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precision posted:You can't really do any exploration in FF10 until the very last chapter either, unless you like absolutely batshit insane backtracking. And people complained a whole lot about that a decade ago. But since it's stopped being the newest game in the series, nobody cares anymore.
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Feb 2, 2015 22:49
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precision posted:I suppose this might be a bad thing on a second playthrough or in retrospect, but if you go into it not knowing any better why would you dock it points for doing the same thing that FF4, one of the most beloved titles in the series, did? FF4 is just as linear as FF13, despite the illusion of freedom granted by the first and second airships, and certainly has far more character customization items with the Equipment and Paradigm systems. FF4 has some illusion of choice "you can walk anywhere on the map! but there's only one place to go" with three obvious exceptions - the Sylph Caves, the Land of Summoned Monsters, and all the bonus battles on the Moon. It is very linear though, true. I think the main reasons it gets a pass on that while 13 doesn't is that it's a much quicker game with simple charming characters and a well-executed redemption story. It's also like 22 years old so I guess we expect more from the newer entries. bloodychill fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 22:54
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Do you realize, guys, that right now the 12-year-olds who played 13 as their first ff are becoming adults, so in a few short years we're gonna have people arguing that every other ff was poo poo and more ffs in the future need to be like it And I will laugh and laugh and laugh and laugh
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Feb 2, 2015 22:55
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I can't think of any mainline FF that is really nonlinear in any fashion, after the first game. The plots are entirely on rails, and while in some you can go off and poke your nose into other areas, the enemies there will often deter you from actually doing so (II is real bad with that), and the plot will stand dead still until you go to the place you're supposed to be. Even sidequests don't really break it up, since they're almost always behind plot locked gates, even if once you pass that point in the plot, you can go do it whenever afterwards.
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Feb 2, 2015 22:55
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AngryRobotsInc posted:I can't think of any mainline FF that is really nonlinear in any fashion, after the first game lightning returns
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Feb 2, 2015 22:59
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Uh 12 is pretty nonlinear because the story literally stops happening once you get past the tomb if raithwall and it just becomes a gently caress around and do hunts game
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Feb 2, 2015 22:59
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The most open-ended mainline FF game is FF12 and isn't it notorious for being the least popular in both Japan and the West?
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Feb 2, 2015 23:00
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corn in the bible posted:lightning returns Ah, I haven't played that one yet. Been meaning to give it a try sometime in the near future.
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Feb 2, 2015 23:00
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Lightning Returns is the best and worst FF game. It should be experienced, for sure. e: FF13-2 is also pretty nonlinear but in a way that's more annoying than cool, but it's still a good game
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Feb 2, 2015 23:03
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It's nowhere near the worst ff game, because ff9 is a game that exists
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Feb 2, 2015 23:03
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FF9 is pretty awesome until Disc 3 or so and then the writers decided to take all the drugs
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Feb 2, 2015 23:05
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precision posted:The most open-ended mainline FF game is FF12 and isn't it notorious for being the least popular in both Japan and the West? I don't know if it's the least popular but it's definitely one of the more divisive games. I'm not sure if the non-linear nature of the game is the cause of that. 15 looks like it might be as non-linear but I guess we'll see how it turns out.
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Feb 2, 2015 23:05
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How does Mystic Quest hold up? I was very underwhelmed when I first played it, but I played it after Final Fantasy 4 and was outraged it didn't have a "proper" world map.
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Feb 2, 2015 23:05
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I wanted to like IX, I really did. But my god, the loading times. And the slow rear end battles. I also have utterly despised the "Learn abilities from weapons" system in every game that has used it.
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Feb 2, 2015 23:06
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triplexpac posted:How does Mystic Quest hold up? Mystic Quest isn't as easy as everyone says it is, but it's really held back by the two-man party and magic is so horrendously overpowered that the back half of the game is a joke that really only tests how patient you are. That said, it's a quick romp and you can be done with the whole thing in about 10 hours if you know what you're doing, so give it a shot.
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Feb 2, 2015 23:08
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One would have hoped that PS1 Classics could somehow magically have better load times than playing a PS1 game from disc but no, FF9 still takes motherfucking 15 seconds or more every drat time. Why was that ever considered acceptable? No wonder I was so drunk when I beat that game.
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Feb 2, 2015 23:10
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precision posted:I suppose this might be a bad thing on a second playthrough or in retrospect, but if you go into it not knowing any better why would you dock it points for doing the same thing that FF4, one of the most beloved titles in the series, did? FF4 is just as linear as FF13, despite the illusion of freedom granted by the first and second airships, and certainly has far more character customization items with the Equipment and Paradigm systems. Oh, I agree nostalgic effects cause people to view old games through a less critical lens, but I do think there's two important caveats here... 1) FF4 (and this is a big way older games feel different) also had a lot less time spent watching characters do things without your control, listening to conversations, etc. FF13 has almost seven hours of cutscene video alone, which is more than twice as long as the world record for beating FF4 without abusing massive warp glitches. Admittedly you can skip them, but most people criticizing the game presumably didn't, because how many people buy RPGs and then skip all the story they possibly can on their first playthrough? The slog feels like more of a slog when you literally have no control at all for half of it. 2) The vehicles in many FF games including the first couple airships in FF4 provide the illusion of freedom, since you can only use them to backtrack pointlessly or go to the next single place you have to go, but illusions are really important. Illusions matter to people, often providing real comfort or joy, and a lot of game developers who think stripping a thing down to its most basic elements and trimming the fat is always the way to go don't understand this. In Diablo-clones, 99% of the loot that drops is going to be garbage no matter what, but the screen fills up with that garbage both because it feels better than thirty monsters in a row dropping no loot and because it makes getting a "unique" or "rare" item feel more exciting. I'm not a psychologist and don't want to speculate  style about what the effect of having a redundant world map and towns full of useless fluff NPCs is, but it probably effects your perception and attitude as a player somehow even if it's mechanically meaningless and a "waste" of development resources.
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Feb 2, 2015 23:12
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triplexpac posted:How does Mystic Quest hold up? I remember really loving the music when I was a kid but I listened to the final boss theme recently and it didn't hold up at all. In contrast, the Battle with Four Fiends was my favorite battle theme in FF4 and if anything I like it more these days. Also yeah, the game is all about using overpowered magic. It's not very good but it's quick and there are couple memorable parts.
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Feb 2, 2015 23:12
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AngryRobotsInc posted:I can't think of any mainline FF that is really nonlinear in any fashion, after the first game. 6's second half is probably the least linear the SNES FF gets. Once you get the Falcon you can go recruit the rest of the party in just about any given order. The game does still gate you with encounter difficulty, and some party members need you to have another one to be recruitable. You could still probably get Cyan, Terra, Mog, Gau, and Shadow and/or Relm in any order, because the enemies in those areas are around the same levels. You can also put off getting Sabin although why would you.
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Feb 3, 2015 00:03
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I know it's been brought up before, but 12 is anything but "linear". You have at least two completely optional areas that are actually fairly expansive, three if you count the Deadlands and the Necrohol separately, not so much a world map as just a big set of places that actually connect in ways that aren't just a straight line (looking at you, Spira), bunches of sidequests and little hidden alcoves even in mandatory storyline areas (the Pharos especially is ridiculous wrt this)... man, 12 was a good game. I should play IZJS sometime.
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Feb 3, 2015 00:12
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Zombies' Downfall posted:Oh, I agree nostalgic effects cause people to view old games through a less critical lens, but I do think there's two important caveats here... I actually have a friend who skipped past all the dialogue in Mass Effect 2 and got annoyed when he had no idea where to go after the first couple missions. Then he booted up XIII, skipped the cutscenes and quit that game about 2 hours in. Boy was stupid. Anyways, you're 100% right about X and XIII, they may have been just as linear as the older FF games, but they did a terrible job of masking it. Wordnumber posted:6's second half is probably the least linear the SNES FF gets. Once you get the Falcon you can go recruit the rest of the party in just about any given order. The game does still gate you with encounter difficulty, and some party members need you to have another one to be recruitable. You could still probably get Cyan, Terra, Mog, Gau, and Shadow and/or Relm in any order, because the enemies in those areas are around the same levels. You can also put off getting Sabin although why would you. Pretty much once you get Cyan you're fine with everything save maybe the Phoenix Cave and Tower of Fanatics. Right around that point the endgame just levels off and everything is about as strong, apart from the 8 dragons wrecking your poo poo.
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Feb 3, 2015 00:16
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Toxxupation posted:The opening cutscenes out of zanarkand take about a half hour or so, then you're at remiem temple for about a half hour, then you spend about half an hour with rikku, then you have to do all of the stuff in besaid including the temple and all the cutscenes so that's about two hours or so, then you go to kilika and fight the numerous boss battles there and do kilika temple as well which is probably around two hours This is another reason why X-2 is better. The dressphere switching tutorial is 10 minutes into the game and by that point you already understand the chain system by watching attacks. One hour into the game you've had access to the world map for a while and you have 5+ dresspheres.
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Feb 3, 2015 00:27
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gigglefeimer posted:This is another reason why X-2 is better. The dressphere switching tutorial is 10 minutes into the game and by that point you already understand the chain system by watching attacks. One hour into the game you've had access to the world map for a while and you have 5+ dresspheres. Because the Thief Dressphere (which Rikku starts in) hits twice with a normal attack, if you pay attention, you're easily able to suss out that the point of chains is "more damage", because whenever you attack an enemy with her, the second hit will do more damage than the first. IDK if this was intentional, but if it was, it's a really great way of "learning by doing". Compare and contrast to "Camera tutorial" from XIII. Instant Grat fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Feb 3, 2015 |
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Feb 3, 2015 00:37
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Instant Grat posted:I know it's been brought up before, but 12 is anything but "linear". You have at least two completely optional areas that are actually fairly expansive, three if you count the Deadlands and the Necrohol separately, not so much a world map as just a big set of places that actually connect in ways that aren't just a straight line (looking at you, Spira), bunches of sidequests and little hidden alcoves even in mandatory storyline areas (the Pharos especially is ridiculous wrt this)... man, 12 was a good game. I should play IZJS sometime. 12 also doesn't have a plot that matters and most of those areas are empty loving nothings with nothing worth noting are interesting about them. The Hunts are cool though! Except the ones where you have to dance around really lovely dungeon mechanics to get to them. Which is a lot of the later ones, now that I think about it.
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Feb 3, 2015 01:20
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:The Hunts are cool though! Except the ones where you have to dance around really lovely dungeon mechanics to get to them. Which is a lot of the later ones, now that I think about it. Actually yeah, now that you mention it, getting to the Shadowseer and getting Behemoth King to spawn both loving sucked. Those can go eat a dick.
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Feb 3, 2015 01:34
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:12 also doesn't have a plot that matters and most of those areas are empty loving nothings with nothing worth noting are interesting about them. I remember at some point in the OGIR YENSA SANDSEA i gave up and just held down the run button for the next few hours rather than deal with the tedium then i gave up
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Feb 3, 2015 01:38
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The coolest thing in FF12 is the one of the places the main story never takes you. It's the ruins of a giant magical weapon going off and just being in the place fucks people up so you're dealing with these terrible goblin dudes who live there and might being doing some poo poo with all of that lost tech/radiation but nah that's too much of an interesting idea so the game goes back to making the main characters run around and grab magic mcguffin A to get McGuffin B at the next place while the villains shows up for a 2 minute cutscene every 6 hours and say and do gently caress all till the very very end. FF12 has a lot of amazing designs and neat ideas buried in an ill paced and mishandled plot. Such a really neat world that they don't really do anything with. corn in the bible posted:I remember at some point in the OGIR YENSA SANDSEA i gave up and just held down the run button for the next few hours rather than deal with the tedium That's actually a perfect example of what I said. The Sandsea is a giant quicksand desert filled with magical oiil rigs and a displaced and displeased native population of this very unique Crab-men race that could have been something to the area or the plot. Instead, they're one dumb side-quest that amounts to nothing and generic enemies to kill. Really glad they're bringing those dudes into FF14 in the expansion. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Feb 3, 2015 |
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Feb 3, 2015 01:40
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precision posted:I suppose this might be a bad thing on a second playthrough or in retrospect, but if you go into it not knowing any better why would you dock it points for doing the same thing that FF4, one of the most beloved titles in the series, did? FF4 is just as linear as FF13, despite the illusion of freedom granted by the first and second airships, and certainly has far more character customization items with the Equipment and Paradigm systems. People seem to keep missing the distinction between the macro "narratively linear" and the micro "gameplay linear". Everyone knows FF games have linear storylines. People generally expect linear storylines, because stories have a beginning, middle, and end, and you typically can't mix them around too much. Some games mix up the pieces of the "middle" part (see Bioware), but that generally requires there to be virtually no impact between what you did in one part of the middle and what happens in another part, which isn't great for telling a storying with a continuing plot arc. People are complaining about "gameplay linear" in FFXIII. For the vast majority of the game there is literally nothing to do besides walk forward. There is no world map to explore, no maze-like dungeons, no secret paths to hidden treasure, no minigames, no side quests, no towns, no NPCs to talk to, no houses to loot, no exploration. All of the other FF games have these to some degree, even FFX.
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Feb 3, 2015 01:41
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Schwartzcough posted:People are complaining about "gameplay linear" in FFXIII. For the vast majority of the game there is literally nothing to do besides walk forward. There is no world map to explore, no maze-like dungeons, no secret paths to hidden treasure, no minigames, no side quests, no towns, no NPCs to talk to, no houses to loot, no exploration. All of the other FF games have these to some degree, even FFX. The funny thing is that people bitch about literally every single one of those things when they are in a game. Like in terms of things people want, they want secrets but only secrets which are super-obvious and you can't miss. They want exploration but only as long as exploration means "I will find everything with minimal effort directly along my path." They want to explore but only in terms of exploration being completely guided and restrained with no possibility of failure or wrong choices. I know it is legitimately what people want but it's one of those things which is just incredibly interesting to me how people use exploration to mean "illusion of exploration" instead of wanting actual serious exploration. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Feb 3, 2015 |
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Feb 3, 2015 01:43
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FF12 would have been better with a World Map.
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Feb 3, 2015 01:45
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FFXII has a world map. e: wait, in the classic sense? Why? What would that possibly add?
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Feb 3, 2015 01:47
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MrAristocrates posted:FFXII has a world map. i don't mean the airship, i mean a world map where you walk around and cover distances quickly instead of walking for two hours across an empty plains for no reason
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Feb 3, 2015 01:49
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Nuebot posted:Yeah I unlocked it, I really like the map thing the game has going on. Really glad someone else thinks this. All of the Uematsu soundtracks elicit basically no reaction from me. FF12 is more my thing, since I love Sakimoto's work in general.
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Feb 3, 2015 01:59
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MrAristocrates posted:FFXII has a world map. A bit more spacial awareness of where everything is in relation to one another as opposed to how it is game where "Cliff filled Beach area" leads to a huge underground sunken city that somehow has an elevator to the slums of a major metropolis. Like the Forests to jungles to plains poo poo in FF12 makes sense but they stop caring about making since with how things connect by around a third of the way through the game.
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Feb 3, 2015 02:11
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FF12 has dungeons and areas where you can go for an hour or more with no chance to save. That is what needs fixing in the HD version. For the love of God give us modern day quick save technology.
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Feb 3, 2015 02:21
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ImpAtom posted:The funny thing is that people bitch about literally every single one of those things when they are in a game. I don't know if that's totally fair. These things that add variety can be done better or worse, and people tend to complain when they're done poorly and become a chore, not when they're done well. Let's take a short stretch of FFIX for example. You've just arrived in Lindblum. You get to explore the castle, including finding a funny little easter egg about Resident Evil puzzles, and then you get to hit on a cute pilot girl you meet. After some cutscenes, you can explore more of the castle, and find Dagger. You get to look through a spyglass to check out the surrounding world, including pointing out areas of interest with little blurbs about each. Then you get to explore a town with multiple large areas, each filled with NPCs to chat up, treasures to find, and little bits of world lore on historic statues and such. You can leave the town and head over to a small optional area that has a few treasures, and some foreshadowing for later in the game. While exploring you find a new party member! Fun! Next up is the festival of the hunt! You get to race around town (that you just got to explore to find your bearings), killing monsters as fast as you can. Depending on how you do, you get one of several prizes. Then the plot says it's time to move on. But wait! You can explore a few optional areas for treasure, a free healing spring, and another optional party member! You can use the new party member to play a frog-catching minigame for prizes (and awesome music). You can play the really fun chocobo hot and cold minigame (also for awesome music), and dig up the chocographs. Now you can go FIND those chocographs on the world map for awesome treasure. Also, you can take your new party member around to learn all sorts of new abilities by eating enemies. Then you can move on to the next dungeon. All that poo poo is crammed in a relatively small span of gameplay. It's all done well, and makes the game fun and compelling. THAT is how you make a good non-linear gameplay segment. The story never deviated, but by god you got to gently caress around doing a lot of stuff.
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Feb 3, 2015 03:01
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SaGa Frontier 2 is linear but you get to experience it in any order. So that's cool.
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Feb 3, 2015 03:10
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I think I might have been using a different definition of nonlinear in my head. When I think of a nonlinear RPG, I think of one where there are multiple paths to the ending, or a branching storyline. Something like Fallout, or the middle section of Mass Effect 1 ( I have not played the other two), where you can do the "Go to this planet and do story poo poo" missions in whatever order you want before it jumps back on the rails at the ending. FFI falls into the same sort of thing I think of as nonlinear as Mass Effect, where you can do some of the main story points (for the level of story FFI had) in different orders. If we're going by "The game let's you faff off for a while and do other stuff" for nonlinear, then yeah, a lot of FF is nonlinear, and XIII is pretty much a line drawn with a straight ruler.
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Feb 3, 2015 03:31
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corn in the bible posted:SaGa Frontier 2 is linear but you get to experience it in any order. So that's cool. So are megaman games
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Feb 3, 2015 03:43
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AngryRobotsInc posted:I can't think of any mainline FF that is really nonlinear in any fashion, after the first game. The first Final Fantasy is linear up until you get the TNT and escape the interior sea triplexpac posted:How does Mystic Quest hold up? I find it entertaining. The Music is some of the best in the series. Be sure to play it with an emulator that has a "turbo" function to power through the grinding spaces. Rutibex fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Feb 3, 2015 |
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Feb 3, 2015 03:44
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