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On Terra Firma posted:How is this even happening? Everywhere you look there are people saying "No seriously, that autism-vaccine thing is bullshit and they are perfectly safe" yet more and more people choose to believe otherwise. Sampling error-places you look are probably less likely to show vaccine skepticism. That said, I'm looking up the source of the 1-in-5 claim now to see if there's a demographic breakdown. Link to results is here. I'll update this post once I nail it down. Bear in mind we're working with increasingly small N, and I'm not confident the power was great on this poll to begin with. edit: yeah, ok, this set is useless for further parsing. Their "Millenial" group (18-29 y.o.) is N=175, but they don't provide the raw data or a further block breakdown for subdemo analysis. It could be within the CI, meaning it's an error result. There's also no posted information about their sampling procedure, which may mean it's some variety of convenience sampling. The data may be worthless. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Jan 31, 2015 |
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Jan 31, 2015 17:47
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There's also the technicality that the person that is actually discovering the vaccine doesn't need to be a MD. It's more likely to be a biochemist or a chemist that specializes in vaccine design. Plenty of MDs involved in the process, but a mostf the people actually doing the bench work of drug discovery have relevant PhD's and not MDs.
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Jan 31, 2015 17:49
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Reminder to all: MDs are not science degrees. They are not usually adequately trained to evaluate science as part of the MD. They can usually read an r value and identify obvious validity threats (if they're stated in the article), but they can't, for example, diagnose a Heywood case. Their statistical training is often limited, and their training in theoretical development or evaluation is ofetn nonexistent. MDs are expert professionals in clinical care- the one on one of actually applying medicine, but although they have a substantial amount of training in the basic underlying theory of the stuff they do in the field, they are not experts in it in the same way one of them with a PhD would be.
Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Jan 31, 2015 |
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Jan 31, 2015 17:57
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That is a depressing statistic, but it is worth nothing that only in the past few years do you really start to see much stronger vaccine support in mass media level. Things like Katie Couric's HPV vaccine gaff lend credence to the idea that vaccines are not safe and throughout media as a whole there is a lot of false balance that still portrays both sides of the issues with near equal footing. The measles epidemic is helping to raise awareness and correct this issue, but for me it is easy to understand why so many people can believe when it is frequently still displayed as a controversy in media.
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Jan 31, 2015 18:07
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ActusRhesus posted:I love some of the comments on his facebook page. This is probably true. I'm in the medical device field, and while we consult with doctors, doctors do not develop our products. There is the odd exception of the MD/PhD, but other than that, medical device companies employ scientists and engineers to create products, not doctors. This might be somewhat different in a pharma company that would produce vaccines, but I'd wager that they just employ a higher ratio of scientists/chemists and still don't employ too many doctors.
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Jan 31, 2015 18:09
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On Terra Firma posted:How is this even happening? 1 - sample size. They asked 1000 people. Thats no where near enough. 2 - Location. Depends on where they got the 1000 people as well. 3 - Millennials are loving stupid.
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Jan 31, 2015 18:37
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Genocide Tendency posted:1 - sample size. They asked 1000 people. Thats no where near enough. That's pretty good for a national poll.
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Jan 31, 2015 19:04
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Genocide Tendency posted:3 - Millennials are loving stupid. gently caress you. Genocide Tendency posted:2 - Location. Depends on where they got the 1000 people as well. This is the biggest factor. For example - supposedly the PNW has alot of anti vaxxers but I've got a big group of friends that are all having babies here in Seattle and we're all on the same page that anti vaxxers are god drat morons - even the hippy granola anti GMO ones. But I do know that there are little towns around the mountain foothills that are filled with antivaxxers. Thank god they are too scared of Seattle to come here.
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Jan 31, 2015 19:12
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There's also that if you're surveying "millenials" tons of them ain't even out of high school, let alone out of college.
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Jan 31, 2015 19:16
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Genocide Tendency posted:3 - Millennials are loving stupid. How exactly does calling a group of people stupid help to convince a subset of them that they are wrong?
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Jan 31, 2015 20:13
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torpedan posted:How exactly does calling a group of people stupid help to convince a subset of them that they are wrong? Jesus Christ.. For real people? You are going to get huffy and lovely over a throw away pot shot? Holy hell some of Y'all are way to sensitive.
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Jan 31, 2015 22:27
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Fun satire, relevant to the thread. My Doctor Told Me I Should Vaccinate My Children, But Then Someone Much Louder Than My Doctor Told Me I Shouldn’t
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Jan 31, 2015 23:52
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torpedan posted:How exactly does calling a group of people stupid help to convince a subset of them that they are wrong? It doesn't, but it also doesn't mean it's incorrect.
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Jan 31, 2015 23:58
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Genocide Tendency posted:Jesus Christ.. Yes. Lets play fill in the blank, please select an appropirate response: ________ are loving stupid. A) Blacks B) Hispanics C) Elderly D) Millennials Poking at a group of people, getting a response, and hand waving it away as a joke is pretty much a classic form of harassment no matter what group it targets or what topic it relates to. The tone in which the vaccine conversation has been happening, as well as the overall media exposure and presence, have had a massive effect on the rise of the anti-vaccine movement. Having active spokespeople who vocal campaign on the movements behalf do a massive amount of damage and it is not going to be undone by insulting people. I have referenced this topic more than once in this thread, but the pro-vaccine movement is having to come to terms with this issue as well. OwlFancier posted:It doesn't, but it also doesn't mean it's incorrect. It does not stand to reason that an entire age range of people are of lower intelligence. Per the data, 80% do not believe there is a link between autism and vaccines, but they are also being labeled the same due to the actions of the 20% (or 43/43 if you want to choose choice in vaccination).
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Feb 1, 2015 01:46
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tbf millenials are pretty loving dumb
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Feb 1, 2015 02:05
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This line of argumentation is loving stupid.
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Feb 1, 2015 02:18
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Leo Showers posted:tbf millenials are pretty loving dumb Seriously? I get that there is a lot of angst and displeasure with people who do not vaccinate, and a lot of opinions about trying to convince them with evidence which is ignored or poorly rebutted, but this behavior is human. People dig in when challenged, hell you can find plenty of examples in this subforum. This does not make people magically less intelligent, and labeling them as such is not really beneficial. If there is some grand study that I missed out on showing the people who happen to fall into an arbitrary date range are somehow less intelligent than the people born before them I would love to get to read it. Anecdotally, my personal experience anti-vaxxers does not really fall in line with him being "stupid."
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Feb 1, 2015 02:24
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Discendo Vox posted:Reminder to all: MDs are not science degrees. They are not usually adequately trained to evaluate science as part of the MD. They can usually read an r value and identify obvious validity threats (if they're stated in the article), but they can't, for example, diagnose a Heywood case. Their statistical training is often limited, and their training in theoretical development or evaluation is ofetn nonexistent. MDs are expert professionals in clinical care- the one on one of actually applying medicine, but although they have a substantial amount of training in the basic underlying theory of the stuff they do in the field, they are not experts in it in the same way one of them with a PhD would be. This is the most common argument used against Ph.Ds who will publicly speak out for vaccines. Some rear end in a top hat anti-vaccine blogger called Dr. Paul Offit's (created the rotavirus vaccine) lab and demanded that Offit see his autistic child for treatment, the receptionist repeated that Offit is a research scientist not a clinician and then the autism speaks people trumpeted it as proof that Offit doesn't know anything about autism and his opinion is invalid.
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Feb 1, 2015 02:25
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pentyne posted:This is the most common argument used against Ph.Ds who will publicly speak out for vaccines. Some rear end in a top hat anti-vaccine blogger called Dr. Paul Offit's (created the rotavirus vaccine) lab and demanded that Offit see his autistic child for treatment, the receptionist repeated that Offit is a research scientist not a clinician and then the autism speaks people trumpeted it as proof that Offit doesn't know anything about autism and his opinion is invalid. "you're highly qualified! That means you're completely unqualified!"
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Feb 1, 2015 02:38
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Welp, the measles hits keep rolling. Per the washington post: Washington Post posted:Health officials announced that a college student diagnosed with measles recently traveled across New York on a train, potentially exposing untold numbers of travelers to the virus, according to news reports.
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Feb 1, 2015 02:55
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Can you get vaccinated for measles as an adult? I know some people who weren't vaccinated because the vaccine didn't exist when they were growing up, and I'm wondering if they should pursue it now before they get the actual disease.
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Feb 1, 2015 03:10
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So is this how America ends? Not with a bang but under the massive weight of our society's collective idiocy?
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Feb 1, 2015 03:19
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ToxicSlurpee posted:So is this how America ends? Not with a bang but under the massive weight of our society's collective idiocy? To be fair, that was always how it was likely to end.
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Feb 1, 2015 03:20
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torpedan posted:Yes. Lets play fill in the blank, please select an appropirate response: Tell me you ran this by your tumblr group before you posted it. On a side note.. Blacks? Hispanics? Where did race come into play? You are dumb. Take your Sjw bullshit and gently caress right off. Adults are having a conversation here.
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Feb 1, 2015 03:25
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Realistically they should see a doctor to get more of an individualized answer to that question. If they previously had measles, they should be able to get a titers blood test to see if their immune system responds. They may be able to get a one, this is really out of my area though as I am not a doctor nor do I read about the stuff all day.
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Feb 1, 2015 03:27
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PT6A posted:To be fair, that was always how it was likely to end. Now I'm just going to create my escape plan and then watch as everybody tries to figure out who to blame while the nation burns instead of putting out the drat fire.
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Feb 1, 2015 03:30
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Now I'm just going to create my escape plan and then watch as everybody tries to figure out who to blame while the nation burns instead of putting out the drat fire. I hope you're not going to Europe, because measles are slightly less dangerous than fascists.
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Feb 1, 2015 03:32
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Genocide Tendency posted:Tell me you ran this by your tumblr group before you posted it. Each answer is a reasonably defined group of individuals, I assume none of the example needs explaining. Feel free to call it what you want, but in the case of vaccination practices, broadly labeling people as stupid is counter productive and only pushes people further away from vaccinating their children. Depending on how legitimate the sampling of the data was, the best use of this information would be knowing where to target a media campaign.
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Feb 1, 2015 04:18
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torpedan posted:Each answer is a reasonably defined group of individuals, I assume none of the example needs explaining. lol
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Feb 1, 2015 04:35
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torpedan posted:Each answer is a reasonably defined group of individuals, I assume none of the example needs explaining. You're right, let's fix this now. You, torpedan, as an individual, are pretty loving dumb.
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Feb 1, 2015 04:41
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PT6A posted:Can you get vaccinated for measles as an adult? I know some people who weren't vaccinated because the vaccine didn't exist when they were growing up, and I'm wondering if they should pursue it now before they get the actual disease. You can. The standard CDC recommendations are that anyone born before 1957 likely does NOT need the MMR vaccine, because they almost certainly were exposed in childhood and have immunity. Adults born after 1957 who do not have verification that they were vaccinated and did not have measles as a child are recommended to speak to their doctor about having their titers read to determine if they need it. Adults with no immunity are recommended to receive 1 or 2 doses, at their doctor's discretion.
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Feb 1, 2015 04:42
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gently caress. This. poo poo. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...pm_national_pop efb: Oh already posted. Still, gently caress THIS GUY.
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Feb 1, 2015 04:49
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substitute posted:gently caress. This. poo poo. Yep. He's much more likely to get his license pulled than, say, Oz, because it's an area of practice most doctors agree on.
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Feb 1, 2015 04:50
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Fionnoula posted:You can. The standard CDC recommendations are that anyone born before 1957 likely does NOT need the MMR vaccine, because they almost certainly were exposed in childhood and have immunity. Adults born after 1957 who do not have verification that they were vaccinated and did not have measles as a child are recommended to speak to their doctor about having their titers read to determine if they need it. Adults with no immunity are recommended to receive 1 or 2 doses, at their doctor's discretion. 1954 and 1952, respectively, for the people I'm talking about. One told me flat out that he never had measles and was worried where there was a bit of a local outbreak here, but I suppose he might have been exposed and built up immunity to it anyway. I did for chicken pox -- never had it, but I got tested for antibodies before I got the vaccine, and lo and behold, I was already immune.
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Feb 1, 2015 04:55
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Jesus christ the naturalistic fallacy is becoming more and more like a religion or cult.
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Feb 1, 2015 05:01
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Discendo Vox posted:You're right, let's fix this now. Finally, a post I can get behind. I, like any anti-vaxxer being subjected to personal attacks, am totally convinced. Discendo Vox posted:Yep. He's much more likely to get his license pulled than, say, Oz, because it's an area of practice most doctors agree on. It would be nice to see that happen. Although given that his wife is a chiropractor, it would probably just kick start his career in the something like homeopathy or supplements (much like Wakefield's various activities in Austin.)
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Feb 1, 2015 05:08
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PT6A posted:1954 and 1952, respectively, for the people I'm talking about. One told me flat out that he never had measles and was worried where there was a bit of a local outbreak here, but I suppose he might have been exposed and built up immunity to it anyway. I did for chicken pox -- never had it, but I got tested for antibodies before I got the vaccine, and lo and behold, I was already immune. They could probably get their titers read anyway, although they may end up having to pay for it out of pocket. I had this conversation with my mother (born in 1954) the other day and she said she specifically remembers "the year we all got measles. I mean everyone in the whole school. and then the mumps. EVERYBODY." but she also just requested to have her titers read anyway because my kid's disability means we spend a lot of time around other families with disabled, immune-compromised kids; her doctor was fine with running all the tests for her to allay her concerns about unknowingly putting others at risk.
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Feb 1, 2015 08:11
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For the most part I don't care about anti-vaccine stuff because I don't see the lunatic fringe getting far enough traction to cause an epidemic. Eventually parents realize "Hey, I'd like my child to go to University and I guess they need to be vaccinated for that" and that's the end of the discussion. But then I saw someone (an educated mother, crazy but usually in harmless ways) in my facebook post this thing http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/so-should-we-just-round-up-the-anti-vaccine-parents-and-ship-them-to-guantanamo/ with the comment "I am sad to say, this is the first article I've read that didn't simply divide people into two extremist camps. Yes, there are vaccine moderates. Additionally, this article raises an interesting question about the unintended social consequences of compulsory vaccinations." Are you goddamn kidding me? Vaccine moderates? Maybe not Guantanamo, but if there's an actual epidemic there will be no discussion about social consequences. They will take all sick or unvaccinated children and stuff them in a quarantine. Same deal with the kids with leukemia who frankly only get a pass because frankly they'd likely die before they can pass on the disease, same reason as they're not allowed to take the vaccine. That's close enough to Guantanamo, isn't it? I responded with a softer touch than it deserved, about the people I know who are confined to a wheelchair because they grew up in a place where polio was still around, about how no vaccine is 100% and the difference between being vaccinated and being immune and the importance of herd immunity. And at the end of the day, the article is right that 100 people out of the 15 million people who visit disneyland each year is negligible. But the idea of a vaccine moderate really caught in my craw. This isn't a loving episode of south park and the truth is not in the middle. twerking on the railroad fucked around with this message at 11:09 on Feb 1, 2015 |
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Feb 1, 2015 11:07
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torpedan posted:Finally, a post I can get behind. I, like any anti-vaxxer being subjected to personal attacks, am totally convinced. Wait, what? Where is Wakefield practicing in Austin? I have too much free time, I will happily hold up a sign outside his office saying something to the effect of, "This guy gets rich from dead kids."
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Feb 1, 2015 11:36
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torpedan posted:It does not stand to reason that an entire age range of people are of lower intelligence. Per the data, 80% do not believe there is a link between autism and vaccines, but they are also being labeled the same due to the actions of the 20% (or 43/43 if you want to choose choice in vaccination). It does when that group are idiot teenagers. Assuming that is what "millenial" means. Teenagers are dumb. I was dumb as a teenager, I like to think I am moderately less dumb now, but yeah, teenagers are dumb, vapid, poorly educated and inclined to believe all sorts of retarded poo poo.
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Feb 1, 2015 13:16
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