Civilization V: Brave New World

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Microplastics: Jul 6, 2007; It's what's for dinner.

Kyte posted:

You could always take a look at the BNW DLL source here and see exactly how it resolves combat. Hell, you could probably mirror the code structure.

CvUnitCombat.cpp looks like the relevant file, plus CvUnit.cpp.

Thanks for this. If I can get my head around it I may give it a shot.

# ? Jan 31, 2015 10:24

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# ? May 29, 2024 13:14

Trivia: Feb 8, 2006; I'm an obtuse man,
so I'll try to be oblique.

I'm going to start another GMR game: 6 players, quick, pangaea, sparse resources.

Currently 4 of the 6 slots are filled. The current players have timezones ranging from +9 GMT to -5 GMT. Turn order will follow time zones. There will be a 24 hour turn timer.

My plan is to use the Civ Drafter to choose the civs semi-randomly. Each player can veto 2 civs. So far Arabia, Spain, England, and China have been vetoed (from the pool of possible civs). Two players abstained from vetoing.

Anyone here want to fill the other 2 slots? If so, what civs do you want to veto?

# ? Jan 31, 2015 10:38

Microplastics: Jul 6, 2007; It's what's for dinner.

Are the other players goons or pubbies? I prefer to play in an insular goony clique :colbert:

# ? Jan 31, 2015 10:47

Platystemon: Feb 13, 2012; BREADS

Trivia posted:

Anyone here want to fill the other 2 slots? If so, what civs do you want to veto?

I�ll bite. Veto Mongolia and Huns.

# ? Jan 31, 2015 11:08

Gort: Aug 18, 2003; Good day what ho cup of tea

Platystemon posted:

Apart from giving a an�mic absolute happiness boost, Meritocracy is terrible because building city connections does not synergise with Liberty.

Liberty is supposed to enable you to settle cities faster, but building those roads takes forever. Unlike Monarchy, you do not get the happiness from it fast enough to counter unhappiness from settling new cities. At best, it allows you to grow them.

It�s a lot of worker‐turns sunk, especially on quick speed where Liberty workers don't actually build roads faster without also having the Pyramids. Liberty civs rarely have enough workers because the capital�s hammers are going into settlers and new cities take many turns to produce a worker. Having to build roads exacerbates that.

Early roads usually don�t even pay for their own maintenance, and gold is another area where Liberty already struggles.

How would I fix it? +2 happiness per city, full stop, is boring, but sufficient. If you still want it to involve roads for whatever reason, make all city connections give +1 gold. Perhaps tie the −5% unhappiness to city connections, because by the time that�s doing anything for you, you do want city connections.

Super Jay Mann posted:

Increasing meritocracy's unhappiness reduction from 5% to 10% would be a good start. 15% would be even better. That alone would make a phenominal difference in how happiness scales as your cities grow.

The worst part about Liberty's relative weakness to Tradition is that Republic is legitimately one of the best policies in the game.

Poizen Jam posted:

Here's a totally well thought out idea that couldn't possibly backfire; each city gives you 1 happiness for every other city it is connected to.

But for real, Liberty could use a couple tweaks. Maybe +2 happiness per city connection, or at least toss in another happiness boost or a policy that ameliorates the tech cost increase from having more cities.

Mod right here you guys

# ? Jan 31, 2015 12:20

Trivia: Feb 8, 2006; I'm an obtuse man,
so I'll try to be oblique.

KKKlean Energy posted:

Are the other players goons or pubbies? I prefer to play in an insular goony clique

I believe all of them are goons, though I can't say for sure whether they use the forums actively any more.

Platystemon posted:

I�ll bite. Veto Mongolia and Huns.

Steam name and timezone?

# ? Jan 31, 2015 17:59

Lord Justice: Jul 24, 2012; "This god whom I created was human-made and madness, like all gods! Woman she was, and only a poor specimen of woman and ego. But I overcame myself, the sufferer; I carried my own ashes to the mountains; I invented a brighter flame for myself. And behold, then this god fled from me!"

Trivia posted:

I'm going to start another GMR game: 6 players, quick, pangaea, sparse resources.

Currently 4 of the 6 slots are filled. The current players have timezones ranging from +9 GMT to -5 GMT. Turn order will follow time zones. There will be a 24 hour turn timer.

My plan is to use the Civ Drafter to choose the civs semi-randomly. Each player can veto 2 civs. So far Arabia, Spain, England, and China have been vetoed (from the pool of possible civs). Two players abstained from vetoing.

Anyone here want to fill the other 2 slots? If so, what civs do you want to veto?

I'll play if there's a slot open. Timezone is UTC -8 Pacific Time. Veto Babylon and Korea. I'm The God Emperor, King of Magi on Steam.

# ? Jan 31, 2015 19:03

Microplastics: Jul 6, 2007; It's what's for dinner.

Trivia posted:

I believe all of them are goons, though I can't say for sure whether they use the forums actively any more.

Suits me. ~~If there's a slot left I'll take it, I'll PM you my steam name.~~ I veto Babylon and Korea. (^^^ jinx!)

I'll wait for the next one then

# ? Jan 31, 2015 19:06

Putin It In Mah ASS: Nov 12, 2003; Omni-gel superlube is great stuff!

Full up? drat, that took all of 5 posts. Any interest around here in another game?

# ? Feb 2, 2015 08:25

Lord Justice: Jul 24, 2012; "This god whom I created was human-made and madness, like all gods! Woman she was, and only a poor specimen of woman and ego. But I overcame myself, the sufferer; I carried my own ashes to the mountains; I invented a brighter flame for myself. And behold, then this god fled from me!"

If someone wants to set it up I'll play.

# ? Feb 2, 2015 09:47

Putin It In Mah ASS: Nov 12, 2003; Omni-gel superlube is great stuff!

I can set one up when I get home tonight, if no one beats me to it. The real challenge: what leaders have not been featured in a GMR game name yet?

# ? Feb 2, 2015 18:00

TooMuchAbstraction: Oct 14, 2012; I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.; Fun Shoe

Putin It In Mah rear end posted:

I can set one up when I get home tonight, if no one beats me to it. The real challenge: what leaders have not been featured in a GMR game name yet?

Run a game with six clones of Shaka. :getin:

# ? Feb 2, 2015 18:02

Microplastics: Jul 6, 2007; It's what's for dinner.

According to my out-of-date steam post, we've had:

Gustavus' Beard
Pacal's Stupid Hat
Askia's insurance fraud
Atilla's Spittoon
Monty's glistening abs
Ashurbanipal�s Trapper Keeper
Boudicca�s Wheelbarrow o� Spears

and I need to add Bismarck's Eppaulettes and Wu's Gongs

So, still plenty to go :P

# ? Feb 2, 2015 18:59

Super Jay Mann: Nov 6, 2008

I've never played multi in Civ 5 before, maybe this is a good opportunity to start.

# ? Feb 2, 2015 19:40

Microplastics: Jul 6, 2007; It's what's for dinner.

It's a lot of fun but can be very slow-going if it's GMR. Here's that steam post if you want to know more.

e: What's the link to that Civ-banner/picker thing. Might as well throw that in there.

Microplastics fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Feb 2, 2015

# ? Feb 2, 2015 19:50

Lord Justice: Jul 24, 2012; "This god whom I created was human-made and madness, like all gods! Woman she was, and only a poor specimen of woman and ego. But I overcame myself, the sufferer; I carried my own ashes to the mountains; I invented a brighter flame for myself. And behold, then this god fled from me!"

I'm not doing anything this Saturday if people want to try and get a live game going. It would be the usual time, 11 AM PST.

# ? Feb 2, 2015 20:29

Platystemon: Feb 13, 2012; BREADS

Putin It In Mah rear end posted:

Full up? drat, that took all of 5 posts. Any interest around here in another game?

Count me in.

KKKlean Energy posted:

e: What's the link to that Civ-banner/picker thing. Might as well throw that in there.

http://www.georgeskleres.com/civ5/

# ? Feb 2, 2015 20:33

Microplastics: Jul 6, 2007; It's what's for dinner.

Lord Justice posted:

I'm not doing anything this Saturday if people want to try and get a live game going. It would be the usual time, 11 AM PST.

Ooooh, that's perfect for me (7pm in the UK) and I have nothing planned, for once.

# ? Feb 2, 2015 20:46

Guildencrantz: May 1, 2012; IM ONE OF THE GOOD ONES

I'd like to set up a GMR game with all three of Gort's mods:

Social Policy Rebalance, NC Nerf and Rebalanced warfare.

Otherwise the usual, with six slots and two civs banned per player, Venice and Iroquois out by default. Any takers?

Guildencrantz fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Feb 3, 2015

# ? Feb 3, 2015 14:20

Microplastics: Jul 6, 2007; It's what's for dinner.

I would love to but if they were packaged up in a fake-DLC (which I think is necessary for GMR), then I'd have to constantly move it in and out of the DLC folder, maybe as much as once or twice a day, just so I could keep playing my non-modded GMR games.

If someone could write a batch script that effectively "toggles" the fake-DLC on or off with a click of an icon on the desktop, I'd deffo be up for it.

edit: also, isn't Rebalanced Warfare made for the AI's sake?

# ? Feb 3, 2015 14:27

Guildencrantz: May 1, 2012; IM ONE OF THE GOOD ONES

KKKlean Energy posted:

I would love to but if they were packaged up in a fake-DLC (which I think is necessary for GMR), then I'd have to constantly move it in and out of the DLC folder, maybe as much as once or twice a day, just so I could keep playing my non-modded GMR games.

If someone could write a batch script that effectively "toggles" the fake-DLC on or off with a click of an icon on the desktop, I'd deffo be up for it.

edit: also, isn't Rebalanced Warfare made for the AI's sake?

AFAIK that's for regular MP, GMR doesn't require you to use the fake DLC trick. See the info page.

And no, that's Gort's fourth mod, AI Rebalance, which replaces the AI's advantage in numbers with one in quality (because it sucks at manoevering large groups). We wouldn't be using that one for obvious reasons. Rebalanced Warfare just buffs melee and pre-arty siege so archers aren't as dominant in the early game, while making lategame ranged units not worthless.

# ? Feb 3, 2015 14:37

Microplastics: Jul 6, 2007; It's what's for dinner.

Awesome, I'm up for that then.

Incidentally, now that interest in GMR is really picking up, what are people's thoughts on doing a GMR Into The Renaissance? It might be slow with 13 players, but it's set at 200 turns, so it would probably run about the same length of time as a 350-turn 6-player game. The only issue is that the scoring system would have to be totally overhauled to give the weaker civs a fair shot, and getting consensus for that would probably be a nightmare.

Microplastics fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Feb 3, 2015

# ? Feb 3, 2015 14:53

Peas and Rice: Jul 14, 2004; Honor and profit.

I'd be up for that. Hell, I'd be up for anything on GMR. It's about the only Civ I get to play anymore, and I can take turns at work so it's a great way to distract myself for 5 minutes during the day.

# ? Feb 3, 2015 15:58

Guildencrantz: May 1, 2012; IM ONE OF THE GOOD ONES

Great, I'll set it up. Anyone who wants to join, post or PM me your Steam name, we can discuss other stuff (like banned civs) in the comments on the game.

# ? Feb 3, 2015 17:21

Gort: Aug 18, 2003; Good day what ho cup of tea

Take screenshots or something you guys. My main worry with Rebalanced Warfare is that siege units are too good and mounted units aren't good enough - let me know what your impressions are.

# ? Feb 3, 2015 18:36

Microplastics: Jul 6, 2007; It's what's for dinner.

*everyone rushes to mathematics*

Well I for one will be keeping a blog, so you'll get my report at least.

# ? Feb 3, 2015 18:49

Lord Justice: Jul 24, 2012; "This god whom I created was human-made and madness, like all gods! Woman she was, and only a poor specimen of woman and ego. But I overcame myself, the sufferer; I carried my own ashes to the mountains; I invented a brighter flame for myself. And behold, then this god fled from me!"

If I get into the game, I'll keep a record of my side as well. When I used the mod in SP, I didn't find that siege was overpowered, you still needed to protect them properly. Then again, I was playing with Smart AI, so that probably changes the equation. The biggest issue was the promotions, which brings stupid AI up to par, and smart AI into killing machines which shred your army like wet paper.

# ? Feb 3, 2015 18:54

Gort: Aug 18, 2003; Good day what ho cup of tea

I actually made the AI rebalance specifically because I couldn't get Smart AI and Active AI in Multiplayer to work together in multiplayer because they're both DLL mods. (and both of the creators have left the mod scene and posted no source code :argh:

)

Vanilla AI is broken in that it often is unable to move and fire with its ranged units, so I figured giving all their ranged units 1 extra range and double-attack would just about make up for it. The mod certainly seems to lead to a lot more early warmongering, since cities are a lot less impregnable when you can shell them from outside of their range.

# ? Feb 3, 2015 19:23

Lord Justice: Jul 24, 2012; "This god whom I created was human-made and madness, like all gods! Woman she was, and only a poor specimen of woman and ego. But I overcame myself, the sufferer; I carried my own ashes to the mountains; I invented a brighter flame for myself. And behold, then this god fled from me!"

Gort posted:

I actually made the AI rebalance specifically because I couldn't get Smart AI and Active AI in Multiplayer to work together in multiplayer because they're both DLL mods. (and both of the creators have left the mod scene and posted no source code )

Vanilla AI is broken in that it often is unable to move and fire with its ranged units, so I figured giving all their ranged units 1 extra range and double-attack would just about make up for it. The mod certainly seems to lead to a lot more early warmongering, since cities are a lot less impregnable when you can shell them from outside of their range.

Yeah, pretty much. Smart AI does move and attack, which means they're constantly pinging your siege units for half health or whatever else when you're attacking a city with your mod. I also play on Quick Speed Deity, so the promotions plus science adjustments so that they're almost always ahead of me in science meant I couldn't really fight them anymore and had to turn the combat rebalance off. It's a good idea, just doesn't mesh well with Smart AI.

# ? Feb 3, 2015 19:32

Gort: Aug 18, 2003; Good day what ho cup of tea

Oof. Quick speed Deity is basically the most difficult the game gets.

# ? Feb 3, 2015 19:43

Lord Justice: Jul 24, 2012; "This god whom I created was human-made and madness, like all gods! Woman she was, and only a poor specimen of woman and ego. But I overcame myself, the sufferer; I carried my own ashes to the mountains; I invented a brighter flame for myself. And behold, then this god fled from me!"

Gort posted:

Oof. Quick speed Deity is basically the most difficult the game gets.

Yeah, and it's even more difficult with your mods. The way science works, (assuming I'm not playing poorly, which is possible) you can't really catch up with the AI until the Information Era. That plus Smart AI means I refer to the difficulty as Deity+. It's good though, I like playing Civ with as little compromise as possible, going as far as to use the Generic Civ as well. Although it means Civ is less a strategy game and more of a puzzle game, it does force me to play as optimally as possible, which I feel is the point of the whole endeavor.

# ? Feb 3, 2015 19:56

Eikre: May 2, 2009

Per combatchat from a few days ago:

At one point I got irritated enough at the incoherent crossbow -> Gatling gun upgrade path that I started drawing up a new unit tree, and the work expanded into out-and-out solitaire war-gaming on a paper hex-grid with fudged math and mechanics in flux.

Where I eventually arrived was:

code:

Classical | Medieval : Late Med. | Renaiss. : Late Renaiss. | Industrial  | Modern
Swordsman |- - - - - > Arquebus -|- - - - - > Line Infantry | - - - - - - > Trench Infantry
          | Pikeman - - - - - - -|- - - - - > Line Infantry | - - - - - - > Trench Infantry
          |            Crossbow -|- - - - - - - - - - - - - > Rifleman    |
          |                      |                          | Gatling gun > Machine Gun

First thing I decided was that spears, archers, and warriors would converge, instead of trying to maintain the parity of their roles in the modern era. It's not like crossbowmen were ever seen traipsing around with bayonet-affixing grenadiers or anything, but I still think this model smooths out the historical incongruities a little and affords some upshot for the game mechanics. As far as the history goes, we start at the beginning of the age of sail, where exploration parties have both crossbows and gunpowder in supply; meanwhile, on the open battlefield, pike-and-shot tactics grow in prominence, leveraging the destructive power of arquebuser and protecting them with the pikeman formations which have defined warfare for centuries. The two are synthesized when the former absorb the disciplines of the later by drilling and affixing bayonets for stamina in hand-to-hand combat. Marksmanship is, at first, the province of elite troops, but as mass-production makes the distribution of accurate, automatic weapons possible, it becomes a foundational skill for the common soldier.

To get it all working, I started working with some fairly fundamental changes to the game's basic conceits:

- You need a shitload more room. I started by separating every hex into seven smaller hexes, tripling all the distances (and giving units move speeds to match). Lately I've been trying it out with three hexes for every one in the current scale, which basically doubles distances, instead.
- Starting with the arquebuser, units can use a ranged attack and move to occupy. Arquebusers and line infantry can only engage adjacent units, but everything in the Crossbow unit line (Riflemen and Trench Infantry) can engage from two tiles away.
- Units get more special poo poo going on for them instead of just being numerical advancements on the previous model. I've been trying line infantry out with "Makes a ranged attack; will make a melee attack afterwards if it will defeat the enemy" for example, and given trench infantry a hefty bonus for fortification. Gatling guns fire back when you attack them within their range.
- Since the modern period is a new exercise in "all archers, all the time," you also revise the earlier eras to greatly deemphisize the effectiveness of actual archers. I would prefer to see them as vital contributors to combined arms, but not actual workhorses unto themselves. For example, they could do only moderate damage, but give friendly melee units a bonus tantamount to a flank when attacking an enemy who has endured an archery barrage that turn. Even at Agincourt, the French only faced defeat when it was delivered at the tip of a sword; Ranged combatants in antiquity were always annoying and could be ferociously demoralizing, but they rarely ever carried a victory all by themselves.

Now the really difficult part is mathhammering it all together and trying to get everything into the tech tree such that they're ever a worthwhile addition to your forces. To keep everything fun an fresh, ancillary unit types all deserve attention; I think marines are better off represented as a kind of "combat doctrine," the civilization-wide promotions that some people were discussing before. Bazookas could be a good replacement for anti-tank guns (who the gently caress cares about those things?) and upgrade into RPGs to do double-duty against aircraft. Maybe you could invent a grenadier unit to upgrade them out of. I think riflemen and scouts should upgrade into snipers in the atomic era; aside from being a second chance for the guys who never found archery ruins, they can also offer the same support benefits that early-era archers did, and spot for your artillery.

Important note: Samurai should end up replacing arquebusers, and that's so appropriate that it honestly makes me a little excited.

# ? Feb 4, 2015 03:35

Poil: Mar 17, 2007

That sounds really complicated and very awesome. Any chance for an explorer to replace the scout sometime after medieval? Something a bit beefier and possibly faster or sees further?

# ? Feb 4, 2015 15:15

Eikre: May 2, 2009

I can see that. Since scouts end up so far from home after they get embarkation, I think any marginal updates they get as a pure exploration unit should come passively and for free from technology. Mostly they need to be able to run from latter-day barbarian units, so they should get something like the atlatlist's ability to withdraw at, say, Navigation or Gunpowder.

Or you can collapse them and archeologists into the same unit. Call it an "explorer" from day one and give them a change of clothes when you research Archeology, just like how civilian units all modernize.

Plenty of ways to go with it, but the issue is mostly in a vacuum, with regards to combat, because of how limited the scout's use is in a pitched battle.

Another structural thing I thought of, which is moderately related: if archers stop being the premier unit of the early ages, then raiding a barbarian camp should heal the triumphant unit, just like pillaging a tile. That gives some stamina back to barbarian hunters.

# ? Feb 4, 2015 21:56

Fryhtaning: Jul 21, 2010

I get way too much sick satisfaction out of being a giant troll to the AI.

8 players on a large Earth map, Emperor difficulty. Nothing special going on until the Industrial age, really. The Shoshone and Morocco pick a fight with me, so I take a few cities and push them off to the side and keep growing. I plan on growing as loving big as I can, just because I can, so I keep expanding and filling in all the unclaimed areas I can find. Industrial era hits and I'm the first to pick an Ideology, so I naturally pick Autocracy. Everyone else eventually settles on Order. Even my friends Mongolia and Germany, and the typically Freedom-loving Ethiopia. Naturally, the World Ideology of Order is easily passed and I eventually find myself around a -45 happiness modifier (but hanging on with 0-5 happiness overall), even with very strong culture and tourism.

All throughout, the Dutch are completely off the chain with polders in North Africa, and suddenly they are influential with all but me and one other civ before anyone even has Flight. Before I know it, I'm suddenly 21 turns away from wearing Dutch blue jeans, so, knowing what has to happen, I buckle in and amass a fuckoff army by producing GW bombers, battleships, and infantry in every city, and, with 11 turns to go, declare war. Five turns later, I have 80% of William's wonders and tourism in my clutches, slowing the cultural bleeding down to a "slowly rising" level.

Thoroughly pissed off at the audacity of William's attempts to win me over with love, I turn my attention to the obsolete Order ideology. A couple of UN resolutions later, most of the city-states are mine, and in turn help me convince the rest of the world to abandon their silly notion of five-year plans.

At this point, my happiness has jumped from almost 0 to 42, and the idea of the Dutch has become nothing more than a repressed memory for my people.

In a pathetic attempt to intimidate me with a little dickwaving, the Dutch then try to reclaim some of their original land. I.. correct them.

At the next UN gathering, I have two choices - win the game via diplomacy, or continue being a troll. I choose the only option - being a troll. I spread my vote equally among everyone else, obviously leading to no one winning, and then add the finishing touches at the next UN vote - rocketing me up to almost 100 happiness. As an added bonus, everyone also votes against Mongolia's resolution to repeal the Shinto world religion - the one I founded.

All that remained was to kick back and enjoy the view of billions of unhappy souls down below as I rocketed through space.

# ? Feb 4, 2015 22:25

TooMuchAbstraction: Oct 14, 2012; I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.; Fun Shoe

I had a game once where I went Freedom, pushed through the World Ideology of Freedom, and then literally every other civ in the game went Order. Well, some of them went Order before I got the world ideology through, but most of them didn't. It's kind of hilarious watching them be pissy about ideologies, because they're so bad at it.

# ? Feb 4, 2015 22:40

Psion: Dec 13, 2002; eVeN I KnOw wHaT CoRnEr gAs iS

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

I had a game once where I went Freedom, pushed through the World Ideology of Freedom, and then literally every other civ in the game went Order. Well, some of them went Order before I got the world ideology through, but most of them didn't. It's kind of hilarious watching them be pissy about ideologies, because they're so bad at it.

I like gifting cities that revolt back to their parent civ. I don't want your poo poo city and I sure love you having to be gracious about my ideology destroying your entire civilization :allears:

# ? Feb 4, 2015 22:45

Trivia: Feb 8, 2006; I'm an obtuse man,
so I'll try to be oblique.

What determines the discontent modifiers from ideology? Sometimes I'll share one with my neighbors, and have a good amount of happiness, but still suffer -X from discontent. Other times I"ll be the only civ following that ideology, yet everyone else is unhappy.

I see no rhyme or reason.

# ? Feb 5, 2015 01:01

majormonotone: Jan 25, 2013

Trivia posted:

What determines the discontent modifiers from ideology? Sometimes I'll share one with my neighbors, and have a good amount of happiness, but still suffer -X from discontent. Other times I"ll be the only civ following that ideology, yet everyone else is unhappy.

I see no rhyme or reason.

The tourism output of Civs with a conflicting ideology. Basically: if you're Freedom, and someone else is Order, and you have more tourism than they do, you'll put more pressure on them to switch to Freedom.

# ? Feb 5, 2015 01:07

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# ? May 29, 2024 13:14

Trivia: Feb 8, 2006; I'm an obtuse man,
so I'll try to be oblique.

So in those instances it would be behoove-y to place Diplomats instead of Spies, and pay for their open borders.

Thanks!

# ? Feb 5, 2015 03:03

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