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What an odd place for this thread to be in... young people getting all  about old and disabled people going too fast and creating a dangerous environment.
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Jan 30, 2015 07:18
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Grundulum posted:What an odd place for this thread to be in... young people getting all They have a lot more kinetic energy than us, which isn't safe! 
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Jan 30, 2015 07:25
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Baronjutter posted:Here's a topic I'm interested if other cities have dealt with: Mobility scooters. It seems to me that a speed limiter is a perfect solution to this problem. There's no reason that a mobility scooter needs to go faster than a normal walking pace, and there's many safety reasons for why they shouldn't.
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Jan 30, 2015 07:40
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Kaal posted:It seems to me that a speed limiter is a perfect solution to this problem. There's no reason that a mobility scooter needs to go faster than a normal walking pace, and there's many safety reasons for why they shouldn't. someone's obviously never gotten a golf cart up on two wheels going around a corner at 30 mph.
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Jan 30, 2015 07:47
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What is truly wonderful is that those 45kph scooters are allowed on roads with a 80kph speed limit. Typical rural two lane roads with no place to overtake without going into oncoming traffic for dozens of kilometers. So you have some senile person in their 45 kph "car" with no understanding of the rules of the road (because they are old enough that they can just claim the license for these kind of vehicles without any test, grandfathered in). Then a line of increasingly frustrated cars behind it until the 5th car decides gently caress it i'm going to overtake this thing which involves driving against traffic and oh god there is a truck i didn't see ... They cause a lot of dangerous situations. Like i mentioned a few pages back, if you hear a radio report of someone driving against traffic on a motorway you have about even chances of it being "a confused elderly person in their 45kph car". Even worse if it is a young person because these things cost as much as a small car so the only reason you have one is because you are incapable of getting a license. E: There is a even worse vehicle though. Under local rules you can take a car and have it speed limited to 25kph and now you get to drive a 2 ton vehicle with no license and no MOT. NihilismNow fucked around with this message at 09:05 on Jan 30, 2015 |
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Jan 30, 2015 09:02
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NihilismNow posted:E: There is a even worse vehicle though. Under local rules you can take a car and have it speed limited to 25kph and now you get to drive a 2 ton vehicle with no license and no MOT.  Here in Sweden, I'd heard they were used a lot by people who got their moped rights grandfathered from the old system, and managed to drink themselves out of their regular B driver's license.
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Jan 30, 2015 10:41
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Kaal posted:It seems to me that a speed limiter is a perfect solution to this problem. There's no reason that a mobility scooter needs to go faster than a normal walking pace, and there's many safety reasons for why they shouldn't. What's a normal walking pace, then?
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Jan 30, 2015 17:10
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http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2007/05/walking-speed-in-different-cities.html Walking speeds by city
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Jan 30, 2015 17:22
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Nintendo Kid posted:What's a normal walking pace, then? Whatever the local statute considers to be the arbitrary walking pace. 5 kph / 3.1 mph seems like a good bet, which would coincidentally be right in the middle of the list that Baronjutter posted (12.96s to travel 18m).
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Jan 30, 2015 19:41
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Kaal posted:Whatever the local statute considers to be the arbitrary walking pace. 5 kph / 3.1 mph seems like a good bet, which would coincidentally be right in the middle of the list that Baronjutter posted (12.96s to travel 18m). Yeah that's a ridiculous limit to set for the thing to move at all times, then.
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Jan 30, 2015 19:43
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NihilismNow posted:E: There is a even worse vehicle though. Under local rules you can take a car and have it speed limited to 25kph and now you get to drive a 2 ton vehicle with no license and no MOT. What? This is in the Netherlands? Do you have a source for that... now I'm curious.
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Jan 30, 2015 20:43
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I think it's this: http://www.z24.nl/bijzaken/belastingvrij-rijden-zonder-rijbewijs-bouw-je-auto-om-tot-brommobiel-465507 And it's 45 km/h, in fact. It was in the news earlier this year when someone caught wind of this, before that almost nobody knew this was possible.
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Jan 30, 2015 20:59
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That is utterly terrifying, and I have so many questions. Is it legal to drive in a limited car if they're drunk? Are they required to have insurance? License plates? Does the car need to pass inspection? What happens if they clandestinely disable the speed limiter?
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Jan 30, 2015 22:59
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Cichlidae posted:That is utterly terrifying, and I have so many questions. Is it legal to drive in a limited car if they're drunk? quote:Are they required to have insurance? quote:License plates? quote:Does the car need to pass inspection? quote:What happens if they clandestinely disable the speed limiter? Now, the article that was linked by Entropist said that the law has been changed since Jan 1st. From this month forward, you need a more proper license, a moped license isn't enough anymore. You still don't need a full car license, but some special one that's also used for people who only drive on public roads with farm tractors. A car traders organisation is saying that this isn't enough, and there should be regular inspections on these cars, while owners should pay the same taxes as everyone who owns a 'real' car.
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Jan 30, 2015 23:25
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45 is still really loving fast. I could see if they were limited to 25 or something, but 45? That ends up being about the average speed of regular traffic in town and is more than fast enough to wreck everyone around's poo poo.
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Jan 30, 2015 23:48
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Carbon dioxide posted:No. It's not legal to drive a moped when drunk. drat, it's even illegal to ride a bike when drunk. And in that case you better have other ID than just your car driving license on you, because they can confiscate your car driving license for drunk cycling.
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Jan 30, 2015 23:48
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Well, everyone cycles home after a night at the pub (I mean, you have to be mad to try driving a car), so as long as you just try and Act Normal  the police will most likely ignore you. Not an absolute certainty, they can fine you or worse, especially in big cities.
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Jan 31, 2015 00:48
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Some quick notes from the linked article: until 2010 there were exactly 3 such registered vehicles in the country. Then it "exploded" to several hundred/close to one thousand new ones per year. And once legislators got wind of it they changed it. It used to be that persons over 18 could drive a tractor without a license and persons 16 or 17 could do it with a so called T driver's license. As of January 1st this year, the T license has now been expanded to be required by all drivers, and is now also required by drivers of such vehicles. So yeah, it was bat-poo poo crazy, but it's fixed now. Also, fun fact: cars also had to have their back (and presumably also passenger's side) seats removed, because it is illegal for such a vehicle to be used to transport passengers. e: welp, missed a few posts. I do have a little extra info so I guess I'm not pure scum.
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Jan 31, 2015 01:06
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Nintendo Kid posted:Yeah that's a ridiculous limit to set for the thing to move at all times, then. That's not a problem, but then they should be barred from sidewalks just like all sorts of faster-moving vehicles (bicycles, skateboards, rollerblades, segways, etc.) and instead should be using the mixed use lanes. It really is one or the other. In my opinion, given the intended usage of mobility scooters, it would be much wiser to have them using the sidewalks at an appropriate speed, rather than being pushed into the high-speed mixed use lanes and dealing with traffic. Putting in a speed limiter would allow them to do so. Most of the pedestrians of the world get around just fine at 5 kph or less. Kaal fucked around with this message at 07:33 on Jan 31, 2015 |
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Jan 31, 2015 07:14
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What sort of things can be done to prevent people using a car park as a thoroughfare, which won't also inconvenience the legitimate users of the car park?
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Jan 31, 2015 07:59
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poo poo, 40kph is the school zone limit here. The limit for most residential streets has been dropped to 50 (it used to be 60) while it is still 60 for some thoroughfares. (It can be also 70 or 80, usually in clearway zones), rural highways are 100 and freeways are 110. 110 is pretty low by global standards, but in Australia, the older sections of freeways that were duplicated in the 70s are pretty poo poo so they would take a fair amount of remedial work (I'm thinking in particular of the stretch between Seymour and Euroa, or the section just to the east of Goulburn) to make them safe enough where I'd be happy bumping up the general freeway limit to 120 or 130. Also, not all intersections are grade separated. Most of the important interchanges are, but there are a few local access roads that connect directly with freeways (which means they're not really freeways). My comfortable riding speed on a bike is 25-30 (obviously more than that downhill or with a good tailwind) which is too fast for footpaths, yet not enough for roads with heavy traffic, so it is a issue. Mobility scooters, well, anecdotal data point, my grandfather got one after he finally relinquished his drivers license in his mid 80s (he was an awful driver), and he was happy with that because he could get around town on it. Then a P-plater who wasn't paying attention knocked him off it crossing the road and he died a few weeks later in the hospice from complications due to the fractures.  They're a good option for keeping the elderly/invalid mobile around town, but they're in a really awkward spot as far as planning infrastructure and road laws goes.
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Jan 31, 2015 08:24
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Lobsterpillar posted:What sort of things can be done to prevent people using a car park as a thoroughfare, which won't also inconvenience the legitimate users of the car park? Well the solution to that sort of problem starts with licensing and mandatory driver education, which is out when it comes to mobility scooters since the entire point is that anyone can use them. If you've got a motorized vehicle that's traveling at 20-30 mph then it's a moped and there's already laws for that (which keep them off the sidewalks and the mixed use lanes). If you've got a vehicle that's traveling at 5-20 mph then it's a personal mobility device and there's laws for that too (which also keep them off the sidewalks). If it's a medical device intended to aid in normal ambulation, then the ADA has a variety of requirements and provisions for them, which allows for them to be on a sidewalk so long as it can be done safely. It's fairly clear that a speed limiter would be the appropriate solution here to enable that. The alternative is that mobility scooters are going to start getting punted onto mixed use lanes by municipalities as they get more popular. To my mind, this issue is simply an example of the greater need to develop mixed use lanes. Kaal fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Jan 31, 2015 |
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Jan 31, 2015 18:06
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Kaal posted:That's not a problem, but then they should be barred from sidewalks just like all sorts of faster-moving vehicles (bicycles, skateboards, rollerblades, segways, etc.) and instead should be using the mixed use lanes. It really is one or the other. In my opinion, given the intended usage of mobility scooters, it would be much wiser to have them using the sidewalks at an appropriate speed, rather than being pushed into the high-speed mixed use lanes and dealing with traffic. Putting in a speed limiter would allow them to do so. Most of the pedestrians of the world get around just fine at 5 kph or less. Yeah but it's bullshit to have a speed limiter installed when 90% of the time the people using it won't be on the sidewalk.
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Jan 31, 2015 18:18
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Nintendo Kid posted:Yeah but it's bullshit to have a speed limiter installed when 90% of the time the people using it won't be on the sidewalk. Again, that doesn't have to be a problem, but it would lead to the devices being banned from sidewalks entirely, regardless of the medical benefits of the device. And people who wanted to use them for normal ambulation would be forced back to using wheelchairs. Cities aren't going to accept the liability of permitting road vehicles onto sidewalks, however occasionally. And it would be a real pity to see these devices treated the same way as most other personal mobility devices. Broadly speaking, you seem to be thinking about a mobility scooter as simply being a low-powered moped, but for most of the people using these devices this is not how they are used. Kaal fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Jan 31, 2015 |
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Jan 31, 2015 18:24
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Kaal posted:Again, that doesn't have to be a problem, but it would lead to the devices being banned from sidewalks entirely, regardless of the medical benefits of the device. And people who wanted to use them for normal ambulation would be forced back to using wheelchairs. Cities aren't going to accept the liability of permitting road vehicles onto sidewalks, however occasionally. And it would be a real pity to see these devices treated the same way as most other personal mobility devices. Broadly speaking, you seem to be thinking about a mobility scooter as simply being a low-powered moped, but for most of the people using these devices this is not how they are used. There is no reasonable cause to prevent them from going as fast as somebody running, especially when most people with them don't live in cities with crowded sidewalks.
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Jan 31, 2015 19:01
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Presto posted:Christ, closing the Parkway? Might as well just shut down the city at that point and give everyone the week off. It's the week between Christmas and New Year's, so most of us will be off at that time anyway. I'm fine with it; that bridge has to have another bridge under it to catch falling pieces. As they would say in Pittsburgh, it needs fixed.
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Jan 31, 2015 20:17
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Cichlidae posted:That is utterly terrifying, and I have so many questions. Is it legal to drive in a limited car if they're drunk? Are they required to have insurance? License plates? Does the car need to pass inspection? What happens if they clandestinely disable the speed limiter? Just a quick note, these kinds of mopeds with car bodies are super-popular with high school students in Italy, Rome especially. Apparently the license needed for mopeds is obtainable from the age of 14. Despite kids riding them in the middle of the road along with all the other Roman traffic, I don't believe you need insurance. Just a death wish.
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Jan 31, 2015 21:22
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PkerUNO posted:Just a quick note, these kinds of mopeds with car bodies are super-popular with high school students in Italy, Rome especially. Apparently the license needed for mopeds is obtainable from the age of 14. Despite kids riding them in the middle of the road along with all the other Roman traffic, I don't believe you need insurance. Just a death wish. To be fair, a death wish is what you need to drive anything, anywhere in Rome.
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Jan 31, 2015 22:24
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Yad Rock posted:It's the week between Christmas and New Year's, so most of us will be off at that time anyway. I'm fine with it; that bridge has to have another bridge under it to catch falling pieces. As they would say in Pittsburgh, it needs fixed. I know. I used to drive under it a few times a year. It was interesting to watch the slow-motion disaster in progress over the decades. First there was just the bridge. Then bits started falling off, so they wrapped it with nets. But then the nets stopped working, so they had to build the under-bridge to catch the bits that made it through the nets. It was like watching one of those "Life After People" shows where they show how the infrastructure would gradually break down.
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Feb 1, 2015 04:04
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Nintendo Kid posted:There is no reasonable cause to prevent them from going as fast as somebody running, especially when most people with them don't live in cities with crowded sidewalks. You could make the same argument for a skateboard or a bicycle, but those are also routinely barred from using sidewalks. Fundamentally, sidewalks are regulatorily-limited to people moving at slow speeds. If you want to go fast, then you're expected to move into the appropriate lane.
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Feb 1, 2015 04:07
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Kaal posted:You could make the same argument for a skateboard or a bicycle, but those are also routinely barred from using sidewalks. Kaal posted:Fundamentally, sidewalks are regulatorily-limited to people moving at slow speeds. If you want to go fast, then you're expected to move into the appropriate lane. Yeah we totally make people who jog or run get in the street. 
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Feb 1, 2015 04:18
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I don't know why this is such a pet issue for you, perhaps you could clarify. In any case, state laws are increasingly taking notice of scooters and other devices, and are incorporating them into the existing principles of law. In many areas the scooters are being barred from sidewalks, and riders being ticketed, when the vehicle's maximum rated speed exceeds the local limits (which are invariably between 5-10 mph). Since the scooters often also do not meet the roadway requirements to be in the bike lanes or the car lanes, their users are unable to use them at all. It's a real issue for people with ambulatory disabilities, and one that merits more than a laissez faire response by the manufacturers. Make of it what you will.
Kaal fucked around with this message at 06:56 on Feb 1, 2015 |
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Feb 1, 2015 06:52
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Kaal posted:I don't know why this is such a pet issue for you Because the suggestion is moronic? And based on a "problem" that barely exists? Unless you expect there to be an outbreak of non-disabled people buying old people mobility devices just to gently caress with people on sidewalks. Kaal posted:In any case, state laws are increasingly taking notice of scooters and other devices, and are incorporating them into the existing principles of law. In many areas the scooters are being barred from sidewalks, and riders being ticketed, when the vehicle's maximum rated speed exceeds the local limits (which are invariably between 5-10 mph). Since the scooters often also do not meet the roadway requirements to be in the bike lanes or the car lanes, their users are unable to use them at all. It's a real issue for people with ambulatory disabilities, and one that merits more than a laissez faire response by the manufacturers. Make of it what you will. Where exactly are they being barred? I've seen them used in real cities just fine, my aunt in Philadelphia relies on one to get to the store for instance. You seem, frankly, to be conflating motorized wheelchairs and mobility scooters with plain old mopeds and motor scooters. I've certainly heard about those being banned from sidewalks but that just makes sense because it's typically in places where bicyclists are expected to use the road due to similar speeds. Edit: I went looking and the old people mobility scooters usually go no faster than 6 mph, with very high end ones able to go up to like 9 mph (with corresponding reduction in range from a normal 20 miles). I really don't see why these need speed limiters when they normally go no faster than a jogger. Nintendo Kid fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 1, 2015 20:12
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Kaal posted:You could make the same argument for a skateboard or a bicycle, but those are also routinely barred from using sidewalks. Fundamentally, sidewalks are regulatorily-limited to people moving at slow speeds. If you want to go fast, then you're expected to move into the appropriate lane. Last time my dad was in the US for work, he almost go hit by a car while walking on a sidewalk. The hotel staff then told him "The sidewalks are there to make the place look European. Nobody actually expects people to use them".
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Feb 1, 2015 20:18
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So, who wants to skate to work? http://www.wired.com/2015/01/edmonton-freezeway-ice-skating/
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Feb 1, 2015 23:56
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Great idea! That's how we used to get around in the Netherlands, back when we had winters and the canals would freeze over.
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Feb 2, 2015 00:24
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Ika posted:Last time my dad was in the US for work, he almost go hit by a car while walking on a sidewalk. The hotel staff then told him "The sidewalks are there to make the place look European. Nobody actually expects people to use them". Oooooo a sidewalk, how continental!
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Feb 2, 2015 05:04
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Ika posted:Last time my dad was in the US for work, he almost go hit by a car while walking on a sidewalk. The hotel staff then told him "The sidewalks are there to make the place look European. Nobody actually expects people to use them". So, Houston then.
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Feb 2, 2015 13:46
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I'm working from home as snow pours down outside, designing new interchanges. This is my favorite kind of work. We've got some concepts that would build a new Connecticut River crossing north of the Bulkeley and then essentially shift I-84 up there, replacing the current freeway with a boulevard and returning the Bulkeley to local traffic. I have about a dozen concepts for how to make it work, traffic-wise. Trying not to think of the inevitable "but that would cost more, so we can't do it" backlash from the DOT. I had a pretty in-depth discussion at the latest public meeting about how backwards things are at the State. 
Cichlidae fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 15:18
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Speaking of new interchanges, this project is finally coming along nicely: http://www.state.nj.us/transportation/commuter/roads/rt295/ It started out like this:  With traffic going south on 295 having to take the giant curve and traffic going north having to merge into the 42/76 roadway with heavy weaving for traffic getting on/off there. It'll finally look like this:  And as of now they've removed the weaving from the northbound entirely, with ramps put in to/from 42/76, as one of the first steps in alleviating the problem.
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Feb 2, 2015 17:23
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