the original) 2. Nazi policy towards the Jews. A) Present two steps taken by the Nazis against German Jews between 1933 and 1935. Explain how each of the steps changed the status of German Jews in terms of legal or socioeconomic status. B) Present two steps taken by the Nazis against the Jews in 1938, and explain how each of the steps represents an exacerbation of Nazi policy towards the Jews. 3 Nazi policy towards the Jews in occupied Poland. A) Explain the purpose of the policies taken by the Nazis against the Jews of Poland from the start of the occupation and until their concentration in ghettos. Give two examples, from different areas, of the implementation of this policy. B) Explain why the Nazis decided to mange the ghettos through Judenrats, and present two other ways in which they supervised the ghettos. 4 The attitude of the population in occupied countries towards the Jews. A) Read the following section, which relates the story of [some Jewish girl] being rescued by [some Latvian guy whose name I can't even begin trying to transcribe] who was awarded the honorific of Righteous Among Nations. Explain the criterion's according to which the honorific was awarded, as expressed in the section. According to the study material (is that a proper translation here?), give two motives for those who tried to save Jews in the occupied countries. B)Explain the motives of Nazi collaborators, and the "silent majority" 5 The Wannsee Conference A) Historians claim that the decision to enact "The Final Solution" was made before the conference. Present at least one line of reasoning that supports this claim, and explain why the conference was called. B) Explain how the totality of "The Final Solution" was expressed in the conference protocol. Give at least two examples. 6 Ways in which the Jews fought back. A) Ghettos had arguments about starting a rebellion. Present at least two arguments for and against an armed revolt. B) Explain the reasons why Jewish fighters would join the armies of the Allies during WWII (student calls me aside: "Does that mean Germany's allies?  ") 7 The War of Independence. A) Read the following sentence, which describes the start of the war, and answer the following questions. Abridged: " The clashes of November 1947 were the result of an Arab plot. The Arab mob rampaged through the Jerusalem commercial center, burning and looting Jewish stores. The Haganah's weak response boded ill for the upcoming battles. Soon, roads across the entire country were in danger. The only road that connected Jewish settlements without passing through Arab territory was between Tel Aviv and Haifa. Isolated settlements were under siege. Irregular forces of Palestinians blocked the road to Jerusalem. The first months of fighting saw 250 Jewish casualties, almost half as many as the total number of casualties during the three years of the Arab revolt (1936-1939)." Present the way in which the Arabs acted as the war started, as as expressed in the section. According to the study material explain one way in which the Jewish settlement handled the difficulties the war brought on (ugh, sorry for the terrible translation) at this stage of the war. B) Explain the factors that led the State of Israel to victory despite the imperiled condition of the settlement at the start of the war. 8 The Jewish settlement and the British Mandate (1945-1948) A) One of the areas in which the Jewish Settlement struggled with the British Mandate is the area of settlement (just as poorly phrased in the original) Present one of the goals of this struggle, and one course of action the Settlement undertook. B) Explain how Jewish Settlements struggle against the British (in 1945-1947) contributed to Britain's decision to let the UN decide the issue of Israel (the Land of Israel). In your answer, refer to the military and immigration aspects. 9. The Declaration of Independence and the Altalena Affair A) Abridged: Explain two of the reasons given by those supporting an immediate declaration, and two (sic! No emphasis) of the reasons given by those wishing to postpone the declaration for a later date. B) Ben Gurion's decision to strike against the Altalena is controversial. Some believe this was necessary, others claim it was a mistake. Present your position, with supporting arguments. Base your answer on historical facts. 10 The impact of the De-Colonization process on Jews in Islamic Lands. A) Present three factors that aided the de-colonization proces. B) Read the following section, presenting a letter sent by a Jew from Beirut to Paris. Abridged: "With the mandate coming to an end, the Muslims are mad with joy at their upcoming independence - but we fear the lack of restraint, the security the flags of France gave us. The French quickly quashed attempts to break the peace, and dealt justice. Whenever we felt in danger due to the events in Palestine, the representatives of France would bring peace to our communities". Explain which of the factors that led to the deterioration of the situation for Jews in Islamic Lands, are expressed in the section. 11 A) Explain which considerations led to Israel's policies of immigration and absorption in the 50's and 60's. B) Explain the difficulties new 12 The Yom Kippur war. A) Present two reasons for the war breaking out, and explain why the State of Israel was taken by surprise when the war broke out. B) Present two immediate results of the war, as well as two ways in which this war influenced Israel in the long term. Disinterested posted:I went to school with some kids who used to draw swastikas all over the place who weren't even racist, they just did it because it was the most taboo thing they could draw
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Jan 30, 2015 14:16
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Xander77 posted:Jesus gently caress. I'm not sure why you're reacting so violently. I was legit confused since English isn't my first language. I don't choose the material that shows up in history books and classes and as far as I knew Semite referred to regional and racial characteristics. I wanted to know how the term was co-opted to be so specific, not try to justify some crazy racial agenda. Is trying to learn the context of things so wrong? And what's with the random video?
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Jan 30, 2015 14:32
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HGH posted:I'm not sure why you're reacting so violently. I was legit confused since English isn't my first language. I don't choose the material that shows up in history books and classes and as far as I knew Semite referred to regional and racial characteristics. I wanted to know how the term was co-opted to be so specific, not try to justify some crazy racial agenda. Is trying to learn the context of things so wrong? Anti-semitism has always meant a hatred of Jews in particular. Words don't always mean exactly what their etymological roots do. For instance, homophobia means bigotry against gay people, not a fear of them. And Xander apparently reacts violently to practically anything; don't take it personally.
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Jan 30, 2015 15:03
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Xander77 posted:Jesus gently caress. And those European racists didn't have a particularly high opinion of Arabs either, and would have surely objected had Arabs been in Europe to any significant degree. It is inappropriate and confusing to call Arabs antisemitic.
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Jan 30, 2015 15:11
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Sometimes Xander makes very flippant and bad posts, but other times he posts good and informative things, like that history exam. I appreciate when you take the time to translate this kind of stuff. Anti-semitism has a very clear definition that does not jive with its linguistic roots. Fair on you if if you just didn't know of it, but there's no point arguing against the semantics of it. Language just evolves, and it's not always pretty. Homo- means the gays now, and -phobia means bigotry towards (and literally means figuratively). Islamophobia is the name for bigotry against the rest of the Semitic people, even though the name might make you think it has something to do with religion.
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Jan 30, 2015 15:47
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Kajeesus posted:Sometimes Xander makes very flippant and bad posts, but other times he posts good and informative things, like that history exam. I appreciate when you take the time to translate this kind of stuff. That's incredibly dumb because those same people who hate Arab Muslims also hate Pakistani Muslims, who are not Semitic.
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Jan 30, 2015 16:16
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SedanChair posted:That's incredibly dumb because those same people who hate Arab Muslims also hate Pakistani Muslims, who are not Semitic. They hate races associated with Islam, including South Asians and Turks(neither of whom are semitic.) That's why Islamophobes often attack Hindu and Sikh targets.
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Jan 30, 2015 16:21
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They hate "foreigners" and nonwhites.
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Jan 30, 2015 16:27
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Okay, that was a facetious remark. Islamophobia also targets Sikhs, Pakistani people, the occasional African or African-American Christian and anyone else caught wearing a turban, niqab, keffiyeh or similar head covering. E: Once Turks and South Asians come into the picture, it has less to do with assuming they're moon-worshipping Sharia-toting suicide bombers and more to do with a generalized bigotry against anyone who looks too foreign, in my experience. There's a generous overlap, but I think Islamophobia is a specific subcategory of racism that I've only seen targeted at people who happen to look "middle eastern" in some way. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Jan 30, 2015 |
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Jan 30, 2015 16:29
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Thank you for the copious information. I think I have a flawed understanding of things(especially since it indirectly affects me a bunch) and I generally just want to learn them better. I didn't mean to change the subject or cause drama, or be offensive. In a bit of tangential news, Nasrallah had yet another one of his speeches today. I only heard a part but the gist of it was "We do not want war but we are not afraid of engaging in one". HGH fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Jan 30, 2015 |
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Jan 30, 2015 16:46
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ReV VAdAUL posted:It looks like a UAE backed rival for the leadership of the Palestinian Authority may be emerging and using Serbia as a base of operations: It's hard to gauge Palestinian politics from afar since it doesn't get much English-language coverage, but I don't see Dahlan having much chance unless Abbas royally fucks up. He doesn't really seem to offer anything that Abbas doesn't, and he played a role in many of Abbas' fuckups and mistakes - including the rampant corruption. Lots of nasty rumors about him, though some may very well be fakes invented by political rivals like Abbas.
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Jan 30, 2015 18:08
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So I'm looking at the polls for this Israeli election, and can an Israeli or just a better-informed poster explain to me how in the gently caress Zionist Camp has a path to 61 seats even if they eke out a narrow victory over Likud? Because it looks like they're doomed from the start.
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Jan 30, 2015 19:10
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ReV VAdAUL posted:It looks like a UAE backed rival for the leadership of the Palestinian Authority may be emerging and using Serbia as a base of operations: Dahlan? That evil fucker? Yeah, that'll help stabilise the situation. As for anti-Semitism in Britain, the BBC did an analysis of the stats, and there's a lot of overhype going on there.
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Jan 30, 2015 19:11
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