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Captain_Maclaine posted:It also smacks of self-contradiction, much like the supremely-human/supremely divine dual natures usually ascribed to Jesus himself. I get it, if you're inclined to believe anyway I suppose that strikes as some sort of awe-inspiring mystery, but from where I'm standing it just looks incoherent. I suppose mysteries of faith are kind of like that. quote:Why ought we imagine that as possible, let alone likely? There's poo poo that happens that I'd even venture to say cannot be justified, save in the Jobian "I'm infinitely powerful so shut your goddamn hole, that's why!" sense. It's probably a matter of where we're coming from when we look at it. If we come at things from the point of view of "here is bad thing, therefore..." it becomes very difficult to come to terms with the existence of any sort of unhappiness. If, however, we come at things from the Christian point of view of "here is God, therefore...", even those things which don't make sense to us at first (or even second or 3000th glance) must be held in a different light, since our a priori assumption is that God has everything figured out for the best. Like you say, why ought we to assume the second instead of the first? There's no reason to unless you want to, of course. It's one of those things that only makes sense from within the context of the belief system.
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Jan 29, 2015 18:11
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Kyrie eleison posted:This is not related to what we're discussing, which takes as assumption that God exists and created everything. We are discussing the morality of God, hypothetically. Well I guess we should take it easy on God, it's not like he's God or something. We should appreciate what God has managed, it's not like he can create whatever he wants...
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Jan 29, 2015 18:13
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Mr. Wiggles posted:I suppose mysteries of faith are kind of like that. Believing something just because you want to is a really lovely way to live your life and I guarantee you don't do that for any other belief you hold and would unconsciously recoil from the thought of doing so.
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Jan 29, 2015 18:22
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Who What Now posted:Believing something just because you want to is a really lovely way to live your life and I guarantee you don't do that for any other belief you hold and would unconsciously recoil from the thought of doing so. No, it is very good actually.
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Jan 29, 2015 18:48
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Who What Now posted:Almost 50% of Americans believe that the earth is between 6-10,000 years old, so let's not pretend it's a fringe belief either. Like, an analogy would be if someone looked back and combined an Athenian war, Indian removal, the post-9/11 run up to war and the recent House immigration screeching and said, "You see? Democracy is fundamentally racist. Only loving stupid racists could support democracy." I feel this is the level of discourse about religion in history a lot of the time.
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Jan 29, 2015 19:10
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Most theologies do center around either classical or abrahamic style gods though. Even animistic religions tend to personify their gods to some degree.
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Jan 29, 2015 19:15
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Nessus posted:Sure, it's definitely a big influence... in America, now. This is a pet peeve more related to historical discussions. I'm pretty sure that Bronze Age people also thought the earth was somehow magically created by God or by some other supernatural means, so I'm still not sure what you're upset about.
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Jan 29, 2015 19:16
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Who What Now posted:Almost 50% of Americans believe that the earth is between 6-10,000 years old, so let's not pretend it's a fringe belief either. Citation needed. A lot of the polls I've seen that show high creationism belief combine old earth creationism and young earth creationism to reach those figures. For example the National Center for Science Education broke it down: http://ncse.com/blog/2013/11/just-how-many-young-earth-creationists-are-there-us-0015164 Nintendo Kid fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Jan 29, 2015 |
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Jan 29, 2015 19:30
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Nintendo Kid posted:Citation needed. A lot of the polls I've seen that show high creationism belief combine old earth creationism and young earth creationism to reach those figures. For example the National Center for Science Education broke it down: http://ncse.com/blog/2013/11/just-how-many-young-earth-creationists-are-there-us-0015164 Gallup reflects close to the same, but also shows spikes in YEC: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/06/01/gallup-poll-46-of-americans-are-creationists/
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Jan 29, 2015 19:38
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CommieGIR posted:Gallup reflects close to the same, but also shows spikes in YEC: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/06/01/gallup-poll-46-of-americans-are-creationists/ This is the poll I was thinking of. It seems I misremembered the creation of humans with the creation of earth, although many Creationists believe those two events to coincide.
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Jan 29, 2015 19:49
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It's actually a weird cognitive dissonance thing going on. A lot of people seem perfectly willing to understand and believe the universe is like 10 billion years old, earth is 5 billion, and life in general is like 4 billion, but they will be pissed if you try to get them to admit that "real humans" weren't created by god rather recently.
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Jan 29, 2015 19:59
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OwlFancier posted:
I may be missing your point in which case my response may not even apply to your comment. And it seens like everyone is mostly making up their own version of what god is. So in the spirit of expressing individual made up beliefs... What works for me is a god who created the universe, set the laws of physics, and kicked off the big bang. From there the universe, humans and religion have been evolving since the big bang. We don't know the purpose of existence but supposedly there is one even if were just a movie, video game to god. Now if god exists, and I believe he does because like 80% of the human population believes he does. Which to me signals that humans ai/brains are programmed to believe. In which case all the religions that have existed and have evolved, one on top of the other is the by product of this programming. Like a roomba doesnt know why it exists. But it rolls around the house vacuuming. Its not smart enough know its vacuuming let alone why that would be worth doing(generally to make house wives feel better about the condition of their home). I feel like humans are the same. Were programmed to do something. We dont know what were doing let alone why were doing it. Hopefully its more than making gods housewife feel better about the cleanliness of the universe. Maybe were destined to be the universes janitors. Not a very prestigious position but who are we to complain. For me, all the religions are worth studying as far back as we have records of religion to study. It might give us a glimpse into our programming. I'm not sure if religion is there to guide us(in which case its very bad at doing that) or if its a byproduct of our evolution towards what our purpose is. From where I'm sitting early religions are pretty horrendous. Promoting slavery and genocide. Newer religions tend to lag the overall improvement in human moral standards. But the religions that human brains puke out. The inclination of humans to believe something greater exists points to where we are headed. When I look at the trajectory of the human race over the past 300 years of technological, information, knowledge, moral standards. Im very optimistic about the type of humans that will exist in 1000 years, then 1 million years etc. The further down the timeline you go the more the technology looks like magic and the more morally good humans are. Aka the more god like they will seem. Interstellar the movie that recently came out had multi dimensional future humans guiding relative ancient humans on the path towards high level technological godlike status. Now thats sci fi. But just like religion. The human brain produces sci fi that has an interesting knack for predicting future tech advancement. While religion trails our morality. Sci fi leads our tech development. The genesis story says that when adam and eve ate from the tree of knowledge god said "they have become like us" then kicked us out of eden. To me that implies that what seperates us(who were made in gods likeness) from god is knowledge, the word, logos, technology. Thats a big derail let me get back on point. Everything god created is evolving according to his plan and doesnt need more nudging from him. So we dont have his direct involvment. The reason to worship such a god is because hes a rockstar. And people go crazy over celebrities. Unlike jennifer lopez or elvis presley who perform and collect my money. Gods plan involves some amazing niverse encompassing stuff. And even if I'm just the janitor and hes not going to directly answer my prayers. He still gets my submission(islam) and love(jesus) and worship/awe (God).
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Jan 29, 2015 20:18
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It's OK, one day you'll look back on this early posting and wonder what you were doing, too.
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Jan 29, 2015 20:21
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This post is rambly enough that I predict at least one, but juuuust coherent enough that likely less than three, bong rips went into its creation. How close am I?
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Jan 29, 2015 20:22
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logosanatic posted:Now if god exists, and I believe he does because like 80% of the human population believes he does. Which to me signals that humans ai/brains are programmed to believe. Were human brains programmed to believe that sickness comes from evil spirits? Because most people used to believe that.
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Jan 29, 2015 20:25
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OK. Just this once, 'cause you're new.logosanatic posted:What works for me is a god who created the universe, set the laws of physics, and kicked off the big bang. From there the universe, humans and religion have been evolving since the big bang. I don't care about what works for you if what works for you has no logical validity. logosanatic posted:We don't know the purpose of existence but supposedly there is one even if were just a movie, video game to god. You assume the universe has a teleological nature, which would have to be demonstrated (you can't). logosanatic posted:Now if god exists, and I believe he does because like 80% of the human population believes he does. Which to me signals that humans ai/brains are programmed to believe. 80% of the human population believe lots of things aren't true, and have believed even wronger things in the past. This proves nothing. There are other explanations to the phenomenon you are describing e.g. our pattern seeking nature, as encouraged by evolution. logosanatic posted:In which case all the religions that have existed and have evolved, one on top of the other is the by product of this programming. This in no way follows from the previous statement. Just because belief in a God is programmed, doesn't at all suppose that all beliefs of any kind are programmed. logosanatic posted:Like a roomba doesnt know why it exists. But it rolls around the house vacuuming. Its not smart enough know its vacuuming let alone why that would be worth doing(generally to make house wives feel better about the condition of their home). At this point you went full 420, I think the bong hit really landed here. logosanatic posted:I feel like humans are the same. Were programmed to do something. We dont know what were doing let alone why were doing it. Hopefully its more than making gods housewife feel better about the cleanliness of the universe. Maybe were destined to be the universes janitors. Not a very prestigious position but who are we to complain. What you feel is irrelevant. If you could prove it, that would be something. logosanatic posted:For me, all the religions are worth studying as far back as we have records of religion to study. It might give us a glimpse into our programming. You don't seem to consider the possibility that religion might give us insight, but insight into our bad programming, e.g. an accidental offshoot of our evolved nature. logosanatic posted:I'm not sure if religion is there to guide us(in which case its very bad at doing that) or if its a byproduct of our evolution towards what our purpose is. The weed's wearing off by this point. logosanatic posted:But the religions that human brains puke out. The inclination of humans to believe something greater exists points to where we are headed. Another hit was taken. logosanatic posted:When I look at the trajectory of the human race over the past 300 years of technological, information, knowledge, moral standards. Im very optimistic about the type of humans that will exist in 1000 years, then 1 million years etc. The further down the timeline you go the more the technology looks like magic and the more morally good humans are. Aka the more god like they will seem. This is just a lazy generalisation. Also there is a difference between godlike and godly. I think it is safe to assume that no human being or any biological relation thereof can ever assume the status of an actual monotheistic god, e.g. total boundlessness in every particular (total knowledge of all information, etc.) as it may be intrinsically impossible; if not impossible, totally at odds with our present understanding of the universe (which should govern the bounds of your conjecture somewhat). logosanatic posted:Interstellar the movie that recently came out had multi dimensional future humans guiding relative ancient humans on the path towards high level technological godlike status. Now thats sci fi. But just like religion. It is in no way like religion, unless I missed the part in sci-fi where the existence of these multi-dimensional humans was used as a justification for the moderation of sexual behaviour between consenting adults. logosanatic posted:The human brain produces sci fi that has an interesting knack for predicting future tech advancement. Also a very bad knack, we call what you're doing 'confirmation bias'. If you can conjecture every remote possibility, you'll hit the nail on the head sometimes. It's only impressive when you actually say how the poo poo will happen, at which point you're really being a physicist. logosanatic posted:While religion trails our morality. Usually but not always. logosanatic posted:Sci fi leads our tech development. [Citation needed]. logosanatic posted:Thats a big derail let me get back on point. It's less batshit than what some people ITT believe, somehow. logosanatic posted:Everything god created is evolving according to his plan and doesnt need more nudging from him. So we dont have his direct involvment. [Citation needed] logosanatic posted:The reason to worship such a god is because hes a rockstar. And people go crazy over celebrities. Unlike jennifer lopez or elvis presley who perform and collect my money. Gods plan involves some amazing niverse encompassing stuff. And even if I'm just the janitor and hes not going to directly answer my prayers. He still gets my submission(islam) and love(jesus) and worship/awe (God). Take another hit my man. Disinterested fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Jan 29, 2015 |
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Jan 29, 2015 20:34
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Who What Now posted:I'm pretty sure that Bronze Age people also thought the earth was somehow magically created by God or by some other supernatural means, so I'm still not sure what you're upset about. Now, this does not mean that this has not been an effect, but it was not a goal in and of itself for these groups. When the Catholic church was founded, even the most pessimistic and cynical perspective would say that their goal was the preservation and increase of their temporal power and wealth, and I imagine that if the early Church fathers thought that encouraging the development of industry and material experimentation would have done that better than other methods, they would have backed that horse. Even if you are four-square 100% against any and all religious belief whatsoever, you ought to consider what they actually believe, if only so that you can structure your arguments better, and address their perspective, not your image of their perspective. You may say 'oh well who cares they'll just die out anyway because church attendance rates are falling,' but I believe the history of the last fifteen years shows that this is unlikely to be a silent process.
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Jan 29, 2015 20:41
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Joined two days ago, rambling on at great length to say nothing, mentioned logos.... Brandor, are you sockpuppetting?
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Jan 29, 2015 20:56
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Who What Now posted:Joined two days ago, rambling on at great length to say nothing, mentioned logos.... I did consider that. But it was incoherent in a very different way.
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Jan 29, 2015 20:58
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logosanatic posted:So in the spirit of expressing individual made up beliefs... Well, I'd have to agree that that does sound mildly drug induced, but if you want a moderately succinct response: Humans are somewhat rational creatures, it's what sets us apart from other animals. We can think abstractly and put together ideas and look for causitive links and stuff like that. We can try to understand why things happen, and that ability lets us act intelligently, and make really good tools. It's what allows us to prosper the way we do. Human evolution has selected very strongly for intelligence because it's so drat useful. The downside is that we have a tendency to look for meaning and whys everywhere. Even if there isn't one. We see complicated things and we assume, by and large, that there is something human-like on the other side making it go, because we know human-like things exist and it seems the most intuitive answer. But that's a very anthropocentric view of the world, and that's the big danger of intuition. As humans we assume everything is like us. We assume our pets can love us, we assume the world is just, we assume that complicated things were created by something intelligent. In reality there isn't really any justification for this belief, other than itself. If you look at the world from a non-anthropocentric viewpoint, there is very little reason why any of those things should be. So yes, humans are sort of pre-programmed to believe in gods, because it's one of many expressions of our intuitive self-obsession, but that doesn't mean we're right about it. We assumed that the earth was the center of the universe for a while, or at least the people who didn't do much looking at the stars did, and that turned out wrong. Human self absorption is its own main justification, so to get out of that particular intellectual trap you need to consciously reject it to begin with. There isn't really any need for a god in the world, and there certainly isn't any need to worship it if it did exist. Either it exists and will continue to do so without your help, or it doesn't and you're wasting your time. The world constantly throws evidence at you that it doesn't much give a poo poo one way or another about humans, they just exist, and that they do exist doesn't mean they exist for a reason, any more than Mars exists for a reason. It's a lump of rock drifting through space, there are many like it. Humans being somewhat rarer doesn't make them purposeful, it just makes them unusual. Things can and do just happen, or just exist. There doesn't have to be a why to everything. Only humans need that kind of justification.
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Jan 29, 2015 20:59
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Mr. Wiggles posted:our a priori assumption is that God has everything figured out for the best. Yeah, I mean, it's almost as though you're freely acknowledging that your worldview is a product of extreme bias, yet for some reason you don't seem to have a problem with it. Obviously your assumption is that God has everything figured out, which is why everything MUST be for the best/have some good reason behind it. Nothing can count as evidence against your assumption, since you have already assumed it! At worst, a damning piece of evidence can be explained away with "well I don't know, but I'm sure there's a reason". What people have been bringing forth is meant to challenge that assumption. Why would it be true that there is a being who "has everything figured out for the best"? That's a hell of an assertion to make, especially without any evidence to support it. And without that proven definitively, we have to look at the way the world is, and make assumptions from that - namely, that with all the senselessly bad poo poo in the world, there could not possibly be a God as Christians describe it. quote:Like you say, why ought we to assume the second instead of the first? There's no reason to unless you want to, of course. It's one of those things that only makes sense from within the context of the belief system. It's a mistake to assume we're on two opposite sides of an assumption. It's like people that think (American) democrats are left and republicans are right. The truth is more that the democrats are in the middle and the republicans are insane. Likewise, your assumption comes from a position of incredible bias, whereas the agnostic position tends to come from neutrality. I know, I know, you're probably laughing at that. But it's true, at least for me - I favor no religious position over any other, not even the "religion" of atheism. Much like scientific theories, I fully admit that my position may not be exactly correct, but it's the mostly likely given the evidence we have. You, on the other hand - by your own admission - heavily favor Christian views, so anything purporting to come from that ideology, you give more weight, even if it makes less sense than an alternate idea. You're not willing to challenge that "a priori" assumption, because it's too important to you personally. It'd be too hard to come to grips with reality if it weren't there.
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Jan 29, 2015 22:23
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Well, I never said that I was't biased.
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Jan 29, 2015 22:37
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Mr. Wiggles posted:I suppose mysteries of faith are kind of like that. The problem with assuming that God's plan is unknowable and good for you is that it rests on two other assumptions: A) That God is supremely powerful, there is nothing that he cannot do, and B) That God loves humans, collectively and individually. When you look at the world though, it's clear that A and B cannot both be true. If God did love us, he wouldn't have created a world with things beyond human control that cause suffering, e.g extreme weather events, volcanic eruptions, diseases and so on. You can't say that the suffering caused by these is somehow necessary, because nothing is necessary for God. Whatever result God is going for, he could have achieved it without this suffering, because he can do anything he wants. So we're left with the options that either he doesn't care about our suffering, he actively wants us to suffer, or he's not all-powerful. Given that, you can't trust in God's plan, because if he doesn't love you, then it probably won't be for your benefit, and if he's not all-powerful, he might not be able to implement his plan the way he wants it. That's the major problem I have with your philosophy on God. I'd love to hear how you reconcile this, because you have good thoughts on most things to do with Christianity.
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Jan 30, 2015 00:35
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Speaking of logos, here are a couple cartoons made in the 80's by an evangelical production company: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzSwBsgHHXI I like how you are supposed to be aghast about Jehovah Jesus doing his armageddon thing when Evangelicals have the exact same fantasy (except they get raptured instead of a hundred thousand witnesses) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HSlbuli7HM
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Jan 30, 2015 04:36
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Believing the Gospel and Scripture is like accepting an axiom or an assumption that changes the way you perceive everything in reality, including the 'problem of evil'. The problem of evil is no longer a problem if you believe. Skeptics claim they are reasoning based on what the evidence supports, but clearly that doesn't get to the heart of the issue, because believers are also very clearly doing the same. The difference is that believers are reasoning from a position of faith in the Bible and Scripture whereas skeptics and agnostics are not. I was a skeptic and agnostic for most of my life until my conversion which completely overturned my previous worldview. If you are not a believer, you can be aware of the internal consistency of the believer's framework, but will always resist because skeptics and agnostics exist in their natural state of unbelief and rebellion against God. Therefore this will be reflected in their reasoning, and from the believer's point of view it is sadly not neutral in the way skeptics or agnostics wish it were.
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Jan 30, 2015 20:03
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CowOnCrack posted:Skeptics claim they are reasoning based on what the evidence supports, but clearly that doesn't get to the heart of the issue, because believers are also very clearly doing the same. The difference is that believers are reasoning from a position of faith in the Bible and Scripture whereas skeptics and agnostics are not. No, they are not. There is no evidence that supports a reasonable belief in a god so belief in God is de facto unreasonable. The bible and scripture is nothing more than words on paper with no corroborating accounts to support it's supernatural claims. Faith is by definition belief without sufficient evidence and is really nothing more than gullibility. On a lighter note I'm glad to see you were able to post bail on your stalking charges.
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Jan 30, 2015 20:13
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Your Brain on Hugs posted:The problem with assuming that God's plan is unknowable and good for you is that it rests on two other assumptions: A) That God is supremely powerful, there is nothing that he cannot do, and B) That God loves humans, collectively and individually. When you look at the world though, it's clear that A and B cannot both be true. If God did love us, he wouldn't have created a world with things beyond human control that cause suffering, e.g extreme weather events, volcanic eruptions, diseases and so on. we dont know what the purpose of our existance is. Therefore we can't say whether his methods are appropriate, evil, good etc. We are children or worse compared to god. My kids may feel that Im ruining their lives by forbiding a boyfriend I dont like. Or pushing them to do an extra 2 hours of studies when their friends are outside playing. Or buying a junk car for their first vehicle that they will bang up when their friends are getting status vehicles. What a child desires. What a child thinks is the right way is not what an adult decides is the right way to do things. The adult would be right. Im more comfortable with a god who created us for a purpose. That purpose involves death, disease, hunger as part of the journey. We as children can demand that a good god remove the pain. The same way a child may demand to stay up past midnight. Ive read that humans develop technology to have a more comfortable existence. To stop pain, be entertained etc. If we had the perfect existence we would have no reason to slave away at scientific breakthroughs. the suffering is the catalyst to push us for making a better life for the human species as a whole. So that someday we can create heaven for ourselves on earth as is written in the book of revelations. Jesus teachings, his death as a martyr were also catalysts for change. Like a catlyst in a chemical reaction. The question about why wouldn't a "good" god create a better(by childs standards) journey for our purpose. As far as I know angels live in paradise heaven with god. If thats what he wanted for us we would be angels rather than humans. For better or for worse our existence includes both pleasure and pain. As a species our trajectory is on a good path of greater comfort, pleasure, less pain. And I have to come to terms with the natural order of things.
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Jan 30, 2015 20:24
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That does basically amount to saying that god doesn't actually want us to be happy, because if he did he would have created us that way. To which the reasoned response is that god is a knobhead.
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Jan 30, 2015 20:26
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CowOnCrack posted:Skeptics claim they are reasoning based on what the evidence supports, but clearly that doesn't get to the heart of the issue, because believers are also very clearly doing the same. The difference is that believers are reasoning from a position of faith in the Bible and Scripture whereas skeptics and agnostics are not. No. Believers are not doing the same thing. Just like you can't tell the difference between 'Harassment' and 'Talking'
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Jan 30, 2015 20:29
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logosanatic posted:we dont know what the purpose of our existance is. Therefore we can't say whether his methods are appropriate, evil, good etc. What possible purpose does child rape solve? To "give us a reason to strive to be better" is not only an insufficient answer to the question but it's also a morally repugnant one.
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Jan 30, 2015 20:31
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Yall need to realize that everything that has and will happen is all going on simultaneously right now regardless of how it is perceived by humans. Humanity and earth are already redeemed in the eyes of God- that is to say that evil is already destroyed, we (as Christians) just need to actualize it.
Miltank fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Jan 30, 2015 |
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Jan 30, 2015 20:33
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logosanatic posted:we dont know what the purpose of our existance is. Therefore we can't say whether his methods are appropriate, evil, good etc. Let's see, a few choice examples: Great Flood: Pretty much genocide - Evil Plagues of Egypt and Death of all First Born - Genocide and undue harm - Evil (and heart hardening) Testing people faiths via unreasonable trials (Job, Isaac) - Evil Miltank posted:Humanity and earth are already redeemed in the eyes of God- that is to say that evil is already destroyed, we (as Christians) just need to actualize it. Whose god? Your god? What about in the eyes of Zeus or Odin?
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Jan 30, 2015 20:36
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OwlFancier posted:That does basically amount to saying that god doesn't actually want us to be happy, because if he did he would have created us that way. Here it is, again and again: "God is bad, God is evil, we shouldn't respect God." This is the real atheistic argument. Listen, people. This whole way of viewing the world is why you are unhappy. You have decided that all of creation is a bad thing and that we are trapped in this miserable place waiting to suffer and die. That is how you choose to view the world, and you think that if someone put you here, then you hate that person! You hate him for putting you in this terrible world! So, that's the pessimistic outlook you have chosen, and it defines your entire life. The alternative outlook is the hope that creation is a good thing, and that the apparently "bad" elements of it ultimately work into some grander plan. This is what faith is, it's hope in a more positive interpretation of our earthly existence. It is absolutely the most important and critical virtue a person can possess. Everything else is totally meaningless. You can't have any virtues or qualities without faith. Faithlessness poisons everything.
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Jan 30, 2015 20:56
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Who What Now posted:No, they are not. There is no evidence that supports a reasonable belief in a god so belief in God is de facto unreasonable. The bible and scripture is nothing more than words on paper with no corroborating accounts to support it's supernatural claims. Faith is by definition belief without sufficient evidence and is really nothing more than gullibility. Agreed theres no information available about what existed before the big bang. god, no god. Something advanced enough it might as well be god. The universe is 14 billion years old earth is 4 billion humans are 200 thousand human archaelogical explostion happened 50k years ago which is when I would mark the intellectual awakening of modern man. The known universe determined by the boundaries of how far away we can see based on how far away light has reached us is massive enough that I have no trouble believing that mathematically other alien races exist. And theres a good chance that the universe doesnt stop at how far away light has reached. It may stretch infinitely in every direction. At which point. If human life is a natural, chemical, physics occurance. In an infinite universe other alien species have to exist. Some of those species would be the lucky ones. Their earth would have formed at the beginning of the universe. And if evolution takes 4 billion years to produce intellect on the level we have. Based on how long it took for us to have our explosion on earth. That still gives them a 9 billion year tech development head start on us. In the past 300 years weve made amazing tech progress 300 years vs 9 billion. How godly would those aliens seem compared to us. What will aliens be capable of by the heat death of the universe. Will an alien species transcend the heat death, survive it? Would they be capable of guiding the next itineration of the universe 2.0? Im willing to call them god. In the old testament god talks to adam/eve and hes having a conversation with other gods. The seemingly simple answer is there was nothing before the big bang. time didnt exist. God didnt exist. Then for too advanced for us science reasons the big bang happened. It came from nothing. Matter sprang from nothingness. Time began. That warps my brain thinking about it as much as believing something we could call god is behind it all. but the god version has the benefit of having a beginning, a purpose for the present and future. So it appeals to me more. It also ties human history/religion and tech development into a neat little bundle. I accept that nothing might be the correct answer. i accept that all religions including my own made up version is definitelty wrong. But in the absence of any information (god of gaps) I like my story best
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Jan 30, 2015 20:56
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Kyrie eleison posted:Here it is, again and again: "God is bad, God is evil, we shouldn't respect God." This is the real atheistic argument. This is why you didn't understand atheism. Its not about God ACTUALLY being bad or good, its that there are massive paradoxical issues with the way he operates, which directly calls into question his existence at all. THAT is the point we are making, not that he actually exists and is bad. Most of us are not actually pessimistic, in my opinion I'm pretty optimistic, but I'm also a skeptic and I will question everything until evidence supports the idea in question.
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Jan 30, 2015 20:57
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logosanatic posted:We are children or worse compared to god. My kids may feel that Im ruining their lives by forbiding a boyfriend I dont like. Or pushing them to do an extra 2 hours of studies when their friends are outside playing. Or buying a junk car for their first vehicle that they will bang up when their friends are getting status vehicles. What a child desires. What a child thinks is the right way is not what an adult decides is the right way to do things. The adult would be right. Or is only God allowed to teach us lessons using cruel methods? Maybe people only have the capacity to teach certain things through hardship, but God isn't limited by that rule. He could teach us the same lesson without anyone being raped, but he's choosing not to. Being able to act to prevent suffering and choosing not to isn't neutral, it's evil.
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Jan 30, 2015 20:59
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CommieGIR posted:This is why you didn't understand atheism. You say, "If he did exist, he would be bad." What you have to understand is that if he did exist, he would be good; then, you can understand that he actually does exist.
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Jan 30, 2015 21:00
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logosanatic posted:But in the absence of any information (god of gaps) I like my story best Might as well adopt any other fictional story as an explanation if you are going to hook on to that train of thought.
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Jan 30, 2015 21:00
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Kyrie eleison posted:You say, "If he did exist, he would be bad." What you have to understand is that if he did exist, he would be good; then, you can understand that he actually does exist. Except for all the glaring character flaws. But don't worry folks, he's a changed guy Kyrie eleison posted:then, you can understand that he actually does exist. Nope. Arguing against your premise does not mean I must accept your premise. quote:It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
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Jan 30, 2015 21:01
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Miltank posted:Yall need to realize that everything that has and will happen is all going on simultaneously right now regardless of how it is perceived by humans. Humanity and earth are already redeemed in the eyes of God- that is to say that evil is already destroyed, we (as Christians) just need to actualize it. Well loving get to it, slacker. logosanatic posted:It came from nothing. Matter sprang from nothingness. This is incorrect. So it warps your brain thinking about it because it is wrong. We have no reason to believe that matter "sprang from nothingness" and that is a wholly nonsensical thing to say.
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Jan 30, 2015 21:01
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