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MC Nietzche posted:Countries that govern themselves in a truly democratic fashion do not go to war with one another. MC Nietzche posted:They do not aggress against their neighbors to aggrandize themselves or glorify their leaders.  MC Nietzche posted:Democratic governments do not ethnically "cleanse" their own populations, and they are much less likely to face ethnic insurgency. MC Nietzche posted:Democracies do not sponsor terrorism against one another.  MC Nietzche posted:They do not build weapons of mass destruction to use on or to threaten one another. MC Nietzche posted:They are more environmentally responsible because they must answer to their own citizens, who organize to protest the destruction of their environments. MC Nietzche posted:They are better bets to honor international treaties since they value legal obligations and because their openness makes it much more difficult to breach agreements in secret.
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Jan 28, 2015 09:39
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MC Nietzche posted:The essential argument is that democracies do not go to war (and those who say that are probably using a definition of war that excludes covertly overthrowing elected governments like the ones overthrown during the Cold War) with each other. Not that they do not go to war. Is this like a trick question? Then no government is democratic.
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Jan 28, 2015 15:36
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Raenir Salazar posted:Is this like a trick question? Then no government is democratic. Yeah, he is hedging a bit with "truly democratic." Not saying I believe this, I was providing the core of the argument that was brought up in this thread. Diamond is overly optimistic, apparently the 90's were just one gigantic love in.
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Jan 28, 2015 15:44
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The world was looking really good until 9/11. Everything really did change.
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Jan 28, 2015 16:11
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Regarde Aduck posted:The world was looking really good until 9/11. Nah, it was going this way already, it was more of a catalyst speeding the trend up.
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Jan 28, 2015 16:43
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MC Nietzche posted:Yeah, he is hedging a bit with "truly democratic." Not saying I believe this, I was providing the core of the argument that was brought up in this thread. The no true democracy for Scotsmen fallacy?
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Jan 28, 2015 18:32
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hobbesmaster posted:The no true democracy for Scotsmen fallacy? It's not a logical fallacy to point out that there is a qualitative difference between, for example: a 'democracy' in which only propertied men can vote a 'democracy' in which people are legally kept as slaves a present-day Western representative liberal 'democracy' a direct 'democracy' a la Switzerland Including in the way they behave toward each-other. Goons call 'no true Scotsmen' too often; the fallacy requires a much more defined category than 'democracy' to be usefully called-out on.
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Jan 28, 2015 18:36
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Cat Mattress posted:Or, like the USA, they organize to protest the protection of their environment. Can you give an example of this? That isn't mass media related (not horribly slanted or spun out of proportion)? Genuinely curious.
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Jan 28, 2015 18:54
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Mazz posted:Can you give an example of this? That isn't mass media related (not horribly slanted or spun out of proportion)? Genuinely curious. "Job creators" coming together to create and distribute anti-environmentalist propaganda and talking points and the like is absolutely citizens coming together to protest against environmental protection. I don't really see how it doesn't count just because they aren't standing outside holding signs, though you could probably find some signs like "if global warming why snow?  " or "EPA = nazis" and the like if you combed over pictures from Tea Party rallies and the like.
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Jan 28, 2015 19:01
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You guys don't need to argue against that dumb 'democracies never go to war' thing, it was an outgrowth of cold war propaganda that persisted in the fallacy that bankrolling military coups against democratically elected governments isn't state-sponsored terrorism. IR was in a weird place between the end of the cold war and the beginning of the GWOT.
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Jan 28, 2015 20:38
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Democratic peace theory is imho just not true. Interwar era in Eastern/Central Europe had a number of conflicts between "kind of democratic" polities.
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Jan 28, 2015 20:40
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Democracies don't go to war with other countries they consider democratic, too.
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Jan 28, 2015 23:12
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Mazz posted:Can you give an example of this? That isn't mass media related (not horribly slanted or spun out of proportion)? Genuinely curious. Fisheries (and people who fish for a living) in the pacific northwest are this way, but yeah, generally the point stands. And they generally -want- the environment to be healthy, they're protesting over their livelihoods.
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Jan 29, 2015 05:08
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Mazz posted:Can you give an example of this? That isn't mass media related (not horribly slanted or spun out of proportion)? Genuinely curious. I've spoken to people in the New Orleans area who on one hand recognize that their homes are slowly sinking into the sea and that oil and natural gas extraction and related activity are the root cause, but on the other hand they are in miserable poverty and that oil and natural gas extraction is their only means of subsistence. On the balance most of them favored policies that would encourage further extraction, not policies that would help to preserve their community long term because they have families they have to feed right now. A lot of people tried to obfuscate the link between oil and natural gas extraction to prevent the cognitive dissonance of choosing their own long term destruction, but many were surprisingly clear eyed about the choice they were making.
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Jan 29, 2015 05:22
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blowfish posted:Democracies don't go to war with other countries they consider democratic, too.
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Jan 30, 2015 13:24
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Kafka Esq. posted:Yes, Russia and Ukraine kind of blew this old chestnut open for this generation. That's why you retroactively consider one of them not a "real" democracy.
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Jan 30, 2015 13:39
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Russia hasn't been a democracy for a while now.
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Jan 30, 2015 13:42
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katlington posted:Russia hasn't been a democracy for a while now.
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Jan 30, 2015 15:22
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It's not a real democracy, unless you can choose between a pro-Israel right party and a pro-Israel right party with a different name.
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Jan 30, 2015 15:25
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False equivalence is a hell of a drug.
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Jan 30, 2015 20:07
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crabcakes66 posted:False equivalence is a hell of a drug. The only real democracy is the one that reaches the result I agree with.
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Jan 30, 2015 20:11
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Disinterested posted:It's not a logical fallacy to point out that there is a qualitative difference between, for example: And its not as if "No true Scotsman" is a common fallacy and there was a recent event regarding Scotsmen and democracy which could be combined into a terrible joke. That would never happen in a thread posted in the Debate and Discussion forums on the comedy website SomethingAwful.com.
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Jan 30, 2015 20:15
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Kafka Esq. posted:Yes, Russia and Ukraine kind of blew this old chestnut open for this generation. I'm pretty sure both say the other isn't democratic, QED  oh and: F35: actually it's about ethics in imperialism and nucular armageddon suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Jan 30, 2015 |
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Jan 30, 2015 21:32
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Kafka Esq. posted:My mind immediately jumps to the gated community that is America's presidential election. 
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Jan 30, 2015 22:21
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Da, Putin and Whatshisname seem like two very capable and popular leaders.
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Jan 30, 2015 22:24
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blowfish posted:Da, Putin and Whatshisname seem like two very capable and popular leaders. We all know that Medvedev is just a human-shaped placeholder to allow Putin to get around term limits. All he needs to do is stay hydrated and make sure his nutrient drip doesn't fall out, and he's eminently qualified for his job.
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Jan 30, 2015 22:41
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katlington posted:Russia hasn't been a democracy for a while now. People say this about the US too which is a great illustration along with the back and forth on this page on why no true Scotsman arguments are really dumb and meaningless. Chuu posted:When I was taking a political science class circa 2001, I remember that there was some movement behind the theory that spreading democracy was a good thing because democracies do not go to war with each other. I am curious if that theory is now completely dead, or if they just redefined the meaning of war or democracy. This is just a general point I make a lot but the problem is that historical analysis has a huge sample size problem, when you get down to it finding examples in history that are more than superficially similar is rare. Which is why it's good at explanation but terrible at prediction. Those small differences really do matter. A claim that democracies don't go to war is nonsense to begin with. It's like picking up a coin and saying it will always land head s because that's what happened the first time you flipped it.
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Jan 30, 2015 23:06
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That, and the whole trope is predicated on the existence of liberal democracies in Europe who had other reasons to be with the Americans other than "we voted, and the people did not like going to war with another people that vote!"
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Jan 30, 2015 23:15
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tsa posted:People say this about the US too which is a great illustration along with the back and forth on this page on why no true Scotsman arguments are really dumb and meaningless.
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Jan 30, 2015 23:39
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You're right. The Russian democracy is much more lively and diverse.
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Jan 31, 2015 01:43
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 Cippalippus posted:You're right. The Russian democracy is much more lively and diverse. I'm just going to assume the red text that someone bought you was totally justified.
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Jan 31, 2015 03:49
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crabcakes66 posted:I'm just going to assume the red text that someone bought you was totally justified. His thing is that he thinks being an economic leftist makes insane bigotry and blind spots OK.
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Jan 31, 2015 03:53
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Is that ice build up?
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Jan 31, 2015 03:58
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KomradeX posted:Is that ice build up? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McKinley_Climatic_Laboratory
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Jan 31, 2015 04:21
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Mazz posted:Can you give an example of this? That isn't mass media related (not horribly slanted or spun out of proportion)? Genuinely curious. Not a protest, but the modern version of Gulf War Syndrome is directly the result of asshats thinking things like "Separating your trash is a thing for liberal hippy tree-huggers, just burn everything!". Or maybe burning everything in one big pit in spite of being provided specialized incinerators and trash separation instructions is a protest. GhostofJohnMuir posted:I've spoken to people in the New Orleans area who on one hand recognize that their homes are slowly sinking into the sea and that oil and natural gas extraction and related activity are the root cause, but on the other hand they are in miserable poverty and that oil and natural gas extraction is their only means of subsistence. On the balance most of them favored policies that would encourage further extraction, not policies that would help to preserve their community long term because they have families they have to feed right now. A lot of people tried to obfuscate the link between oil and natural gas extraction to prevent the cognitive dissonance of choosing their own long term destruction, but many were surprisingly clear eyed about the choice they were making. To be fair, without that extraction, their communities would already not exist because there would be no driving industry to build/grow/sustain the community in the first place. My Q-Face fucked around with this message at 14:01 on Jan 31, 2015 |
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Jan 31, 2015 13:59
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KomradeX posted:Is that ice build up? Yes, but from a wind tunnel rather than flight activity. I don't know how fighters handle ice, but I suspect not very well. In flight, that plane would probably be pretty hosed by then.
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Jan 31, 2015 14:28
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My Q-Face posted:Not a protest, but the modern version of Gulf War Syndrome is directly the result of asshats thinking things like "Separating your trash is a thing for liberal hippy tree-huggers, just burn everything!". Or maybe burning everything in one big pit in spite of being provided specialized incinerators and trash separation instructions is a protest. Hey guy, gently caress you, not everyone with burn-pit related issues was stationed on a super fob.
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Jan 31, 2015 16:54
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Deuce posted:Yes, but from a wind tunnel rather than flight activity. So pretty much the F35 can experience a lot of ice build up which would probably make it crash (of its able to even take off)
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Jan 31, 2015 20:01
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KomradeX posted:So pretty much the F35 can experience a lot of ice build up which would probably make it crash (of its able to even take off) Yes but this is true of any aircraft.
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Jan 31, 2015 20:12
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KomradeX posted:So pretty much the F35 can experience a lot of ice build up which would probably make it crash (of its able to even take off) I don't think this is some magical F35 specific problem.
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Jan 31, 2015 20:12
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