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Keep in mind that just because it's a high COL area doesn't mean pay reflects that. An accountant in Dallas isn't going to be making 50% as much as one in NY.
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Jan 27, 2015 20:31
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whitey delenda est posted:Reading through most of the posts here we're on the right track, I would just like a sanity check: Unless getting out of bumfuck is worth the 15% pay cut for her, respond with more than 140% of what they offered and negotiate down to that point. Don't forget that both your incomes will be clobbered by the move because you'll be living in NYC with the higher COL too. If they balk, you lost: a) A nice opportunity to relocate to a city you might enjoy living in. b) A huge decrease in your disposable income. Don't sweat it too much.
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Jan 28, 2015 15:45
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What kind of room can one expect to negotiate on promotions within the same organization? Company I am with wants to make me salary and offered 220% over my current base. That sounds good except I already work 70 hour weeks and I would be expected to maintain work output. The other benefits would include increases to my bonus and stock reward but my company has these really screwed up formulas for determining how much everyone actually gets from this and it never ends up being >50% of what is promised (like setting the price of the stock 500% above market value at the time of issue). Essentailly , I feel as if the offer they have provided is marginal considering the position would require me to take on more responsibility. Would it be against my interest to counter their offer and what drawbacks could I be facing?
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Jan 28, 2015 21:01
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JohnGalt posted:What kind of room can one expect to negotiate on promotions within the same organization? Company I am with wants to make me salary and offered 220% over my current base. That sounds good except I already work 70 hour weeks and I would be expected to maintain work output. The other benefits would include increases to my bonus and stock reward but my company has these really screwed up formulas for determining how much everyone actually gets from this and it never ends up being >50% of what is promised (like setting the price of the stock 500% above market value at the time of issue). Sounds like you're transitioning from hourly to salaried? That's certainly enough of a change to demand some negotiation. Given the practices you're describing, it doesn't sound like this company feels a lot of pressure to retain people. In your situation, I would aggressively negotiate due the basis of the hours they've been getting and the additional compensation. But saying "Your bonus structure sucks." isn't going to be a winning negotiating tactic, so I'd keep it to the hours mostly. If they don't play ball, you don't have to move to salaried... ... but they don't have to keep paying you to work there. If they balk during negotiation I would definitely start lining up an exit plan because there's a very real chance they'll decide they're done with you. So basically, if you think you can find another job, then yes, do negotiate. If you don't think so, then you might want to take what they're offering and work on a way out of there or competing offer to use as leverage for renegotiating your salary.
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Jan 29, 2015 01:01
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:
Thanks for all the input everyone, as an update, we got clarification on benefits (which are superb) and she's going to email them her number (which with some additional calculation and consideration is now only like a 30% increase on their offer) tomorrow. I'll let y'all know how it turns out.
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Jan 29, 2015 02:12
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:
Kinda what I am afraid of. The price of oil basically means I cant be picky about work though. I might push a little and suck it up when they push back.
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Jan 29, 2015 02:23
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Some long-term planning here- how would my current pay & compensation influence an offer I get from another company? I'm probably leaving my current job (1.5 years there right now) this year where I am paid hourly and make just under $40k* a year (that number doesn't include OT, which I get pretty regularly). However for my educational background (MS in Chemistry) the national average is $50k, and I would definitely want to at least be at that number at my next job if not more since now I have some work experience. If a potential employer hears that I'm making way less than the supposed average, are they going to think they can pick me up for cheap and give me a lowball offer? Would they even have access to that number unless I gently caress up and give it to them? *My current company prices their benefits package at $17k a year, and it is pretty dope and I acknowledge that it's part of my overall compensation. But as someone who's always been healthy and fit but has $30k in debt and is trying to get married, I would much rather have the money up front than save on the few co-pays I have each year. I also don't know how they quantify that 17k number.
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Jan 31, 2015 19:18
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Don't tell them what you make, if they already have an idea of what people at your company make and offer you less than 50k, insist on a higher salary. Also people with a master's in chemistry only make 50k? I thought STEM was where it's at.
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Jan 31, 2015 19:22
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whitey delenda est posted:Thanks for all the input everyone, as an update, we got clarification on benefits (which are superb) and she's going to email them her number (which with some additional calculation and consideration is now only like a 30% increase on their offer) tomorrow. I'll let y'all know how it turns out. Closure: company met her halfway with a 22.5% increase on their initial offer, guess we're moving to NYC :3 Now to sell off or give away half our stuff... Thanks for the support yall!
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Jan 31, 2015 19:26
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whitey delenda est posted:Closure: company met her halfway with a 22.5% increase on their initial offer, guess we're moving to NYC :3 Enjoy! I just moved here myself and it's pretty awesome! Though, like everyone said, prepare for a drop in disposable income. It's more expensive than you expect going in.
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Jan 31, 2015 19:37
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Xandu posted:Don't tell them what you make, if they already have an idea of what people at your company make and offer you less than 50k, insist on a higher salary. That' s the number I saw for 2013 and it might have been for new, fresh out of grad school hires. No idea how much it's changed.
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Jan 31, 2015 20:07
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C-Euro posted:That' s the number I saw for 2013 and it might have been for new, fresh out of grad school hires. No idea how much it's changed. Do some more research then. Try to get a number more specific to the field you're in, rather than just 'chemists'. Remember that a number that broad is going to encompass the range of people that shouldn't have graduated all the way up to the ones on their way to a career in research or whatever. You can usually also expect to see a fairly significant jump over a starting salary as companies are generally willing to pay much more for someone who's proven they know how to work.
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Jan 31, 2015 21:29
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Xandu posted:Don't tell them what you make, if they already have an idea of what people at your company make and offer you less than 50k, insist on a higher salary. STEM means computer science.
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Jan 31, 2015 21:38
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I've interviewed for a technical writing job with a utility company I work for. I'm currently in the call center, but 80-100% of my day is spent writing and editing correspondence and dealing with people doing the same. Unfortunately that responsibility doesn't come with any kind of title change, so on paper I'm still a customer service agent. The job posting listed the hiring range as ~51k-65k. I'm worried that the offer will come in way on the low end of that range. I've been with the company for 7 years and have 4 years of those working with correspondence. Coming from a customer service position vs a technical writing background and them knowing exactly what I make (slightly less than the starting range) will limit my negotiating possibilities. They provided a editing/html assessment to complete and turn in at the time of the interview. I think the actual interview went well and one of the women I interviewed with told me I crushed the assessment, so I think I have a good shot at getting the job. I'm hoping my time with the company and related experience will get me over the midpoint, but I'm not sure.
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Feb 1, 2015 03:28
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Kalenn Istarion posted:Do some more research then. Try to get a number more specific to the field you're in, rather than just 'chemists'. Remember that a number that broad is going to encompass the range of people that shouldn't have graduated all the way up to the ones on their way to a career in research or whatever. You can usually also expect to see a fairly significant jump over a starting salary as companies are generally willing to pay much more for someone who's proven they know how to work. Do you have any resources you'd recommend to that end? I'm in QC/QA and definitely don't want to be doing that the rest of my life (or even at my next job), so a number for that specific field is less worthwhile for me when I don't want to be in that field.
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Feb 1, 2015 06:29
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C-Euro posted:Do you have any resources you'd recommend to that end? I'm in QC/QA and definitely don't want to be doing that the rest of my life (or even at my next job), so a number for that specific field is less worthwhile for me when I don't want to be in that field. Then you need to get a reference for the jobs you'll be applying to. Point is you want as specific a comparison as possible without it being a negative bias for negotiations (if going more specific gives you a lower number, be less specific!). As for a specific source for salaries, the best source is people you know with similar jobs. Alternatively, glassdoor is a site everyone here seems to use ( I've never used it), although most vokuntary disclosure sources for salary are biased high, so think of that as an upper target rather than a floor. You could also look at industry trade associations. For example, the CFA institute (a finance thing) does a salary survey of all of its members and provides that to membership free of charge. Accountants are similar. The CFA survey is broken up in a number of ways including demographics, job title, and industry, for example. Just do some googling and you will probably find lots more options.
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Feb 1, 2015 12:29
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I interviewed multiple times with a company. When it came time to discuss salary, they won the "get the other person to name a number first" game, and I gave them an honest number for what I would need to even consider another opportunity. The response was that the position was budgeted for much less than that (a substantial amount less). I later responded via email to say, "thanks but no thanks". They're acting shocked and saying that the budget is not actually what they told me. Am I out of line to have walked away? Maybe this is the way the negotiating game is supposed to be played, and I'm woefully unprepared. Which is fine, it is what it is and I guess I'll learn from my mistakes and prepare myself to get lied to every time going forward, but to be deceptive like that is something that bothers me and gives me a poor impression of the company itself (e.g. "What else will they misrepresent?").
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Feb 2, 2015 20:52
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Sand Monster posted:I interviewed multiple times with a company. When it came time to discuss salary, they won the "get the other person to name a number first" game, and I gave them an honest number for what I would need to even consider another opportunity. The response was that the position was budgeted for much less than that (a substantial amount less). I later responded via email to say, "thanks but no thanks". They're acting shocked and saying that the budget is not actually what they told me. Am I out of line to have walked away? Maybe this is the way the negotiating game is supposed to be played, and I'm woefully unprepared. Which is fine, it is what it is and I guess I'll learn from my mistakes and prepare myself to get lied to every time going forward, but to be deceptive like that is something that bothers me and gives me a poor impression of the company itself (e.g. "What else will they misrepresent?"). TL;DR: No you're fine and did exactly what you were supposed to When they said the position was budgeted for much less than that they were using a soft-deny; it's a kind of weasel wordy challenge to see if you will drop your initial number with a statement that sounds like they can't make it work. Of course, they can adjust their budget and ex post facto to fit you into it if they really like you. The way they followed does show a lot about the character of their HR department. As you probably know, once you're hired you don't have to deal with HR a ton. Once you grow a spine you'll sometimes let opportunities go on price. Two years ago I interviewed with a local place that had an awesome vibe. They got interested in working with me and after some time the founders and I sat down, they said "How much do you want?" I quoted my price, and they said that they could use my skills and experience, but couldn't afford me when I knew what I was worth. I told them that's fine and if they find themselves with the budget to make it work later, to get back in touch. They never did get back in touch, but there's plenty of people out there who will just outright tell you that they can't afford you honestly and that's it.
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Feb 2, 2015 21:04
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Sand Monster posted:I interviewed multiple times with a company. When it came time to discuss salary, they won the "get the other person to name a number first" game, and I gave them an honest number for what I would need to even consider another opportunity. The response was that the position was budgeted for much less than that (a substantial amount less). I later responded via email to say, "thanks but no thanks". They're acting shocked and saying that the budget is not actually what they told me. Am I out of line to have walked away? Maybe this is the way the negotiating game is supposed to be played, and I'm woefully unprepared. Which is fine, it is what it is and I guess I'll learn from my mistakes and prepare myself to get lied to every time going forward, but to be deceptive like that is something that bothers me and gives me a poor impression of the company itself (e.g. "What else will they misrepresent?"). By the sound of it I think you did everything right, and sometimes that just means that you won't come to a mutually agreeable offer. Remember that you're interviewing and negotiating with them, too, and the goal isn't necessarily to close the deal every time, but to find a good skills/compensation/cultural fit. When you have skills and experience that can command higher compensation (assuming the numbers are indeed based in reality) you have every right to walk away. In fact, by not walking away you'd be devaluing those skills and experience. Guinness fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 21:13
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Sand Monster posted:I interviewed multiple times with a company. When it came time to discuss salary, they won the "get the other person to name a number first" game, and I gave them an honest number for what I would need to even consider another opportunity. The response was that the position was budgeted for much less than that (a substantial amount less). I later responded via email to say, "thanks but no thanks". They're acting shocked and saying that the budget is not actually what they told me. Am I out of line to have walked away? Maybe this is the way the negotiating game is supposed to be played, and I'm woefully unprepared. Which is fine, it is what it is and I guess I'll learn from my mistakes and prepare myself to get lied to every time going forward, but to be deceptive like that is something that bothers me and gives me a poor impression of the company itself (e.g. "What else will they misrepresent?"). I'm curious. Did they name a price or did they just say that they had budgeted substantially less?
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Feb 2, 2015 21:14
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Sand Monster posted:I interviewed multiple times with a company. When it came time to discuss salary, they won the "get the other person to name a number first" game, and I gave them an honest number for what I would need to even consider another opportunity. The response was that the position was budgeted for much less than that (a substantial amount less). I later responded via email to say, "thanks but no thanks". They're acting shocked and saying that the budget is not actually what they told me. Am I out of line to have walked away? Maybe this is the way the negotiating game is supposed to be played, and I'm woefully unprepared. Which is fine, it is what it is and I guess I'll learn from my mistakes and prepare myself to get lied to every time going forward, but to be deceptive like that is something that bothers me and gives me a poor impression of the company itself (e.g. "What else will they misrepresent?"). If I understand you correctly, the interaction was the following: 1) You gave them a number. 2) They responded with a much lower number. 3) You walked. My impression is that they were testing how firm you were in that initial number you gave them and were trying to pull that number lower. If you have a job you like, or another offer you are willing to take instead of theirs, the (slightly) better play would have been to reiterate your initial offer and mention you're firm on that number. It accomplishes the same thing as walking away and it makes them say "no". Negotiating money is straightforward and doesn't take much effort, so it is hard to see a situation in which closing the door yourself is the best move.
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Feb 2, 2015 21:21
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Just to clarify, did they try to counter after you walked? Nothing wrong with not accepting a low paying job, though.
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Feb 2, 2015 21:33
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Thanks for all of the responses, everyone! I appreciate your taking the time to reply.Boot and Rally posted:If I understand you correctly, the interaction was the following: I have a job I am comfortable with, I was just exploring other opportunities that may have had the potential for being the right fit. See below for how the actual interaction took place. You make a good point that I didn't accomplish anything by walking away, apart from the (admittedly worthless) intangibles of "sticking to my guns" or whatever. MickeyFinn posted:I'm curious. Did they name a price or did they just say that they had budgeted substantially less? (after the back and forth trying to get the other side to name a number) Me: "The salary would need to be [number] for me to even consider leaving where I'm at." Them: "Well, we're budgeted at [my number minus a substantial amount] for the position." Me: "I see. Well, that would actually represent a decrease from what I am currently earning." Them: "We can try to get more from HR for the position, but -" [proceed to try and sell me on taking the job anyway, discussing non-compensation related advantages, etc.] I am in full agreement with everything you said and that is exactly how I felt. Dwight Eisenhower posted:The way they followed does show a lot about the character of their HR department. As you probably know, once you're hired you don't have to deal with HR a ton. Once you grow a spine you'll sometimes let opportunities go on price. To clarify, the salary conversation was with the person I would be reporting to, and I have not dealt with HR at all. Xandu posted:Just to clarify, did they try to counter after you walked? No, they just sent me a response saying that the budget they told me was actually not the real budget (which bothers me; I was up front with them, but they weren't up front with me?).
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Feb 2, 2015 21:41
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He wasn't upfront with you because he's a poor negotiator relying on blaming someone else to make himself the winner in a negotiation. It's like when you put down on offer on a car and the sales says he's going to talk to the Manager, but really he just makes himself a cup of coffee and comes back because he'd earn exactly no money on your offer. The hiring manager has an incentive to keep your salary as low as possible, probably in some form or another from HR or his department budget.
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Feb 2, 2015 21:48
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Sand Monster posted:Thanks for all of the responses, everyone! I appreciate your taking the time to reply. The guy sounds like he wanted to try getting cheap hires. As above, it sounds like the guy messed up his initial position. The process for under-cutting wages is the following: Optional) Prospective hire gives a number. 1) HR make initial low ball. 2) Prospective hire counters. 3) HR hems and haws, comes up a little. 4) Prospective hire counters. 5) At some point person who needs the prospective hire decides what the prospective hire is worth and "saves the day" or "sticks his neck out" for the new hire, or says no.
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Feb 2, 2015 22:00
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Sand Monster posted:To clarify, the salary conversation was with the person I would be reporting to, and I have not dealt with HR at all.
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Feb 2, 2015 22:00
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:Yeah gently caress him, slam the door closed, don't stop looking if you're still open to other offers from other companies. Yep, gently caress that. If he's willing to double deal with a party he doesn't know, imagine what he'd be like to work with when he's your boss?
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Feb 2, 2015 23:24
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Sand Monster posted:
I think if you were otherwise interested in the job, that would be a stupid reason to walk away. If you don't care that much, then don't bother, but if you were pretty interested in the position, I'd use that as an opportunity to ask again if they can meet your initial salary request.
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Feb 3, 2015 00:52
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Xandu posted:I think if you were otherwise interested in the job, that would be a stupid reason to walk away. As I acknowledged in my original post, perhaps I'm simply uninformed on what is to be expected during the hiring process, but outright lying to me (if that's what they did, which I suspect it is) does not seem like a stupid reason to walk away to me. Like the poster above you stated, if that's the impression they give me during the hiring process, what would it be like to actually work there? I know there's been a fair bit of turnover there in recent years and perhaps this is a red flag that those people ignored?
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Feb 3, 2015 02:06
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It's certainly not a good introduction and the guy who told you that should have known what would happen if someone called him on it, but I'm personally willing to forgive a fair amount in salary negotiations as long as they end up at a decent final result, provided everything else looks good. If there's other issues, like turnover, then by all means, walk away, but in negotiations you are trying to get the most money possible and they're trying to give you the least while still being able to hire you. That guy was hoping you'd lower your requirements and counter and then you'd probably meet somewhere in between, instead you walked away. Which is totally valid, but I wouldn't take it as a personal affront that you were lied to.
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Feb 3, 2015 02:12
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C-Euro posted:Do you have any resources you'd recommend to that end? I'm in QC/QA and definitely don't want to be doing that the rest of my life (or even at my next job), so a number for that specific field is less worthwhile for me when I don't want to be in that field. http://www.acs.org/content/dam/acsorg/careers/salaries/acs-salary-report2014.pdf
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Feb 3, 2015 11:55
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Hey thanks chem buddy  This is a super-depressing read for me but I guess it's motivation to get a great offer at my next job. Now that I've spoken at length about how to get a better offer when I leave my current company, what's a general timeline on hearing about performance-based raises from one's current employer? I get that it varies from company to company, but I had my year-end review in mid-December of last year and got very good marks on everything. Then my boss pulled me aside a couple weeks ago to say that he had to adjust our department's review scores to be more in-line with HR's desired scale, but even then I had the best score in the department and "one of the highest in the company" (the first I genuinely believe, the second I have no idea). It's now February and I haven't heard anything, does this sound like a typical case? Last year I did hear from a multi-year employee in my department that because we aren't classified as a revenue-generating department we are low priority for any sort of compensation increase, but I also have my one-year anniversary with the company next week so maybe they are waiting until then to tell me? But then again I heard our production staff already got their raises so now I'm not sure. Sorry if this doesn't belong here, the "Asking for a raise" thread was archived. C-Euro fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Feb 4, 2015 |
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Feb 4, 2015 14:01
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If your company does not link performance reviews to annual raises then you need to push for one yourself.
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Feb 4, 2015 14:51
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asur posted:If your company does not link performance reviews to annual raises then you need to push for one yourself. As far as I'm aware raises are linked to performance reviews. I even asked my boss about it during my review and was met with a general "we have get everyone's reviews done and then executive leadership needs to see how much money we have to go around"; my review was done a couple weeks before everyone else's as I was out of town for the last two weeks of 2014, so I was ahead of schedule in a sense. Maybe he was yanking my chain, maybe he earnestly believed that, maybe we had a bad year last year, who knows. Is there a polite way to inquire about this sort of thing? My boss has had nothing but great things to say about and I'm counting on a glowing letter of recommendation whenever I leave (there's a good chance I'm moving out of the area this spring / summer anyway), and I'd like to preserve that as best as possible. This is also the first time I've been in a position to get a raise (last job was being a grad student) so it's a new experience in general.
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Feb 4, 2015 15:50
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Our reviews are in December, we find out about raises and bonuses in March. I would just ask people who have been around a few years as I am sure they know.
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Feb 4, 2015 16:21
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I would just ask then. There isn't anything wrong with following up on something he said and if they link performance reviews and raises then they should also tell you if you received no raise, at least my company will.
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Feb 4, 2015 16:26
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OK so I got an offer for a new position that I would like to take. The position itself is interesting, in an organization that has good benefits and opportunities for advancement etc. Plus I really liked the hiring managers I interviewed with. The problem is that the salary range is broad. Minimum is ~40k less than I am earning now, max is on par with my current salary. I thought that she had told me earlier that the minimum for this particular role was toward the top end of the salary range ($x). I'd be willing to take a small cut to get into this position as it would be less stress, and better working conditions than where I am now so the figure I thought she had told me before I went in to interview was OK as a minimum negotiating point for me. I just got the call from the HR rep to offer the position and I was honestly a little surprised when she offered me the minimum of the salary range, I told her that I could not accept at that level. She asked me what the minimum I could accept is and I fumbled a little and said that while I was willing to negotiate a bit lower than what I am on now I couldn't take the minimum. I also said that I thought she had mentioned the minimum for the position was $x. She said that she had not told me that. She asked what I was on and so I told her my salary in a moment of actual confusion. I was thrown by what she said about the minimum not being $x. I don't know where I got that figure from if she did not tell me, I definitely did not just make it up. I feel like I already hosed this up and I need to reset it somehow. She asked me to call back tomorrow to give her the minimum I would need to accept the position. I already feel like this is framing it wrong - I don't want to settle for my minimum for this position. I do want to accept the offer, but obviously as much money as I can. How do I do this? If I call tomorrow and tell her I feel like we got off on the wrong foot for negotiations, and advise her that I would be willing to accept the position for $current salary and if that doesn't fit their budget to please get back to me with a counter offer, would that be acceptable?
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Feb 4, 2015 23:40
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GanjamonII posted:
I'm not convinced you did anything wrong, they offered you the minimum salary and that wasn't acceptable and you told them so. But yes I think your strategy is correct at this point. You are looking for $x, if that doesn't fit into their budget, then you are open to a counter offer, but it has to be higher than their last offer. You're in no way obligated to tell her "the minimum" that you'll accept. That's not a fair way to frame it. It does sound like you might be out of their range, though. So you might just have to be okay passing on it.
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Feb 4, 2015 23:50
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Xandu posted:I'm not convinced you did anything wrong, they offered you the minimum salary and that wasn't acceptable and you told them so. But yes I think your strategy is correct at this point. You are looking for $x, if that doesn't fit into their budget, then you are open to a counter offer, but it has to be higher than their last offer. You're in no way obligated to tell her "the minimum" that you'll accept. That's not a fair way to frame it. I missed it in the original post but I said something like 'I thought minimum was $x which I was OK with ' or something like that so already kind of indicating it would be my minimum. I will call her back tomorrow and try to phrase all of it eloquently. In terms of being out of their range - maybe the case, but the market rate for this kind of position is somewhere towards the top end of their range anyway.
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Feb 5, 2015 00:10
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And you could even be explicit and say that you'd be willing to accept the top end of their range.
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Feb 5, 2015 00:14
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