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Crain posted:(The previous post wasn't ninja edited, I was literally saying that I'm removing the "thanks for still not contributing" line from the previous post. So can we please stop this now?) I posted that at the exact same time as you posted, but edited in what I missed. I knew what you meant. And sure, I'm done derailing! Sorry for loving up the discussion folks!
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Jan 28, 2015 02:23
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:It seems crazy that there's like a handful of movies explicitly about drone warfare and one of them is loving Robocop. Holy poo poo. We were warned.
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Jan 28, 2015 02:24
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2014, to be clear.
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Jan 28, 2015 02:25
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:2014, to be clear. Oh, lame.
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Jan 28, 2015 02:27
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Larry Wilmore had a roundtable discussion about different reactions to the film on Monday's The Nightly Show. I don't really agree with some of what was said, but it was nice to see a healthy exchange of different perspectives about the film and the public reaction to it. Link to just the roundtable below but the full ep is on Comedy Central's website (aside from a bad Michael Moore fat joke, it's worth watching in full as well). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITyHYWO0VCo
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Jan 28, 2015 03:15
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i like how this movie brings out the simplification of the iraq war and who we were fighting on both sides. Facebook comments going "IM ashamed to be american these Iraqis were protecting their own country and they called terrorist" Uhhh nope. These guys were ISIS before they became ISIS. Most of the Iraqi Insurgency groups had no qualms kidnapping aid workers or civilian contractors and cutting their heads off. Im sure many Iraqis (mostly Shia i believe)in which benefited from the US Invasion and were put into power were not exactly "Defending their own country". In fact i don't think i even have issue with the "dehumanization of the enemy" in which i think they went for a pretty tame take on the insurgency, who often times used female suicide bombers and if they really want to dehumanize them they should draw more things from real life like a bunch of iraqi insurgents aiming from the hips yelling allah ackbar while hitting nothing or how incompetent iraqis are like Iraqi army recruits failing to do star jumps and how much they suck in combat compared to Chris Kyle (part of the reason ISIS gained so much momentum) and lets not forget the 2004 Fallujah killings in which the four PMC dudes were ambushed, burnt and hung from the bridge by insurgents while the local populace jumped up and down celebrating. I mean how do you humanize an enemy who really loving hate the west and USA in general and does so much to reaffirm the beliefs of a simpleton like Chris Kyle? But i think the obvious problem American Sniper fails to do is to say enough or ask enough questions, and that is to raise the issues of the war along with questioning the character of Chris Kyle. A movie that only wants to show the "effects of combat on veterans and their family and what they had to put up with" has been done to death and is just not good enough for a movie about a war like Iraq and a person like Chris Kyle. On another note, i went on the wiki article for the 502nd Infantry regiment of the 101st airborne: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/502nd_Infantry_Regiment_%28United_States%29#Iraq and it funny that I remember the article used to talk about he Mahmudiya Killings in which troops from the 502nd raped and killed a little girl and her family. But this has since been removed and the only link between the regiment and the incident is the reference to USA Pfc. Kristian Menchaca and Thomas L. Tucker on the bottom of the article. I feel like the Iraq war is becoming a bit hazy for a lot of people, and videos of IEDs and other incidents i use to see on youtube are becoming harder to find. People actually think they're fake at time which is laughable. And turns out the guy who removed the section on the rape was a guy from the 502nd :/ astupiddvdcase fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Jan 28, 2015 |
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Jan 28, 2015 04:00
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astupiddvdcase posted:i like how this movie brings out the simplification of the iraq war and who we were fighting on both sides. Facebook comments going "IM ashamed to be american these Iraqis were protecting their own country and they called terrorist" When I complain about the dehumanizing of Iraqis in the movie, I am not talking about the actual insurgents. I'm talking about the civilians. Not a single Iraqi civilian who gets a line is shown in a non-negative light (okay, maybe the kid who gets killed by the Butcher, but he's pretty much a non-entity). The kid's father wants money for the information, the guy outside the Butcher's hideout is actually hiding a terrorist weapon cache, the racist sniper's wife gives out US troop locations, etc etc. Also one of the main issues of the Iraq occupation was the complete lack of a plan beyond "let's invade", so even sympathetic iraqis (including army members who went to the point of refusing to fight the Coalition) were kicked from their jobs, generating resentment and bolstering paramilitary numbers. I wouldn't go to the point of saying "many Iraqis benefitted" at all. The MilHist thread recommended this documentary on the topic, in case you want to know more. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykpf5nDIs9M
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Jan 28, 2015 06:18
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Well killing thousands of them probably didn't do a lot to promote warm feelings towards the west (especially considering it was an unprovoked attack from a former ally). That, and destabilizing a country is pretty much just making it a no man's land for whatever semi-organized force wants to do their thing. If Canada started rolling tanks down main street I don't see why I'm supposed to avoid immediately hating them. If the radical religious fundamentalists in my own country begin violently trying to take the country or their region back, I'm not going to stop hating the invaders, especially considering that they're the reason the power vacuum exists in the first place. This view isn't represented in the movie. The masses of people who are just witnesses and casualties to this war who die and live in fear simply because of an invading force. They are not at all represented in the movie. The people simply trying to get by in an active war zone. This is the problem with trying to 'humanize*' someone like Kyle. It creates the false belief in a common warrior code embodied in honor and righteousness. The reality is that as a general rule, if you're totally cool killing lots of people there's pretty much nothing else you won't do. The fact many Americans can't even comprehend the idea of Kyle being the psychopathic liar that all evidence points to is because it immediately and directly injects chaos into your worldview. After all, if killing someone is not done by men with honor, that means we live in a world where killers lie, cheat, and steal and that would mean we're pretty much at the whim of the worst parts of society. It directly means we don't live in a just world. People do not get what they deserve, good or bad. It's important to question where you are and what you are doing. *I should be clear, by humanize I mean to try and make him a likeable character in a movie rather than to try and be somewhat honest to who he was or at the very least how he presents himself. The irony is that they actually dehumanize him by creating a facade of a real person and painting them up. mugrim fucked around with this message at 06:36 on Jan 28, 2015 |
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Jan 28, 2015 06:30
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Crain posted:It's interesting that he's taking the stance that snipers and drone operators share a similar perspective in the war zone. It makes sense since they are, at least traditionally, separated from the people they kill. Although Drone operators to a much greater degree. An idea comes to mind though: What if the choice of Chris Kyle as the "face" of the Iraq War is a deliberate choice (propaganda wise) to keep the war itself at arms length when examining it in the context of what's happening on the ground? And I think it all boils down to individual disposition, anyway. Sure, distance is dehumanising. But if you are a psychopath, you can get equally hot and bothered by the idea of looking that guy in the face as he dies as by the idea of he won't even know what got him. Equally, you can excuse collateral damage or be bothered by it precisely because it's so... collateral. I already mentioned AG Benson. Here's a version of the story: quote:Austin Gates Benson, Fred’s son, at the age of 19, enlisted in the United States Air Force, because one of his goals in life was to help bring Osama bin Laden to justice for orchestrating the murder of thousands of Americans. Benson’s brilliance in computer engineering and programming ensured that he would not contribute to the cause of the U.S. military in a combat role, but rather as a computer specialist in Afghanistan. Always a precocious boy, at the age of 18 he was reading and writing at the high collegiate level, and at the age of 7, he was an extra in the Julia Roberts movie “Stepmom.” The (boring, stale, Oscar-baity) script practically writes itself, don't you think? 
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Jan 28, 2015 12:35
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Azran posted:When I complain about the dehumanizing of Iraqis in the movie, I am not talking about the actual insurgents. I'm talking about the civilians. Not a single Iraqi civilian who gets a line is shown in a non-negative light (okay, maybe the kid who gets killed by the Butcher, but he's pretty much a non-entity). The kid's father wants money for the information, the guy outside the Butcher's hideout is actually hiding a terrorist weapon cache, the racist sniper's wife gives out US troop locations, etc etc. ah, ok got it. Seems a lot of people though are just going "OH ANOTHER MOVIE SHOWING ARABS AS TERRORIST! drat THEM" yah know. yeah
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Jan 28, 2015 14:58
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Making a movie about the invasion of Iraq without dealing with why it was done and how those decisions were made is an extremely boring creative choice. Even if Eastwood is being honest and he really intended the film as an anti-war statement he made the most obvious, trite statement there is to make. War is very rough on the soldiers and they often have a hard time adjusting to normal life after its over, wow what a revelation.
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Jan 28, 2015 15:19
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Basebf555 posted:Making a movie about the invasion of Iraq without dealing with why it was done and how those decisions were made is an extremely boring creative choice. Even if Eastwood is being honest and he really intended the film as an anti-war statement he made the most obvious, trite statement there is to make. War is very rough on the soldiers and they often have a hard time adjusting to normal life after its over, wow what a revelation. If Eastwood wanted to make a film about war being rough on the soldiers, who have a hard time adjusting to normal life, then he should have made a film about the guy who shot Chris Kyle.
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Jan 28, 2015 15:45
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meristem posted:I sincerely don't think this was that complicated. Dude wrote a book, that was popular, was already hailed as a hero. I meant specifically relating snipers to Drone operators, there is some similarity but the difference in distance is so much more. quote:And I think it all boils down to individual disposition, anyway. Sure, distance is dehumanising. But if you are a psychopath, you can get equally hot and bothered by the idea of looking that guy in the face as he dies as by the idea of he won't even know what got him. Equally, you can excuse collateral damage or be bothered by it precisely because it's so... collateral. I'd rather watch that. At least AG Benson realized that maybe he was doing something wrong or was being used to do something wrong.
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Jan 28, 2015 17:23
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Fangz posted:If Eastwood wanted to make a film about war being rough on the soldiers, who have a hard time adjusting to normal life, then he should have made a film about the guy who shot Chris Kyle. Or he should have "humanized" him the same way he did the enemy sniper.
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Jan 28, 2015 19:24
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You know that's a really good point. If Eastwood was really so concerned about showing the emotional/psychological damage suffered by these soldiers why not focus a lot more on the guy who killed Kyle? You know, the one who actually had the most severe PTSD of anyone in the story and ended up murdering someone back in the U.S. because of it?
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Jan 28, 2015 19:28
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astupiddvdcase posted:ah, ok got it. Seems a lot of people though are just going "OH ANOTHER MOVIE SHOWING ARABS AS TERRORIST! drat THEM" Because that's exactly what it does. What goes on in that country is not a political or legitimate process, it's just terrorists doing terrorist things. Why are there huge militias swarming around fighting bitterly for control over certain cities and neighborhoods? Why won't they respect the totally legitimate government the US set up for them, that they totally had a coherent plan for? Who cares, right?
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Jan 28, 2015 20:17
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:2014, to be clear. Also the last Transformers, also the last X-Men, also the next Avengers . . .
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Jan 28, 2015 20:25
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I'm still convinced every Bradley Cooper role ever could be improved by switching in Patrick Wilson instead. I dunno why I associate them together but I'm probably racist. Bradley Cooper just feels like empty space in every film I've seen him in (except when he voiced that CGI raccoon, I guess????). Patrick Wilson could be a good American Sniper and he'd probably get castrated somehow in Iraq. also did the dude really die because he went, "A SOLDIER WITH PTSD? I KNOW A GOOD CURE FOR THAT, LET'S TAKE HIM TO THE SHOOTING RANGE TO SHOOT GUNS, WHAT'S THE WORSE THAT COULD HAPPEN" because 
Punkin Spunkin fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Jan 29, 2015 |
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Jan 29, 2015 03:53
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Yeah. It was apparently something he'd done before, too. Pretty tragic all around, though of course all you ever hear about is the death of No. 1 Hero Chris Kyle, and not the friend that was also killed or the broken vet who is now almost assuredly going to spend the rest of his life in prison rather than receiving treatment from an actual professional. edit: Cooper was the high point of the film by far, though I definitely feel like there are other actors that could have done a better job. It certainly wasn't an Oscar-worthy performance. He's gotten pretty good at acting with his eyes, but the rest of him still feels a bit wooden. Maybe he just needs some better scripts. Grizzled Patriarch fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Jan 29, 2015 |
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Jan 29, 2015 04:24
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Basebf555 posted:Making a movie about the invasion of Iraq without dealing with why it was done and how those decisions were made is an extremely boring creative choice. If they did that they'd probably have to address Kyle's claim that he found WMDs in Iraq but the government covered it up at some point during the movie.
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Jan 29, 2015 07:33
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Anyone love how butthurt some people get and lol at the comments http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/01/27/marines-response-to-critics-of-american-sniper-is-10061-words-its-worth-it-to-read-each-one/ The comments are so much fail. It seems like if you are a conservative or watever all of a sudden you cant seem to comphrehend the legitimate view points of the other side. "Yall hate our vets latte sipping liberal fags" Funny that jfk was a wwii vet and bush ran a campaign against his opposition with vietnam war swiftboat vets spouting bs about john kerry. No insult to veterans but some just aint so bright. Love how peope revere veterans so highly and that serving in the military all of a sudden means they know everything about politics even if they are bunch of southern rednecks
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Jan 29, 2015 17:05
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astupiddvdcase posted:Anyone love how butthurt some people get and lol at the comments Just last night MSNBC had a former sniper on talking about an editorial he wrote about how American Sniper is a black-and-white movie that doesn't represent the experiences of all veterans.
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Jan 29, 2015 17:20
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Looking back on it I think Chuck Norris ' s Delta Force movie was a more nuanced take on the Middle East than this one.
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Jan 29, 2015 18:58
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It's pretty much the same take as Team America: World Police, but unironic.
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Jan 29, 2015 19:37
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icantfindaname posted:Well yeah, they are, that's the point. It's bad, and it's also a legitimate criticism of the movie that it glorifies that. You don't have to care personally, but to say the criticism that the movie is basically Nazi propaganda is wrong is insane. If you really don't care then don't say anything either way icantfinddaname posted:the movie is basically Nazi propaganda ...
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Jan 30, 2015 05:22
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"but to say the criticism that the movie is basically propaganda is wrong is insane". So what's insane? Refusing that American Sniper is a piece of Nazi propaganda. I don't see what's wrong.
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Jan 30, 2015 06:19
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Its a false argument anyway. Just because something may not be quite as bad as literal Nazism doesn't mean it isn't horrible and disgusting. At least use the word fascist so that there can be a discussion without the unproductive levels of emotion that come along with any discussion of Hitler and Nazis.
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Jan 30, 2015 15:12
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Basebf555 posted:Its a false argument anyway. Just because something may not be quite as bad as literal Nazism doesn't mean it isn't horrible and disgusting. At least use the word fascist so that there can be a discussion without the unproductive levels of emotion that come along with any discussion of Hitler and Nazis. Oh yes. Sexbeef's post makes more sense to me now. 
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Jan 30, 2015 19:04
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Azran posted:Oh yes. Sexbeef's post makes more sense to me now. I am glad. God bless.
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Jan 30, 2015 20:44
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I don't want to live on this planet any more. The Texas Governor declared February 2nd "Chris Kyle Day", because being an American hero is about murdering civilians in foreign countries and coming home to brag about it.
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Jan 30, 2015 22:35
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Wade Wilson posted:I don't want to live on this planet any more. 
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Jan 30, 2015 22:50
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Wow, the Baghdad theater audience response to this was not what I was expecting at all. Did you guys see this? This movie really is one of the most crazy anti-war movies of the last 10 years for sure. We haven't seen an anti war movie this powerful since some of the (sometimes over the top) Vietnam films. Platoon for example.
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Jan 31, 2015 11:25
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GuyDudeBroMan posted:Wow, the Baghdad theater audience response to this was not what I was expecting at all. Did you guys see this? Most of the complaints of the film relate to it as an adaptation, rather than the content of the movie on its own. This will probably continue until dickwaving about Chris Kyle (in either direction) dies down.
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Jan 31, 2015 14:07
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GuyDudeBroMan posted:Did you guys see this? no
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Feb 1, 2015 06:54
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Hi, I haven't read this thread at all. I get the impression that some people went to this movie expecting it to be journalism instead of art just because it's a loose adaptation of a recent autobiography. It's pretty good though. The fictionalized character of Chris Kyle is a frustrating enigma who keeps going back to war despite the harm to himself and his loved ones because of a compulsion to "Finish it," whatever "it" was in this case being symbolized by Mustafa, who despite having no lines and being plain-looking was an extremely compelling character. I need some more time to think about the sandstorm scene and specifically how it relates to the clarity of all the first-person shots through scopes. Well, bye.
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Feb 1, 2015 07:51
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astupiddvdcase posted:Anyone love how butthurt some people get and lol at the comments As opposed to the people in this thread, who are not butthurt..... lol.
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Feb 1, 2015 07:56
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GuyDudeBroMan posted:Wow, the Baghdad theater audience response to this was not what I was expecting at all. Did you guys see this? An Anti-war movie should focus on those who are killed en masse. At best you could generously say it was 'anti-American involvement', and even then that would be a lie. The real movie that stressed that point would have been to portray Kyle accurately, as a monster. By NOT portraying him as the real life monster he was, you inherently hide the fact that war can exaggerate/create real monsters. Not broken men who occasionally drink too much, or have bad dreams when narratively convenient, but legit blood in teeth monsters who enjoy and love killing. When you make the person more affable and family friendly, you inherently justify their actions.
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Feb 3, 2015 05:13
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Hence why Apocalypse Now is the best war film of all time, showing that mentality taken to it's logical conclusion
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Feb 3, 2015 05:31
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Some other sniper dude writes about his experience in the same war and how it was vastly different than Chris Kyle's http://www.salon.com/2015/02/01/i_was_an_american_sniper_and_chris_kyle%92s_war_was_not_my_war/
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Feb 3, 2015 05:37
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The hot new theory now is that the guy who killed Kyle was a secret Muslim.
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Feb 3, 2015 06:41
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