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Cheers.quote:He spoke a little bit softly, as if apologizing for the resonant baritone of his voice. That must be the bit that was confusing me.
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Jan 30, 2015 14:31
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Oldmangray posted:the writing has improved immeasurably over the course of the series but cringe worthy? never. mra? never. any flaws the characters have are there to highlight growth and understanding and maturity, Yeah Im going to agree with Oldmangray here. There might be some things that turn you off (male gaze, terrible wolf on wolf orgy scene in the 2nd book) but I enjoy the books. I`m not looking for the books to change my view on life or to bring a fantastic new philosphy in my life. I just want a wizard who quotes star wars, kicks demons in the balls while saying something boston like and lights buildings on fire.
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Jan 30, 2015 16:24
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Does anyone know of a good place to purchase the earlier hardcovers? Looking around at the usual spots they are at least $100 or more. I assume there is not enough demand for reprints but I don't know if I can stomach $100+. I don't need them by any means, I'd just like to have them.
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Jan 30, 2015 16:44
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Rowe posted:Does anyone know of a good place to purchase the earlier hardcovers? Looking around at the usual spots they are at least $100 or more. I assume there is not enough demand for reprints but I don't know if I can stomach $100+. I don't need them by any means, I'd just like to have them. Actually, Penguin just recently did a hardcover reprint of the first book and said they'd do the same for the others if there was enough demand. Just checked Amazon, Storm Front new is currently $22.46.
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Jan 30, 2015 18:55
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MildShow posted:Actually, Penguin just recently did a hardcover reprint of the first book and said they'd do the same for the others if there was enough demand. Just checked Amazon, Storm Front new is currently $22.46. I saw that one, should have mentioned that I guess. I was clueless why that one was so cheap and the others weren't. I'll definitely grab a copy and keep my fingers crossed. Thanks!
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Jan 30, 2015 19:19
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Metal Loaf posted:That must be the bit that was confusing me. IIRC she is supposed to be a character that wants to gently caress him. He's also supposed to be a loving giant, something like 6'9", in good shape and reasonably attractive. He just seems like a complete weirdo until you realize that his mannerisms are those of a wizard, not an autist.
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Jan 30, 2015 19:29
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I enjoy the books too, and I like the dumb action wizard quoting star wars and I'm not looking for the books to change my life. I don't see why any of that means we shouldn't spend a page here or there discussing one of the more negative parts of the book. This thread spends a lot of time discussing way smaller aspects of the books, if you don't like the conversation, feel free to ignore it for a while (like I do whenever anyone mentions Nemesis = Lasciel) For my money, regardless of if its an author-opinion invading the work, or a genuine character flaw, there's been plenty of time for Dresden to actually grow out of it, properly. We're a long aways away from the early books which rambled at length about women's personal appearances and the like, but I feel in many ways whenever the series attempts to address Harry's sexist thinking, it comes off as lamp shading rather than real character growth. He's still chivalrous and much of his POV around Murphy and other women character in the series are pretty backwards. I personally think this is an issue with Butcher(Every new female character is introduced with a description of their sexy bod, Thomas's arc, the way Murphy is written even now, etc, not all of this can be chalked up to a characters POV), it's not a huge problem, there's much worse sexism in fantasy today, but this is the kind of subtle sexism that permeates most peoples thoughts in some way, but it's still something worth talking about.
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Jan 30, 2015 21:29
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Except this really doesn't happen in his other works. The women in Codex Alera were amongst the most capable and scariest of all.
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Jan 30, 2015 21:39
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ConfusedUs posted:Except this really doesn't happen in his other works. The women in Codex Alera were amongst the most capable and scariest of all. There's also the fact that the only named human female member of the First Aleran started as a brothel madam, in a universe where women have a history of joining the legions as Knights. And for most part, it's only female characters whose use of powers actively harms them (remember how Isana passed out due to emotional overload every other chapter in the early books?) while the guys get to throw fire around and cut through rock with little problem. I don't think Butcher is actively, purposefully sexist, and his writing sure is pretty fun to read, but he definitely has some impressions of "This is how women are" compared to men that he doesn't try that hard to break. Mars4523 fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Jan 30, 2015 |
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Jan 30, 2015 21:49
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Rowe posted:I saw that one, should have mentioned that I guess. I was clueless why that one was so cheap and the others weren't. I'll definitely grab a copy and keep my fingers crossed. Thanks! There is a vanishingly small chance you could find them at a random Books a Million; that's how I got everything but Fool Moon, even years after they were OOP. Honestly, though, the best bet is to buy the second printing of Storm Front, pray a lot of other people do the same, then keep repeating the process if/when Penguin reprints subsequent books.
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Jan 30, 2015 22:09
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I just finnished "The Rook". I'll talk more about it in a bit, but for now I'd like to say something about the ending: Is it just me, or did it feel like the X-Men uniting with the Brotherhood of Mutants?
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Jan 30, 2015 22:41
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Benny the Snake posted:I just finnished "The Rook". I'll talk more about it in a bit, but for now I'd like to say something about the ending: That's not a bad comparison, really, except that neither side in the Rook is as extreme as either of those. The Rook is basically "What if the X-Men were based in London and officially sanctioned by the government?"
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Jan 30, 2015 22:46
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ConfusedUs posted:The Rook is basically "What if the X-Men were based in London and officially sanctioned by the government?" So it's Captain Britain and MI:13?  More seriously, it sounds interesting. I will have to add it to my list. Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 11:51 on Jan 31, 2015 |
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Jan 30, 2015 23:06
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ConfusedUs posted:That's not a bad comparison, really, except that neither side in the Rook is as extreme as either of those. 
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Jan 31, 2015 04:46
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Oh man, I leave my computer for a few days and miss the fun gender politics in Dresden Files talk. I'm gonna chime in that Dresden Files does definitely have it's problems. And you can be unintentionally sexist very easily. I mean as much as being a goober is Harry's character trait that still means we got told about Molly's training bra over and over and over.For awhile I really didn't like Molly and then when I thought about it, I realized it was more I didn't like how Molly is used/treated. This isn't just oh no poor Molly is now a fairy queen. It's more her being asked to get on her knees while naked so Harry can humiliate her. Its Molly stumbling on organism times when checking out the corspe. It's how She gets over exhausted/burnt out by her powers so often. It's her throwing water on her white shirt before talking to detective guy. It just seemed like early on she was getting all the lame "girl character" bits. And this creepy diconamy of sexy sexy oh wait lets talk about how she is a kid. And I'm actually more raising an eyebrow over that than Thomas having supernatural rapey powers. Only about half of those things are the result of Harry being Harry and the books are in his POV. I mean like as McCoy points out in Changes a lot of what makes Thomas an appealing character on the surfaces is what makes the White Court vampires so dangerous, and Thomas might not even be aware he is doing it. And at least until the threesome fixing his problems thing Thomas's sexy powers are treated as bad/dangerous. I actually liked how Thomas compared his rape powers to Harry's Winter Knight mantle. I would like it more if Harry and Thomas talked about that. Cause while I thought the winter knight mantle made Harry's narration got rapier than I cared for, I took away that Harry's every day chauvinism only need a small push from his winter mantle to get there. Like maybe if Harry was more a thrill seeker or angrier person winter mantle would have pushed him more toward murder. So I just find the early Molly stuff more problematic and more insidious sexism then anything else. That and everything with Lucio is kinda well it's super important to the plot so it doesn't jump out at you as odd. But then when tied together and with Murphy in Skin Game makes you start thinking well why was this the go to thing to move the plot forward. Could the story be written without doing all that? The Molly bits especially seem the most thoughtless. And I'm all for making you characters suffer. But Susan and Molly are damaged in ways that end up making them bigger hitters/more important to the bigger plan. Lucio is hurt to make her less important to the big picture and I hope that isn't the path Murphy ends up with. Cause that would establish that the combat focused ladies are the ones who are need to be less relevant. (And not that I think about it Harry and Luccio who is a pretty combat focused lady date after Murphy turns Harry down. Rebound much Harry :P) Also, woman in the Dresden Files frequently have food brought up when Harry describes them. So it's not just lets talk about titties and curves, it's lets compare women to things I consume. So there's that. I super love the Dresden Files, but it has problems with gender that aren't all Harry's fault. But they are small ones that I am 100% certain are due to not thinking it through. Anyway, I just finished Rivers of London and I thought is was loving rad. Just grabbed the other audiobook. Now I'm off to listening to them and back to drawing comics. Edit; Oh and how to all of you define Urban Fantasy? I was talking to a friend about this recently that it kinda blurs into Paranormal Romance and folks in here bring up Anita Blake reminded me. So like Twilight is clearly Paranormal Romance and Dresden is clearly Urban Fantasy. But like which is Anita Blake? Or the Sookie Stakehouse books? Or Buffy? Where do you guys usually end up drawing that line? I'm curious. KellHound fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Jan 31, 2015 |
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Jan 31, 2015 22:01
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KellHound posted:Edit; Oh and how to all of you define Urban Fantasy? I was talking to a friend about this recently that it kinda blurs into Paranormal Romance and folks in here bring up Anita Blake reminded me. So like Twilight is clearly Paranormal Romance and Dresden is clearly Urban Fantasy. But like which is Anita Blake? Or the Sookie Stakehouse books? Or Buffy? Where do you guys usually end up drawing that line? I'm curious. This will probably throw some poo poo onto the fan, but gently caress it. To me, there's Paranormal Romance which is straight up romance, but the hunky protagonist is a wizard werewolf vampire, there's Most Urban Fantasy by Female Authors, where the still quite unrelatable female POV romance is a mere 30% to 50% of the book and there's what's left. I don't read the first two. I find new reads by checking the monthly release lists on Fiction Affliction at Tor.com. I decide whether I'll read something or skip it by a) outright skipping the YA, b) checking if the author is male or female and if female then c) if there's a love interest mentioned in the blurb. Sorry, I already have too big a book backlog.
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Jan 31, 2015 22:43
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Megazver posted:This will probably throw some poo poo onto the fan, but gently caress it. This is in regards to part b of you process, are you okay reading female authors and passing on male authors entirely or are you say you will only put female authors up to that extra requirement. Either is kinda hosed up, BUT ITS YOUR READING LIST so whatever. Personally, I'm not crazy about paranormal romance 9 times out of ten but I've read to one or two that were enjoyable. I find myself getting more frustrated at stuff like the Kitty Norvel stuff where I thought I was gonna get some interesting Urban Fantasy with a lady protagonist due to the copy on the back and instead I get super rapey porn. ( will point out the first book meets your critia but is awful so it's an especially bad burn.) So I don't mind a good romance focus book (aka not twilight) as long as it says so on the tin. So like Anita Blake kinda straddling (badumtish) that line is like I know to avoid it because it's well know for turning into porns later. But like some lesser known series have burned me aka Patrica Brigg's Mercy Thompson series. I just want cool ladies to kick rear end and get poo poo done.
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Feb 1, 2015 00:16
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KellHound posted:This is in regards to part b of you process, are you okay reading female authors and passing on male authors entirely or are you say you will only put female authors up to that extra requirement. Either is kinda hosed up, BUT ITS YOUR READING LIST so whatever. I only put up female authors of UF (I do try to keep my reading more gender-balanced in other genres) up to that extra requirement because they're the ones who have hot mysterious dudes, who are trouble, but who are also oh so hard to resist, with sparks flying between them in and the protagonist, in, like, nine out of ten blurbs of what I just want to be a wizard detective story. Male authors only release, like, one or two UF book a month at most and they tend to be pretty low on hunky werewolves. I've thought about what is it about the handling of romance by UF by female authors that leaves me so cold and I've actually read a couple of books about the romance genre to understand it from a critical perspective and here's the conclusion I came to: When people think of romance, they think of two different things. There's the love story, where you're invited to observe two people that you like falling in love and the point of it all is that you feel warm and fuzzy about their journey and there's romance the genre, where you're not a detached observer, you're right loving there, vicariously experiencing falling in love through the protagonist with whatever is the type of attractive human being that you're totally into. Some books manage to do both, Pride & Prejudice being the greatest example. Most, not so much. Now, I'm not actually a snob about romance; I think it's a valuable genre that makes a lot of people happy and that's great. I do actually enjoy romantic sub-plots where the protagonist is male (The Marcus Didius Falco series comes to mind) and I did enjoy the Jack Reacher books I've read, where it's a bit like the male version of this stuff, where the hyper-competent macho murder-machine protagonist bangs a new hot chick every book then rides away into the sunset as she quietly sobs, devastated yet grateful. The thing is, though, this vicarious wish-fulfilment is kind of independent of actual literary value. There's a separate button in the brain that it presses. It's why Twilight and Fifty Shades of Grey and 95% of written erotica can simultaneously be badly written works of fiction and have a powerful effect on their many, many enthusiastic readers as romance/erotica. And unless you're actually into whatever the book selling, whether it's romance or erotica or a power fantasy or wealth porn or whatever, those parts of the book have zero loving value to you as a reader. They could literally be copy-pasted chunks of a tractor instruction manual. So, yeah, my problem is that it's never a love story. It's always female wish-fulfillment. Sure, it's not 90% like in paranormal erotica, it's just 20% to 50%, but I could really do something better with my time, y'know? Megazver fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Feb 1, 2015 |
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Feb 1, 2015 01:47
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with the level of interest and research you have done on the structure of SU/UF books. Why dont you try your hand at making a new thread and see what comes of it. Just as an aside. Worked for 10 years at a publisher for ef
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Feb 1, 2015 02:50
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awesmoe posted:Then why does butcher stop being thoughtless when he writes from the pov of a different character? He really doesn't, though. The short story from Molly's POV was horribly sexist- blatant hero worship of the late great Dresden (which, ok, might stem from her history with him) and then a whole long section about using the power of BOOBS! to trick the bad guys. Oh yeah, and a bit about how Molly's a tomboy, and how she likes "the outdoors, and physical activities, and learning stuff and reading things and building things." You know, the not-girly stuff. That's a direct quote, btw. I about tossed my reader across the room, it was that bad. Reading books and learning stuff is a guy thing now. Good to know.
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Feb 1, 2015 04:57
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LunarTaffy posted:
This is doubly funny because Shannon Butcher is a successful author in her own right.
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Feb 1, 2015 05:46
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Rygar201 posted:This is doubly funny because Shannon Butcher is a successful author in her own right. Well they are divorced now.
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Feb 1, 2015 05:49
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Ornamented Death posted:Well they are divorced now. Is that why he's at the gym so much now?
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Feb 1, 2015 06:35
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Ornamented Death posted:Well they are divorced now. You know there is that whole bit in Murphy's POV about men speaking Martian, so I'm not surprised.
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Feb 1, 2015 06:39
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Woo a bunch of posts in this thread, maybe there's something new to read... Oh, I thought this said the Dresden Files, not gender politics
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Feb 1, 2015 07:12
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KellHound posted:This is in regards to part b of you process, are you okay reading female authors and passing on male authors entirely or are you say you will only put female authors up to that extra requirement. Either is kinda hosed up, BUT ITS YOUR READING LIST so whatever. With Urban Fantasy, I generally avoid female authors unless I have a positive review from a thread here or some other trustworthy source. This is because there's a thin line between Urban Fantasy and Paranormal Romance and a huge loving market for the romances, which means there's a metric fuckton of romances. Search for urban fantasy or something on Amazon and you're going to be inundated by pages and pages and pages of 'Anita Thompson: Vampire Fucker' clones all of which are by female authors(or at least by authors using female pen names). I mean, hell. The only female authors I can think of who are writing non-romance urban fantasy are Alex Hughes and Seanan McGuire, and McGuire's within sight of the romance border. I have no problems with female authors in any other genre and I don't make distinctions anywhere else, but when it comes to urban fantasy skipping over female authors who haven't gotten a good review is lazy and sexist and also the easiest way of eliminating paranormal romances from my choices.
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Feb 1, 2015 07:52
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Khizan posted:The only female authors I can think of who are writing non-romance urban fantasy are Alex Hughes and Seanan McGuire, and McGuire's within sight of the romance border. That reminds me just picked up Seanan McGuire's Rosemary Rue and need to get around to listen to it. But I haven't heard of Alex Hughes' stuff, what's it like tonally and how would you rate it?
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Feb 1, 2015 08:34
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KellHound posted:That reminds me just picked up Seanan McGuire's Rosemary Rue and need to get around to listen to it. But I haven't heard of Alex Hughes' stuff, what's it like tonally and how would you rate it? Alex Hughes Mindspace series is pretty good, it's set in a sort of post-singularity/apocalyptic future where they've already rebuilt to a society similar enough to how we are now, only the vast majority of technology that has even the tiniest sliver of computing power is heavily regulated or banned, after the disastrously powerful weapons used in world war 3 nearly wiped out civilization. So, instead, genetic modification/breeding ended up creating people who are telepathic, precognitive, telekinetic, and so on, who formed the 'Telepath's Guild' that's due to various international treaties is practically a sovereign nation in that it has the final say over the lives of telepaths, to the point where if you arrest a member you have to turn them over to the Guild instead of being able to be tried in a normal court. Anyway, the main character is a dude who used to be pretty much a big shot professor in the Guild due to his ludicrously powerful telepathy that had him capable of teaching multiple students telepathically at once (since the only way to teach telepathic techniques is with a strong mental link with someone, it's not something that you can really explain verbally). He participated in a drug trial that was supposed to enhance telepathic ability, but got addicted to it and hid it, and ended up burning out the mind of one of his students, seriously damaging his own ability, losing his job, and becoming a homeless addict, eventually turning it around and joining AA, and now he essentially is a freelance telepath that is sometimes hired by the police and ends up getting drawn into poo poo way over his head, like you'd expect. It has some amusing Dresden parallels though. The Guild is very early book White Council, the police detective he works with is very Murphy (though not quite as angry), and he's practically a telepath PI instead of a wizard PI, though beyond this they do have a very different feel. There's no real romance, though by several books in the main character and the female detective are a couple, and there's no smouldering glances or passionate vampire sex.
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Feb 1, 2015 13:39
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TenaciousJ posted:Woo a bunch of posts in this thread, maybe there's something new to read... Yeah, thinking about the stuff you read is the worst. Who does that?
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Feb 1, 2015 14:37
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Rygar201 posted:Is that why he's at the gym so much now? Well he said all the working out helps with his migraines, but ultimately I'm sure the divorce also plays a part.
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Feb 1, 2015 14:47
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Rygar201 posted:Yeah, thinking about the stuff you read is the worst. Who does that? There's plenty more interesting to think about than gender politics. Like anything else.
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Feb 1, 2015 15:59
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Wolpertinger posted:Alex Hughes Mindspace series is pretty good Tried that, but dropped it a few chapters in. It hit another pet peeve of mine - junkies (and ex-junkies) don't make very interesting or sympathetic first-person points of view, in my opinion. Yes, yes, you really need a hit. Wow, you're so close to breaking down and getting a hit, this is fascinating. Okay, now you're beating yourself up about almost slipping up and getting a hit. My heart aches for you.
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Feb 1, 2015 16:53
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Khizan posted:The only female authors I can think of who are writing non-romance urban fantasy are Alex Hughes and Seanan McGuire, and McGuire's within sight of the romance border. Michelle Sagara's Cast is more Fantasy Police Procedural (it's set in it's own world, it follows the same police officer on the beat style) and has a distinct disdain for romance. Go check it out.
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Feb 1, 2015 16:58
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I just finished Neverwhere. It was really good. I went through it a little bit at a time, then powered on through the last half dozen chapters this afternoon. It's too bad Gaiman doesn't like sequels, because it's an interesting world he created here, one I think it would be fun to explore. I have American Gods but I'm thinking of saving it for when I have a long plane journey in a couple of months. I suppose I'll start Aaronovitch's series now. Must start re-reading Dresden from book one on, as well, but I'd prefer to try something new first. By the way, meant to ask, has anyone read Paul Cornell's book, London Falling? Is it any good? Much like with Aaronovitch, I'm only really familiar with Cornell through his Doctor Who work.
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Feb 1, 2015 19:05
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Metal Loaf posted:I just finished Neverwhere. It was really good. I went through it a little bit at a time, then powered on through the last half dozen chapters this afternoon. It's too bad Gaiman doesn't like sequels, because it's an interesting world he created here, one I think it would be fun to explore. I really liked both London Falling and its sequel, and they're generally like by the thread. They're much, much darker than Rivers of London or Dresden though.
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Feb 1, 2015 19:23
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Metal Loaf posted:I just finished Neverwhere. It was really good. I went through it a little bit at a time, then powered on through the last half dozen chapters this afternoon. It's too bad Gaiman doesn't like sequels, because it's an interesting world he created here, one I think it would be fun to explore. I've read both London Falling and the sequel. I'll probably buy the next one just to see what happens, but I didn't like it enough to recommend it wholeheartedly. That's just personal preference though, perhaps you'll like it for the same reasons I didn't. I haven't watched a lot of Doctor Who, but the books reminded me a lot of the show; lots of interesting characters, fast-paced action and interesting things happening, but the over-arching plot moves at a glacial pace and there's a lot of filler. Lots of hinting, not a lot of explaining. There were some bits in the second book especially that seemed to just be written to shock/depress the characters/readers without making a lot of sense, but I don't know if it was just poorly thought out or if there's some reason behind it that I haven't grasped.
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Feb 1, 2015 23:36
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TenaciousJ posted:There's plenty more interesting to think about than gender politics. Like anything else. Let me guess. It's about ethics in urban fantasy? I mean this is literally something brought up in the books so.. v  v
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Feb 1, 2015 23:48
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There's pages and pages of gender politics talk and none of the points are new. I have a half-formed theory that I don't completely buy about the black council. McCoy is a member or someone on it is manipulating him somehow, because he has benefitted a lot from the actions of the black council. He made it onto the senior council because a spot opened up due to a death. His reluctance to take it could be a smokescreen if he's on the black council, or if that is a genuine feeling, that wouldn't rule out unwitting manipulation. We still don't know what happened between McCoy and Harry's mom to make them estranged other than what McCoy said to Harry, and that was vague. We know his position as blackstaff lets him break the laws of magic, so he could easily have knowledge of the arts the black council uses. His protection of Harry could serve two purposes. Harry is no good as a chaotic element if he gets himself killed by the wardens. Harry also serves as a distraction to the council, since he continues to draw suspicion. I don't necessarily believe McCoy is a secret big bad but he has so many skeletons that I would not be shocked to see any of them come into play as the series draws towards its latter quarter and end trilogy.
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Feb 2, 2015 00:08
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TenaciousJ posted:There's pages and pages of gender politics talk and none of the points are new. Eh, I don't buy it. Honestly, I'd be surprised if anyone on the Senior Council is Black Council, other than maybe Cristos.
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Feb 2, 2015 00:24
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If I remember right, the Merlin said that McCoy had already refused a position on the senior council at some unspecified time, which is why he wasn't offered the job in Summer Knight (until he insisted). It would be a bit odd for him to murder his friend to get a job he'd already turned down at least once.
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Feb 2, 2015 00:37
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