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Anosmoman posted:Jesus christ the naturalistic fallacy is becoming more and more like a religion or cult. I think you meant the natural truth 
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Feb 2, 2015 17:07
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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ActusRhesus posted:My mother and I were just having this conversation the other day. The generation that thinks it's cool to not vaccinate is the generation that never had to see how awful these diseases can be. I am originally from Brazil. For a number of reasons probably too off-topic to discuss here, a lot of alternative medicine BS is very popular in Brazil (homeopathy, aromatherapy, etc.). Despite that amount of BS being popular, there is no anti-vaccination movement there to speak of. BCG, polio and MMR vaccines have coverage rates of at least 98%, and sometimes coverage exceeds 100% (I took the polio vaccine multiple times, for example). That is because everyone remembers the time pre-vaccines. Vaccination campaigns only took off in the 80s in Brazil, so everyone (including me) knows someone who had polio as a child. One of my college professors had a hosed up leg and walked with great difficulty because of it. So in Brazil people will throw away money on bach flower remedies and other hokum, but not one messes with vaccination.
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Feb 2, 2015 17:15
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Why should you need to see the diseases to believe they should be prevented? I've not personally seen smallpox or Ebola, but I'm really goddamn sure I don't want them.
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Feb 2, 2015 17:19
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PT6A posted:Why should you need to see the diseases to believe they should be prevented? I've not personally seen smallpox or Ebola, but I'm really goddamn sure I don't want them. Because you've been told that these diseases aren't that bad, and my friend's uncle's cousin's son is unvaccinated and they say that he's a million times healther than the other children so why should we let BIG PHARMA vaccinate them against rubella???
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Feb 2, 2015 17:23
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substitute posted:I'm a negative person so I image the politicization of this issue just turning into a clusterfuck of: left-wing vs. right-wing, conservative vs. liberal, REAL 'MERICANS vs. COMMIE TERRORISTS. And then we're ALL worse off. Yeah seriously, we're talking about people who will hate-eat fried food to spite the gays, or feed their kids poo poo to get back at Michelle Obama, or inhale diesel fumes to stick it to the EPA  The last thing we loving need is for vaccines to become a Real America vs Obama the Kenyan Terrorist Injecting Your Kids With Mercury thing.
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Feb 2, 2015 17:25
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PT6A posted:Why should you need to see the diseases to believe they should be prevented? I've not personally seen smallpox or Ebola, but I'm really goddamn sure I don't want them. It is not about "should." But no one is going to go "why should I inject poison in my kids to prevent a natural disease?" when they've seen what the natural disease can do. Not to mention that in the Brazil situation they can clearly see the effects of vaccination campaigns for themselves (tons of people got polio, we started vaccination, now no one has it). So you don't need to send them that graph that got posted here so many times about the introduction of the vaccine and the declining prevalence of the disease. They've seen the success for themselves, during their lifetime.
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Feb 2, 2015 17:30
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joepinetree posted:It is not about "should." But no one is going to go "why should I inject poison in my kids to prevent a natural disease?" when they've seen what the natural disease can do. Not to mention that in the Brazil situation they can clearly see the effects of vaccination campaigns for themselves (tons of people got polio, we started vaccination, now no one has it). So you don't need to send them that graph that got posted here so many times about the introduction of the vaccine and the declining prevalence of the disease. They've seen the success for themselves, during their lifetime. So what you're saying is you've got about 15 years before the kids who are now growing up with those diseases as just stories from funny old people have kids of their own and opt to boost their immune systems with jasmine tea and crystals instead of injecting scary chemicals into them.
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Feb 2, 2015 17:33
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VitalSigns posted:So what you're saying is you've got about 15 years before the kids who are now growing up with those diseases as just stories from funny old people have kids of their own and opt to boost their immune systems with jasmine tea and crystals instead of injecting scary chemicals into them. Maybe, though the Brazilian government doesn't gently caress around with regards to requiring vaccines for everything. You are not going to get an exemption easily there.
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Feb 2, 2015 17:40
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You'd better repeal those laws or else people will feel persecuted and they could do all kinds of crazy stuff like repeal those laws.
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Feb 2, 2015 17:41
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Military drones with vaccine-loaded needle guns. Now.
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Feb 2, 2015 17:57
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah seriously, we're talking about people who will hate-eat fried food to spite the gays, or feed their kids poo poo to get back at Michelle Obama, or inhale diesel fumes to stick it to the EPA Judging from the picture they seem like a self-solving problem 
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Feb 2, 2015 18:04
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blowfish posted:Judging from the picture they seem like a self-solving problem Unfortunately a lot of the groups who "roll coal" don't overlap that well with antivaxxers
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Feb 2, 2015 18:06
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QuarkJets posted:Unfortunately a lot of the groups who "roll coal" don't overlap that well with antivaxxers Extreme of one side meet the extreme of the other.
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Feb 2, 2015 18:08
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blowfish posted:Judging from the picture they seem like a self-solving problem Unfortunately anti-vaxxers are killing their kids and not themselves 
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Feb 2, 2015 18:13
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QuarkJets posted:Unfortunately a lot of the groups who "roll coal" don't overlap that well with antivaxxers CommieGIR posted:Extreme of one side meet the extreme of the other. Good news, Anti-Vaccination views are actually higher among conservative than liberals!  
Trabisnikof fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 18:16
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Trabisnikof posted:Good news, Anti-Vaccination views are actually higher among conservative than liberals! Yeah, its kind of split still: a lot of hardcore leftists support the Anti-GMO/Anti-Vaccine crowd. On the right, its just more people who are conspiracy theorists/preppers that buy goofy logic behind why vaccines are a government plot. A country boy can survive.
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Feb 2, 2015 18:26
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CommieGIR posted:Yeah, its kind of split still: a lot of hardcore leftists support the Anti-GMO/Anti-Vaccine crowd. On the right, its just more people who are conspiracy theorists/preppers that buy goofy logic behind why vaccines are a government plot. That might be true, but its clear that anti-vax isn't a left wing or hippie movement, its far broader than that. Just because you can find idiots of all political stripes doesn't mean much.
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Feb 2, 2015 18:33
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Trabisnikof posted:That might be true, but its clear that anti-vax isn't a left wing or hippie movement, its far broader than that. Just because you can find idiots of all political stripes doesn't mean much. Unfortunately, its the left wing hippie movement that is the most vocal when it comes to the anti-vaccine and anti-gmo feelings.
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Feb 2, 2015 18:35
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CommieGIR posted:Unfortunately, its the left wing hippie movement that is the most vocal when it comes to the anti-vaccine and anti-gmo feelings. Also anti-fluoride. The chemo-phobia runs real deep in that crowd.
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Feb 2, 2015 18:44
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CommieGIR posted:Unfortunately, its the left wing hippie movement that is the most vocal when it comes to the anti-vaccine and anti-gmo feelings. I don't really see that connection in the public eye, to be honest. It's not hippies, it's helicopter mom freaks like Jenny McCarthy. They have no ideology except HIDDEN DANGER!!!
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Feb 2, 2015 18:59
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It's also increasingly prevalent among libertarians, where it already had a pretty fertile ground.
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Feb 2, 2015 19:00
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MothraAttack posted:It's also increasingly prevalent among libertarians, where it already had a pretty fertile ground. Libertarians are fairly susceptible to snake oil as a general rule. It's why conservative sites/talk radio hawk gold and survival rations and seed banks and whatever else.
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Feb 2, 2015 19:02
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah seriously, we're talking about people who will hate-eat fried food to spite the gays, or feed their kids poo poo to get back at Michelle Obama, or inhale diesel fumes to stick it to the EPA Too late conservatives drew the battle lines pretty instantaneously, and Obama's 2008 statements are spreading because Christie were only a year later.
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Feb 2, 2015 19:04
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SedanChair posted:I don't really see that connection in the public eye, to be honest. It's not hippies, it's helicopter mom freaks like Jenny McCarthy. They have no ideology except HIDDEN DANGER!!! The helicopter mom movement is combining a lot with the 'crunch mom' movement, brings more of these vocal 'New-Age' parents out of the woodwork.
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Feb 2, 2015 19:05
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Trabisnikof posted:Good news, Anti-Vaccination views are actually higher among conservative than liberals! I see a lot of lefties ignoring the autism/Wakefield issue altogether and instead either scream about "injecting kids with poisons/toxins" or "Big Pharma is just making MONEY". It doesn't surprise me, as I see some anti-GMO folks are starting to drop the "safety" issue and instead focus on MONSATAN. Nothing more than moving goal posts.
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Feb 2, 2015 19:49
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Solkanar512 posted:I see a lot of lefties ignoring the autism/Wakefield issue altogether and instead either scream about "injecting kids with poisons/toxins" or "Big Pharma is just making MONEY". It doesn't surprise me, as I see some anti-GMO folks are starting to drop the "safety" issue and instead focus on MONSATAN. Nothing more than moving goal posts. Did you just ignore that data and keep plowing right along with your own personal narrative? There's no connection.
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Feb 2, 2015 19:52
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ToxicSlurpee posted:It's legal for me, an adult over 21, to get ragingly drunk if I really want to. I can get myself blackout drunk at home however often I want to. However, I cannot legally get ragingly blackout drunk and then drive my car somewhere because that puts others at danger. Vaccines are similar, in a way; do we make it illegal to remain unvaccinated? Obviously the solution is to license public interaction, to get a public interaction license, you have to be vaccinated. So you can be unvaccinated all you like so long as you never come into contact with another human being.
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Feb 2, 2015 19:55
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I really hope vaccination doesn't become a talking point in the election, I have zero-faith that the media will handle that correctly.
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Feb 2, 2015 20:04
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Trabisnikof posted:Good news, Anti-Vaccination views are actually higher among conservative than liberals! Please give us the source. VitalSigns posted:You'd better repeal those laws or else people will feel persecuted and they could do all kinds of crazy stuff like repeal those laws. Just so we're clear, if the law already exists and is effective and accepted, that's fine. It's when the law doesn't exist, and produces a negative response politicians and others can capitalize on, that it becomes a problem.
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Feb 2, 2015 20:09
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Anti Vaccine Views Have Little Correlation to Politics http://prospect.org/article/vaccine-fear-mongers-are-wrong-theyre-not-ideological http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2386034 http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2011/PPP_Release_National_ConspiracyTheories_040213.pdf http://www.people-press.org/2009/10/15/growing-interest-in-swine-flu-many-see-press-overstating-its-danger/ edit: I believe the public health concern of vaccination should trump the religious exemption. I have the following legal propositions: Harriet Hall, MD posted:The medical ethics principle of autonomy justifies letting competent adults reject lifesaving medical care for themselves because of their religious beliefs, but it does not extend to rejecting medical care for children. Laphroaig fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 20:37
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Trabisnikof posted:Good news, Anti-Vaccination views are actually higher among conservative than liberals! Your post presumes the autism myth is the only reason people are anti vax
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Feb 2, 2015 20:55
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SedanChair posted:Did you just ignore that data and keep plowing right along with your own personal narrative? There's no connection. No, I didn't. Given where you live, I'm rather surprised you haven't run into the same poo poo. EDIT: I've said it before and I'll say it again - it doesn't matter if this issue exists within multiple political ideologies across the nation as a whole. If anti-vaxxers carefully lived spread across the whole country they wouldn't be a problem! But they don't, they live clustered together. Is it so crazy to look at these specific communities and suggest that they might have specific political leanings? Solkanar512 fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 21:42
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Laphroaig posted:I believe the public health concern of vaccination should trump the religious exemption. I have the following legal propositions: The child's interests-parent's beliefs conflict is a really messy one that's as old as the Republic. It's very hard to tell consistently how courts will rule, especially at the Constitutional level.
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Feb 2, 2015 21:59
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Discendo Vox posted:The child's interests-parent's beliefs conflict is a really messy one that's as old as the Republic. It's very hard to tell consistently how courts will rule, especially at the Constitutional level. And considering how they have ruled in the past for groups like Christian Scientists, its hit or miss. They tend to respect the 'rights of the parents' until the child is already dead.
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Feb 2, 2015 22:00
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Solkanar512 posted:No, I didn't. Given where you live, I'm rather surprised you haven't run into the same poo poo. I posted this link the last time the "dirty hippies thing came up, but here's some more quotes. quote:Similarly, the issue of vaccine safety could be a matter of contention among identifiable subgroups within the general public. Commentators routinely advance this claim, too, variously attributing quote:There was a modest minority of respondents who held a negative orientation toward vaccines. quote:Existing universal vaccination policies appear to enjoy widespread support, but proposals to restrict existing grounds for exemption divide the public along partisan lines. Despite support for universal vaccination policies and widespread disapproval of parents who refuse to permit vaccination of their children based on concerns about vaccine risks, proposals to restrict or eliminate moral or
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Feb 2, 2015 22:21
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Solkanar512 posted:No, I didn't. Given where you live, I'm rather surprised you haven't run into the same poo poo. I have, but I didn't draw any conclusions about political alignment because I try not to proudly wear confirmation bias like a new hat.
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Feb 2, 2015 22:26
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SedanChair posted:I have, but I didn't draw any conclusions about political alignment because I try not to proudly wear confirmation bias like a new hat. Bahahahahahahaha
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Feb 2, 2015 22:32
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Has anyone read about this piece of poo poo? http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/jack-wolfson-vaccines-doctor-measles (bolding mine) quote:“I’m not going to sacrifice the well-being of my child. My child is pure,” Dr. Jack Wolfson said in the interview. “It’s not my responsibility to be protecting their child.” Also some pristine  quote:Wolfson was responding to a public appeal for all parents to vaccinate their children from Arizona pediatrician Dr. Tim Sacks, whose leukemia-stricken daughter was exposed to measles after an unvaccinated American family introduced the disease into the greater population during a trip to Disneyland. Remember, it is your right as an American Child to contract measels and mumps.
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Feb 2, 2015 22:34
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Ugh. Got into it on Facebook with somebody who made all sorts of concern troll arguments about vaccinations about how people should be "informed" and then argued any attempt to explain how she was misinformed. Apparently got a degree from the University of Google, including literally posting the Larry Wiltmore vid and swaying "yes what that lady said". I feel like the "I'm not anti-vax I just have concerns" is the same type of retreating position that climate deniers use now, instead of saying "well climate change is false", they're like "no it's real but totally natural and nothing to be concerned with".
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Feb 2, 2015 22:44
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SedanChair posted:I don't really see that connection in the public eye, to be honest. It's not hippies, it's helicopter mom freaks like Jenny McCarthy. They have no ideology except HIDDEN DANGER!!! It's also worth noting that Jenny McCarthy believes that her child is literally a wizard. No. Seriously. She refers to herself as an "indigo mom" and believes her child has magical powers.
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Feb 2, 2015 22:46
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