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Wasn't Morocco supplying saltpetre to most of the world at one point?
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Jan 30, 2015 23:59
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Rabhadh posted:Early gunpowder is really expensive though, unreliable too. And difficult to store. If you transported serpentine powder to the battlefield you'd have to remix it because the different components would settle out.
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Jan 31, 2015 00:00
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The Lone Badger posted:If you transported serpentine powder to the battlefield you'd have to remix it because the different components would settle out.
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Jan 31, 2015 00:04
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HEY GAL posted:You'd carry seed grain to a siege too. That's certainly some forward planning. Who plants/harvests it? The soldiers? Or whatver peasants are still hanging around the siegeworks?
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Jan 31, 2015 00:17
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sullat posted:That's certainly some forward planning. Who plants/harvests it? The soldiers? Or whatver peasants are still hanging around the siegeworks?
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Jan 31, 2015 00:19
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Chinese states certainly drafted their peasants.
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Jan 31, 2015 01:14
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During the siege of Nanjing during the Taiping rebellion the city was so depopulated that the defenders started planting rice inside the walls and could probably have fed themselves indefinitely.
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Jan 31, 2015 01:38
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Phobophilia posted:Crossbows and muskets fill a similar niche, huge blocks of recently drafted peasants, that have been drilled for a few weeks, firing in mass formation. More readily available than hand archers who have been training for years. The idea that crossbowmen and musketeers were not professionals is kinda ridiculous. The reason these weapons took over was that they were generally very effective within their range, particularly against the increasingly well armored infantry and cavalry. Archery does not usually end up working the way Total War games would have you think.
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Jan 31, 2015 02:01
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Panzeh posted:The idea that crossbowmen and musketeers were not professionals is kinda ridiculous. The reason these weapons took over was that they were generally very effective within their range, particularly against the increasingly well armored infantry and cavalry. Edit: And the muskets too I guess.
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Jan 31, 2015 02:46
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HEY GAL posted:Of course, it doesn't take the kind of lifetime commitment that being a knight would. It's kind of funny that a man who's dedicated his entire life (and lots of money) to being the elite of the elite can have his poo poo wrecked by a bunch of ordinary people with a length of ash, a few ounces of steel, and a good idea. Didn't the Catholic church try to ban the crossbow as inhumane for basically that reason, or is that an urban legend?
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Jan 31, 2015 02:52
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Technology > skill. Professional soldiers > lifetime warriors.
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Jan 31, 2015 02:53
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Cythereal posted:Didn't the Catholic church try to ban the crossbow as inhumane for basically that reason, or is that an urban legend? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Council_of_the_Lateran (Says the specific canon is disputed) http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran2.asp (Says the canon is only for wagers, its canon 29) So I'm a little undecided about it and hopefully someone else can chime in to relate more about it.
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Jan 31, 2015 03:17
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HEY GAL posted:Of course, it doesn't take the kind of lifetime commitment that being a knight would. It's kind of funny that a man who's dedicated his entire life (and lots of money) to being the elite of the elite can have his poo poo wrecked by a bunch of ordinary people with a length of ash, a few ounces of steel, and a good idea. Well, they had already had a good run for a couple of hundred of years.
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Jan 31, 2015 07:27
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Who was the guy who after looking at damaged bombers returning from the continent was like, no lets not uparmor the places on the plane that are damaged because obviously since the plane returned those are places where they are more likely to survive being damaged, let's armor the leftover places though? vvvv: ty Frostwerks fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Jan 31, 2015 |
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Jan 31, 2015 07:45
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Frostwerks posted:Who was the guy who after looking at damaged bombers returning from the continent was like, no lets not uparmor the places on the plane that are damaged because obviously since the plane returned those are places where they are more likely to survive being damaged, let's armor the leftover places though? Abraham Wald
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Jan 31, 2015 07:48
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Grand Prize Winner posted:Question about crossbows - were they more difficult maintain than early firearms? To an outsider's eye they look more mechanically complex. And if so, then you might not need all that much training to shoot one, but to keep it in working order on campaign you'd need to have some experience. That combined with their construction (more complicated than late-medieval bows, right?) would lent itself towards a state specializing in them. Why it was Genoa instead of somewhere else, though? There's a couple of technical points. The string on a crossbow and a bow (ramie and rawhide) in general are vulnerable to moisture (linen and silk less so). The enormous # of a crossbow needs a thick string to be safe and anything that could make it fail, will make it fail hard. The construction of a crossbow trigger and the cranequin takes some pretty advanced metal working skills and is comparably slow and capital intense (think of skills required for locks of later firearms). In case of a composite prod, you're facing the drying times, which increase exponentially with material thickness (it's already almost a year for a 13mm thick composite bow), which is most likely the reason why a cross-section like this shows so many thin layers (lay one, wait 2 week, next one, etc.)  You can craft a longbow in one day and it just takes the airdried stave, a little glue and some cow horns for the tips. If you think about how expensive the ones with cranequins most likely were, you'd want to put it into the hands of a professional. Here's some dudes shooting at a pavise. Can you spot the 2000# crossbow? http://armborst.forum24.se/armborst-post-15.html
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Jan 31, 2015 09:29
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Did non-water-soluble composite bows ever come into use, or were they too obsolete by the time better glues were invented?
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Jan 31, 2015 09:33
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Water was never a real problem, unlike some armchair literature would claim. You carry the bow in a bag, like the romans carried the scutum, which is made with the same glues. Birchbark is also a great way to protect the bow. Check out this pic from an 8th century turk grave from Khazakstan. Birchbark all over. The quiver that you see in the upper section is also a very successful model that was first found in a gravesite in a cave in northern Mongolia, the Arcat Del grave. This type of quiver was in use for almost 500 years all the way to Europe. The leather lying on the man is the bowquiver. The dude was also a lefty, he has the bow strung and ready for use. Power Khan fucked around with this message at 09:44 on Jan 31, 2015 |
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Jan 31, 2015 09:38
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So, crossbow isn't the point and click adventure that didn't require that much strength and skill?
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Jan 31, 2015 09:48
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Still reading Ivan's War. Holy poo poo, it's amazing how incredibly DIRE the situation was for the USSR during 1941-1942. I mean, yes, everyone knows that - but when a book goes into it detail by detail it's mindblowing they managed to recover like they did. The sheer amount of political meddling and terrible commanders getting thousands of people killed bothers the poo poo out of me even when we're talking about something that happened eight decades ago. What a great book. On the topic of bows, regarding Lars Andersen's video (and I guess this is mostly adressed to JaucheCharly) I know the *SEE THIS IS ACTUAL TRUE ARCHERY BY ~ MASTER ARCHERS ~* part of the video is kinda stupid, but is the bit about holding arrows in the hand/back quivers being anachronistic real? I mean, he did show some period pieces that depicted this. 
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Jan 31, 2015 10:10
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JcDent posted:So, crossbow isn't the point and click adventure that didn't require that much strength and skill? Not an expert or anything. Reloading a crossbow can be straightforward but not necessarily easy. One of the simpler ways to reload was for the crossbow to have a metal stirrup that you shove you foot in, then pull back on the string so I'm not sure how it compares with the strength required to draw a big honking war bow but it's certainly not a trivial task. Crossbows with even greater draw weights required mechanical assistance to reload them, which didn't make them any easier to use as a weapon for the masses. That said, a crossbow with a lighter draw weight makes for a decent weapon to arm people in a situation where noncombatants are going to get involved. While we're on the topic of crossbows, Chinese crossbows interest me. We have examples of various types but the weird one is the repeating crossbows. I know they had standard crossbows but the repeating crossbow tends to be brought up as one of those ancient Chinese marvels. Any idea if there were actually effective repeating crossbows because the videos I've seen show them to be hilariously weak.
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Jan 31, 2015 11:10
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Azran posted:Still reading Ivan's War. Holy poo poo, it's amazing how incredibly DIRE the situation was for the USSR during 1941-1942. I mean, yes, everyone knows that - but when a book goes into it detail by detail it's mindblowing they managed to recover like they did. The sheer amount of political meddling and terrible commanders getting thousands of people killed bothers the poo poo out of me even when we're talking about something that happened eight decades ago. What a great book. Just got done with it. I still can't fathom how they actually recovered, considering how much lovely nutrition, a faulty/sabotaged supply situation, poor leadership and lack of proper equipment fucks over a soldier. To some extent, it perpetuates the myth that the convinced and determined communist patriot cannot be defeated, which long exposure to propaganda has almost rendered too silly - but there does seems to be a uniquely Russian will at play. That, and the willingness of Soviet leaders to throw so many people in front of German panzer, that the sticky goo their bodies are ground into gums up their machinery.
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Jan 31, 2015 12:17
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Azran posted:Still reading Ivan's War. Holy poo poo, it's amazing how incredibly DIRE the situation was for the USSR during 1941-1942. I mean, yes, everyone knows that - but when a book goes into it detail by detail it's mindblowing they managed to recover like they did. The sheer amount of political meddling and terrible commanders getting thousands of people killed bothers the poo poo out of me even when we're talking about something that happened eight decades ago. What a great book. The thing about holding the arrows either in the bowhand or drawhand is a real thing that is described in manuals and can be seen in many different illustrations. Dudes that shoot on horsearcher competitions used that for a long time. Though you could ask yourself if the technique of e.g. Kassai would work with broadheads, it's definitely not forgotten. The sport seems to be somewhat popular with the people that can afford it, but only in recent times. The part about back quivers is wrong, there's enough evidence that they were used in Europe, although only to transport the arrows, but not in battle. Hip quivers do a little better if you're running. These short quivers that only seem to cover 1/3 of the arrow have some kind of folded rag inside that holds the arrows in place. At least that's true Manchu and Korean quivers. Having the arrows on the right side of the bow is also hogwash if your a righty mediterranean, as the bows on the Mary Rose attest. They have the peck marks of the arrow passing on the left side. The illustrations that he gives can be explained by the artist not knowing about shooting, or the desire to show the unbroken shaft to the observer. Ivan's war is a good book.
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Jan 31, 2015 12:54
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JaucheCharly posted:Though you could ask yourself if the technique of e.g. Kassai would work with broadheads, it's definitely not forgotten. Weren't war arrows mostly bodkin heads anyway?
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Jan 31, 2015 12:57
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Tias posted:That, and the willingness of Soviet leaders to throw so many people in front of German panzer, that the sticky goo their bodies are ground into gums up their machinery. Mind you, if this thread is any indication it doesn't really take all that much to gum up a German panzer.
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Jan 31, 2015 13:12
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The Lone Badger posted:Weren't war arrows mostly bodkin heads anyway? Depends what you're shooting. I wouldn't try the trick of pulling a bodkin head forcefully through my fist. Not every head has rounded edges there and they're somewhat sharp.
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Jan 31, 2015 13:21
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The Lone Badger posted:Weren't war arrows mostly bodkin heads anyway? Not in W. Europe, as far as we know. Instead, broadheads are more common, with one particular type (type 16) being the type used for armour piercing in particular. Here's a little post from the Royal Armouries kn the subject: http://www.royalarmouries.org/what-we-do/research/analytical-projects/armour-piercing-arrowheads
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Jan 31, 2015 16:42
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I'd like to revive an interesting little side discussion from a few pages back about lost knowledge. My two favorite examples in the military realm are cement and the cure for scurvy. Around 400 AD the techniques Roman engineers had developed for creating hydraulic cement were lost. For the next 1300 years everyone had to use masonry and mortar that dissolved when it rained if they wanted to build anything big and tough. It wasn't until the 1750's that John Smeaton rediscovered a way to formulate a concrete that would harden underwater and resist the elements. In 1747 James Lind, in one of the first controlled medical experiments in history, discovered that citrus fruits could cure men who were ill with scurvy and prevented healthy men from contracting the ailment. In 1790 the Royal Navy adopted the idea and lemons became a part of every sailor's ration. By 1911 members of Scott's Antarctic expedition are dropping left and right from scurvy, and nobody knows why. The knowledge had been lost through a series of misunderstandings, bad guesses, and general ignorance of biology and chemistry. In 1907 Axel Holst and Theodor Frølich accidentally rediscovered that citrus cures scurvy in guinea pigs but it wasn't until Albert Szent-Györgyi discovered Vitamin C in 1930 that the cure for scurvy was firmly back in the scientific mainstream.
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Jan 31, 2015 19:58
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Around 400 AD the techniques Roman engineers had developed for creating hydraulic cement were lost. For the next 1300 years everyone had to use masonry and mortar that dissolved when it rained if they wanted to build anything big and tough. It wasn't until the 1750's that John Smeaton rediscovered a way to formulate a concrete that would harden underwater and resist the elements. I don't think either of these examples really fall into the category of "lost knowledge". Roman cement was mixed using a particular kind of sand that happened to be produce good results (Hell, better results). But strip the Romans of that particular ingredient, and nobody would be able to tell you how to reproduce those results. James Lind has a similar story, where he found some connection in citrus fruits and scurvy, but failed to understand the mechanism by which they were connected. He also believed that ventilation and exercise would prevent scurvy, and most of the Royal Navy administration believed so as well. It's hard to blame Lind, he couldn't possibly have discovered Vitamin C on his own, but the citrus connection was viewed as a minor component of the cure for scurvy, even during his own time. The British used lemons at first, but switched to limes because they were MADE IN BRITAIN('s colonies) in the 19th century. Their lime juice was actually devoid of vitamin C due to bad storage, but ocean travelling times had decreased with steam ships and so nobody was the wiser. Again, nobody understood the process under which their knowledge was founded. Slim Jim Pickens fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Jan 31, 2015 |
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Jan 31, 2015 20:32
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:Again, nobody understood the process under which their knowledge was founded.
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Jan 31, 2015 21:25
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I would argue modern nations practice ritualized combat all the time. Instead of a guy shouting it's now press releases and UN resolutions and sanctions and military exercises.
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Feb 1, 2015 00:08
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BurningStone posted:I would argue modern nations practice ritualized combat all the time. Instead of a guy shouting it's now press releases and UN resolutions and sanctions and military exercises. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ0ue-XGl9c
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Feb 1, 2015 00:10
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God I love the sillyness of British and Commonwealth Military Tradition, especially the weird survival of it in todays modern world. I like to think thousands of years of now if humanity survives and somehow combines into a gestalt biological mechanical entity there will be two manborgs with silly moustaches stiffly marching towards a gate house on a moon somewhere in space.
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Feb 1, 2015 01:17
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HEY GAL posted:these dudes own "You know what I'm going to miss now that we are no longer a colony? The soldiers with the silly hats and the exaggerated marching."
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Feb 1, 2015 01:19
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The handshake at the end is the best. 
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Feb 1, 2015 01:24
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Ok, sometimes it's still a guy shouting.
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Feb 1, 2015 03:41
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HEY GAL posted:these dudes own It's like what you'd get if Hitler's rallies were choreographed by Gilbert and Sullivan and shown on MTV
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Feb 1, 2015 04:13
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Man that looks awesome. Plus, very striking uniforms, though Pakistanis won that particular match in facial hair department. Way more awesome than just two disinterested grunts closing a gate and going back to masturbate to Sasha Grey or smth.
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Feb 1, 2015 06:21
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HEY GAL posted:these dudes own This owns and the narrator seemed way too patronizing about it.
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Feb 2, 2015 00:53
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Rincewind posted:This owns and the narrator seemed way too patronizing about it. These peacocks are ready for a night at the club.
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Feb 2, 2015 12:27
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