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Rincewind posted:This owns and the narrator seemed way too patronizing about it.
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Feb 2, 2015 16:40
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British Army Officer Mess drinking games. All I'm saying.
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Feb 2, 2015 16:42
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You just know that the disguised alien field biologists among us think it's some kind of fancy mating ritual.
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Feb 2, 2015 16:49
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Nenonen posted:You just know that the disguised alien field biologists among us think it's some kind of fancy mating ritual. How do you know it isn't?
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Feb 2, 2015 17:05
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Disinterested posted:How do you know it isn't?
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Feb 2, 2015 17:12
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Arquinsiel posted:I dunno, kind of has the vibe of a prank played on a newbie that they forgot to clue him in on, and then eventually that newbie was the top ranking NCO in the area and "THAT IS THE WAY IT IS DONE PRIVATE!" + 100 years = "tradition". Isn't it more plausible that the inherited british parade ground traditions + the strong enmity between the nations (necessitating a show of force, even if only ritual) combined to form the showdown?
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Feb 2, 2015 17:31
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Arquinsiel posted:Futurama made a strong point about that. I'm inclined to agree with them. Anyone who laughs is a communist.
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Feb 2, 2015 17:37
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Tias posted:Isn't it more plausible that the inherited british parade ground traditions + the strong enmity between the nations (necessitating a show of force, even if only ritual) combined to form the showdown?
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Feb 2, 2015 18:37
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I've never served  That said, it's the same on any workplace.I'm just questioning the fact that this absolutely HAS to be a joke that somehow got converted into military tradition, you guys are taking the long road around Occam's Razor that this is just a remnant of a legitimate military practice 
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Feb 2, 2015 19:17
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Tradition explains a lot of poo poo in almost any military on the earth at any time. The Royal Navy's rum ration was an example of this, so is practically any flag ceremony. There's probably a reason for tradition being followed so diligently, it's probably something related to order and decorum and precision.
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Feb 2, 2015 19:23
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FAUXTON posted:Tradition explains a lot of poo poo in almost any military on the earth at any time. The Royal Navy's rum ration was an example of this, so is practically any flag ceremony. There's probably a reason for tradition being followed so diligently, it's probably something related to order and decorum and precision. Or, as this forums seems to think, meaningless bullshit that needs to go away 
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Feb 2, 2015 19:52
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FAUXTON posted:Tradition explains a lot of poo poo in almost any military on the earth at any time. The Royal Navy's rum ration was an example of this, so is practically any flag ceremony. There's probably a reason for tradition being followed so diligently, it's probably something related to order and decorum and precision. Go to GiP and do a search for any post related to Chesty Puller.
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Feb 2, 2015 19:54
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chitoryu12 posted:Go to GiP and do a search for any post related to Chesty Puller. Okay maybe not every tradition.
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Feb 2, 2015 20:30
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Heh, his Wikipedia quotes. Bayonet on a flamethrower.
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Feb 2, 2015 20:39
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FAUXTON posted:Tradition explains a lot of poo poo in almost any military on the earth at any time. The Royal Navy's rum ration was an example of this, so is practically any flag ceremony. There's probably a reason for tradition being followed so diligently, it's probably something related to order and decorum and precision. It increases unit cohesion by giving soldiers a shared identity. Granted, this works a lot better if you're in the Queen's Own Light Buckfortshire Rifle Dragoon Guards, which has an unbroken line of tradition and battle honors going back to the 16th century than if you are in Reserve-Panzerbattalion 322, which was formed in 1956 and never deployed anywhere.
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Feb 2, 2015 20:42
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ArchangeI posted:Reserve-Panzerbattalion 322, which was formed in 1956 and never deployed anywhere. Oh but the lineage! Created as a Grenadierbattalion in '56, rerolled as HS30-less PzGrens in the early 60s, rerolled again as a Jägerbattalion with Struktur III, traded to a PzDiv in 1980, about 5 different HQs and bases from 1991 onwards...
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Feb 2, 2015 20:52
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Russia reformed some old regiments since "we were made from reluctant conscripts in 1991 woo" wasn't really that helpful for morale and trumpeting up Soviet army achievements wasn't politically viable.
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Feb 2, 2015 20:53
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Argas posted:
Yeah, in some sources they're 'OMG, ancient Chinese super weapon'. Even Wiki says 80 yards effective range and militarily useful. I have severe doubts. As you say, every video demonstration of one is distinctly unimpressive. Pitiful range and penetration. Might wound an unarmoured man at close range, but I'd say you'd be much more likely to piss him off than drop your target. They're not even fletched, mechanism won't allow it. How you'd shoot one 80 yards (which again, highly skeptical) without it tumbling I don't know.
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Feb 2, 2015 20:53
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ArchangeI posted:It increases unit cohesion by giving soldiers a shared identity. Granted, this works a lot better if you're in the Queen's Own Light Buckfortshire Rifle Dragoon Guards, which has an unbroken line of tradition and battle honors going back to the 16th century than if you are in Reserve-Panzerbattalion 322, which was formed in 1956 and never deployed anywhere. Or part of the American units that repeatedly get formed, disbanded, reformed, shoved into other units, reformed again with a different mission.... quote:Yeah, in some sources they're 'OMG, ancient Chinese super weapon'. Even Wiki says 80 yards effective range and militarily useful. I think they'd do their best as wall-mounted guns. Just set up a battery on a fortification and mag dump into an advancing army. At the very least, the hail of incoming fire should be demoralizing.
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Feb 2, 2015 21:15
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Deptfordx posted:Yeah, in some sources they're 'OMG, ancient Chinese super weapon'. Even Wiki says 80 yards effective range and militarily useful. Just theorizing here, but didn't Chinese emperors and warlords tend to field pretty massive armies? It's possible that they're more impressive when they're making GBS threads out an absolutely ridiculous amount of quarrels all together and landing solid hits by sheer luck. It might also be that due to the very size of those armies a lot of the troops tended not to be all that well-armored, which could make a weaker crossbow more useful.
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Feb 2, 2015 21:22
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Repeating crossbows in the hands of barely trained peasants in a siege probably wouldn't be deadly on its own but imagine getting tons and tons of them raining bolts while you're working on breaking through the gate or walls. There are illustrations of larger repeating crossbows used on emplacements but I haven't heard much about if they're historically accurate or not. I can see it being effective, as a wall gun won't need to worry about portability as much and can incorporate mechanisms to draw the string back enough that the bolts will be deadly. What makes the tiny repeating crossbow ridiculous is that it tends to be exaggerated to be as powerful as a normal crossbow but just as compact and portable. Tomn posted:Just theorizing here, but didn't Chinese emperors and warlords tend to field pretty massive armies? It's possible that they're more impressive when they're making GBS threads out an absolutely ridiculous amount of quarrels all together and landing solid hits by sheer luck. It might also be that due to the very size of those armies a lot of the troops tended not to be all that well-armored, which could make a weaker crossbow more useful. The issue with the repeating crossbow is that the range on that thing is so terrible that it wouldn't be worth its weight out in the field. Working the firing mechanism on the repeating crossbow also made it less accurate. Add in the fact that a lot of the external threats China faced through many of the dynasties were mounted cavalry who were often expert horse archers too. Argas fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 21:27
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IIRC, repeating crossbows originated from and were considerably more often used in southern China though. Far away from the steppe nomads that regularily plagued the north. All in all, they're not really more lethal than a normal crossbow even with the increased rate of fire. But when you have a unit of men all firing those things at another infantry formation, the sheer amount of stuff flying about is probably going to do a number on morale and cohesion. ANd as noted, they'd be pretty useful for either side in a siege.
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Feb 2, 2015 21:44
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chitoryu12 posted:Or part of the American units that repeatedly get formed, disbanded, reformed, shoved into other units, reformed again with a different mission.... You know, you could as well dump some big rocks or gallons of nightsoil on the dudes down there, to bigger effect. The crossbows that you're looking for are here. If there's one thing to be said about these it's, that it's a super simple mechanism, which is about the most complicated part on a crossbow. And that the prod is actually a short composite bow, not just horn and sinew. Power Khan fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 21:47
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Argas posted:
The Scene: Mongol archers gathered around the campfire after the summers campaign. 'So we rode up to about 50 yards away, you know point blank range. Then the whole mass of them started waving these handles up and down on these boxes they were carrying, and they started shooting out these little wooden sticks that reached about half way toward us. Then they looked really disappointed' 'So what did you do? 'Pyramid of skulls, you know the usual'.
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Feb 2, 2015 21:58
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Here's some hypertexted material purportedly taken from an early 20th Century book about the history of the crossbow. http://www.atarn.org/chinese/rept_xbow.htm It has got a few diagrams, a description of the crossbow's drawbacks as a weapon, and just enough racism to make you uncomfortable. The author also claims that the Chinese used repeating crossbows against the Japanese during the First Sino-Japanese war. I'm not so sure of that- based on my (extremely limited) knowledge of the Beiyang Army, their problem wasn't so much lack of modern equipment as much as it was abysmal leadership and training. Glow Sticks fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 22:07
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There's a pic of some coastal fortification that was taken after some british sailors stormed it in some war, where there's one of these repeating crossbows lying on the parapet. Boxer rebellion or something? I didn't save it, but it's out there. The photographer was famous for his shots of battles, he'd rearrange how corpses were lying, to make it look more dramatic.
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Feb 2, 2015 22:18
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JaucheCharly posted:There's a pic of some coastal fortification that was taken after some british sailors stormed it in some war, where there's one of these repeating crossbows lying on the parapet. Boxer rebellion or something? I didn't save it, but it's out there. The photographer was famous for his shots of battles, he'd rearrange how corpses were lying, to make it look more dramatic. Most photographers do this with non-corpse objects, the guy was just real dedicated to his Art.
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Feb 2, 2015 22:21
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JaucheCharly posted:There's a pic of some coastal fortification that was taken after some british sailors stormed it in some war, where there's one of these repeating crossbows lying on the parapet. Boxer rebellion or something? I didn't save it, but it's out there. The photographer was famous for his shots of battles, he'd rearrange how corpses were lying, to make it look more dramatic. The Taku forts from the second opium war, iirc.
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Feb 2, 2015 22:35
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Mid 19th century Qing were basically medieval in terms of equipment, so that makes sense Alexander Gardner allegedly moved corpses in some of the iconic civil war photographs. E.g., 
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Feb 2, 2015 22:49
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In Civilization V, the Chinese repeating crossbow has the same range as a regular crossbow (enough to shoot across small lakes and bays) but with a faster rate of fire. Then China can issue Gatling guns to crossbowmen, resulting in Gatling guns that shoot twice as fast. I'm working on a combat mod that makes the repeating crossbow have shorter range, be more powerful than the crossbow at close range, and it won't give double firing rate once upgraded into a machine gun.
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Feb 2, 2015 23:36
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Glow Sticks posted:Alexander Gardner allegedly moved corpses in some of the iconic civil war photographs. E.g., What is seldom brought up about that photo is that Gardner had been carrying that corpse with him since the battle of Fredericksburg only waiting for a fitting scene.
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Feb 2, 2015 23:59
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Tias posted:I've never served Yeah, but is that specific stuff honourable or glorious outside the context of that one example? Tautologically speaking the various ceremonies are now, obviously, honourable and glorious, but were they thus because of the actions performed or the context they are performed in providing them with said in the original instance? VVVV Arquinsiel fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Feb 3, 2015 |
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Feb 3, 2015 00:13
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Arquinsiel posted:The problem with claiming "Occam's Razor" is that you have to find some logical military reason for such a silly procedure originating in the first place...
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Feb 3, 2015 00:25
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The Zhuge nu had heavier versions used in stationary positions or with two-man teams during sieges, similar to Roman and Greek ballistae. However, it was probably more prevalent as a home-defense and police weapon, where its limited range (edit: 10-20m for killing power) was less important.
Effectronica fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Feb 3, 2015 |
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Feb 3, 2015 01:12
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 I know poo poo all about Napoleonic armies. Is John Cleese's grenadier clone here French, Prussian or what?
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Feb 3, 2015 02:21
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Azran posted:
Prussian Grenadier-Garde von Retzow No 6: picture by Adolph Menzel as part of his series of pictures ‘Die Armee Friedrichs des Grossen in ihrer Uniformierung’. So it's pre-Napoleonic.
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Feb 3, 2015 02:25
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Arquinsiel posted:My "elbow grease" one comes from the sea scouts where a bunch of us "were cubs last week" were sent off up the beach with bucket and spade to dig some up. Some of them work better than others. The more ancient an organisation and complex a trade the more likely people are to have this kind of shenanigan. The problem with claiming "Occam's Razor" is that you have to find some logical military reason for such a silly procedure originating in the first place, while on the other hand, as you pointed out, dicking with the new guy happens everywhere. It's not implausible that there's a really unique and specific reason for all of the insane traditions in the world, just as it's not a guarantee that there is one either. HEY GAL posted:Honor and glory are logical military reasons to do things, for many cultures. I'd be willing to bet that the ceremony started out as some dudes standing to attention while the flags got lowered - the sort of thing that happens in every military that has pre-20th century traditions. It then would have built up in a kind of ceremonial arms race. Apparently, it's been going on since 1959, which is plenty of time for bored garrison troops to slowly compound all sorts of new stuff into the ceremony.
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Feb 3, 2015 02:50
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Hogge Wild posted:Prussian Grenadier-Garde von Retzow No 6: picture by Adolph Menzel as part of his series of pictures ‘Die Armee Friedrichs des Grossen in ihrer Uniformierung’. Those pope hats are iconically pre-Napoleonic, everybody except the Russians had switched to sensible shakos or bearskins. Didn't help the Russian reputation.
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Feb 3, 2015 02:57
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Not that it mattered. A regiment got to keep theirs in the Napoleonic Wars for bad rear end conduct in a battle. Most Line Grenadiers moved onto shako or bearskins as the grenades themselves were pretty pants for the tactics of the time*. *Not counting boarding parties for ship skirmishes. Also, Victorian era Swedish uniforms for anyone who cares!
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Feb 3, 2015 03:15
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Hogge Wild posted:Prussian Grenadier-Garde von Retzow No 6: picture by Adolph Menzel as part of his series of pictures ‘Die Armee Friedrichs des Grossen in ihrer Uniformierung’. It's Harvey Korman in a ridiculous outfit is what it is.
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Feb 3, 2015 03:26
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