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Fear and Terror being completely de-clawed in 8th Edition really boned Tomb Kings. Being the first book, Fear and Terror were still at a premium cost-wise using the mindset of the earlier editions. As the edition matured, and more armybooks saw release, there was a gradual devaluing of the psychology traits (except for Frenzy) due to how meaningless they became in an era of 24" bubble of LD10 with a reroll. Honestly GW adding rerolls to every system just sucks. D6 systems are chunky in terms of probability and adding any reroll or "roll-3/pick-2" ability is a big power shift. Always Strikes First granting rerolls was another change I never understood either.
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Feb 2, 2015 20:11
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Another problem with undead in general is that their core troops are garbage in a world where huge elite blocks of high strength and/or armor piercing infantry with rerolls to hit is the norm. Lowering the point cost was slightly useful but the entire goal of undead was to win combat resolution by a point and then autobreak units. Now that fear has been nerfed and steadfast combined with generals leadership is here they can't do that and in protracted combats they aren't going to win. Vampires can mitigate this by taking minimal troops (or one huge zombie swarm) and then going all in with their elites but Khemri doesn't really have that option. EDIT: Beaten with almost the exact same points, creepy. Fantasy became a hilariously broken mess halfway through 7th edition and rather than fix it from scratch like they should have they tried to patch up the holes with 8th while keeping the terrible 7th edition army books which created different problems and different horrible imbalances. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 20:12
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Der Shovel posted:Seriously. I'm sure there are people who will complain and sperg out if you use a Panzer IV D model to represent a Panzer IV H or if your tank colours aren't from the officially approved list of historically accurate shades of German grey, but those people exist in every hobby. Oh yeah they exist alright, but none of them play Flames of War. FoW's genetic make up has more early 40k (and other sci-fi/fantasy games) in it than it does any other historical ruleset, and along with its focus on competitive, balanced gaming made most of the old school Grognard/Sperg types hate it from the start. The fact that BF occasionally updates the rules and re-points broken things drove out the last of them long ago. I would say that culturally, FoW Players are closer to 40k players than not, but there is some strong preferences for painted models, the paint job to be historically plausible, and the model to be correct. Nobody is going to freak though if you don't care to buy and paint a whole new set of Panzer IV's for Mid-War when you already have a ton of the Late-War variety however.
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Feb 2, 2015 20:16
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Yup! TKs are allowed to take chariots as core, and that's one way of avoiding having tons of garbage troops. But then, where do you park your wizards for safety? And chariots are great on the charge, if you can manage it, due to impact hits: but in the second round of combat, they will lose, badly, and watching your 55-point chariots crumble due to Unstable really hurts. Add in that savvy opponents are pretty good at not presenting you with a target for your ironically-not-very-maneuverable chariot blocks, and they underperform as core troops. Chariots are still worthwhile to take for TKs, but they are, and should be used as, auxiliaries. I agree that Fear is part of the problem, in that it isn't very good. I'd be a lot happier with the lovely archery if my opponents were reliably, uh, afraid, of getting tied up by fear-causing units. If charging a throwaway 60-point detatchment of lovely archery troops came with a risk of losing a panic test and then losing the combat, they'd have a lot more utility on the field.
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Feb 2, 2015 20:19
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Be careful what you say about WM/H business strategy in this thread. Last time I said the exact same poo poo as you guys it caused BL to go on a 7 page essay tirade and get the thread temporarily closed.Numlock posted:Oh yeah they exist alright, but none of them play Flames of War. It's really adorable that you think this.
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Feb 2, 2015 20:19
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That Privateer Press can legitimately be criticized should hopefully never lead anyone reading this thread to the conclusion that they're in even remotely the same category as Games Workshop, in terms of being a lovely company with terrible business strategy, terrible customer relationship management, terrible game rules, and terrible loyalist customers. Any parallels drawn between the two have to be considered in context, rather than in isolation.
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Feb 2, 2015 20:23
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moths posted:Between 96 and 98 it was way easier for me to find a Mordheim or Necromunda game than a 40k or FB one. Epic Armageddon and Warmaster were both comparably stillborn due largely to abysmally planned launches. (Only two factions were available initially, and it took both ranges about ten years to flesh out.) It doesn't really have to be a universal issue. Most games have pockets where they happen to have good communities and areas where they don't. I'm not saying they didn't sell well in an objective sense, I'm saying they didn't sell well according to whatever archaic standard GW was holding them to. Honestly, I don't believe that they sold well enough over a long enough period of time to be worth it, through a combination of GW-ism style factors, but that's not really the point I'm trying to argue.
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Feb 2, 2015 21:14
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The difference between GW and PP is that when people called PP on a lovely thing they did they tried to learn better.
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Feb 2, 2015 21:20
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Rulebook Heavily posted:The difference between GW and PP is that when people called PP on a lovely thing they did they tried to learn better. What lovely thing did they do?
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Feb 2, 2015 21:25
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Otisburg posted:What lovely thing did they do? The Page 5 text block in the Mark 1 rulebook was pretty bad.
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Feb 2, 2015 21:28
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trip report: 40k is still a lovely game sup
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Feb 2, 2015 21:31
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Oh wow I just looked up the mk1 version of page 5. The mk2 version is much less cringe-inducing, even if they keep the idiotic reference to BALLS.
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Feb 2, 2015 21:34
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Wait, are you saying PP had reality BALLS before GW? Did they touch?
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Feb 2, 2015 23:38
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BULBASAUR posted:Wait, are you saying PP had reality BALLS before GW? Did they touch? Only if you were exxxtreme enough.
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Feb 2, 2015 23:50
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I will forever hate Privateer Press for their metal skorne elephants whose main bodies came in 3 separate pieces, that only sort of fit together in a clameshell like shape, only with a hinged jaw at the bottom like the super vampires from Blade Trinity. I had to put in a pinned support rod with glue and greenstuff just to get it to fit together. 3 times. On the 4th elephant, I broke. Now all my warmahordes sit in the closet. Half painted.
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Feb 3, 2015 00:12
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Thank god they switched to plastic kits (magnetisable for bonus points). I have two of the old metal Gladiators and I only had to assemble one of them. Some of their models are a gigantic pain in the arse. Infinity's a different kind of pain in the arse, too.
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Feb 3, 2015 00:20
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^^^ Now if they used better plastics, that would be great.Otisburg posted:What lovely thing did they do? MonPoc?
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Feb 3, 2015 00:21
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Thirsty Dog posted:Thank god they switched to plastic kits (magnetisable for bonus points). I have two of the old metal Gladiators and I only had to assemble one of them. Some of their models are a gigantic pain in the arse. Yeah. My Convergence ones are metal still. Half my warcasters just won't stay together, and the Enigma Foundry is a medium base model with 17 pieces. It's more superglue than model, now. oh, TCM, Leper is fine, the Rev has found a home somewhere else, and I'm gonna get rid of some other stuff via the Oath thread as prizes.. just need to contact the guy in charge of it Renfield fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Feb 3, 2015 |
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Feb 3, 2015 00:24
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It boggled my mind when they started making battle engines, which were huge units. Then, because apparently this was some kind of practical jokes, they made colossals/gargantuans/whatever. Some of that poo poo could literally kill a child if it's unstable on a piece of terrain and the kid peaks over the edge. Picture an innocent little skull, punctured by this: http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/legion-of-everblight/battle-engines/throne-of-everblight This is literally a 45lb block of lead: http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/circle-orboros/gargantuans/woldwrath 10 people have already died while assembling this one: http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/skorne/gargantuans/mammoth
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Feb 3, 2015 00:24
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LordAba posted:^^^ Now if they used better plastics, that would be great. <rant> I'll be honest, I don't really care about the quality anywhere near as much as other people. I want ease of assembly and something that'll look decent on the battlefield with a reasonable number of poses. My painting is awful and my desire to do any is practically non-existent. I developed a sensitivity to CA glues which makes assembly of fiddly models a massive drama. If it's something like Mantic's first Dreadball teams, which were a) ugly, and b) surprisingly fiddly to put together then it's a combination of total suck. Just... take the massive assembly overhead out of minis gaming please people  It's why I'd rather buy prepainted off eBay or stick to stuff like Epic scale which is a piece of piss to get ready.</rant> e: Aren't colossals / gargantuans mostly resin with a bit of metal?
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Feb 3, 2015 00:31
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Thirsty Dog posted:e: Aren't colossals / gargantuans mostly resin with a bit of metal? TheCosmicMuffet posted:I AM A DELUSIONAL SHITHEAD DO NOT ARGUE WITH ME
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Feb 3, 2015 00:36
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Look, SALR's avatar/text removal has a few downsides but it's totally worth it in the long run
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Feb 3, 2015 00:38
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TheCosmicMuffet posted:This is literally a 45lb block of lead: I own one. It is resin. Thirsty Dog posted:<rant> It is "useful idiots" like you that means we get poo poo components to good games. Just like there is nothing wrong with making a game balanced to all levels of play and it makes the game stronger (even though newbs complain about the evil power games), there is nothing wrong with making components and models better because it helps people new to hobbies by increasing the ease of painting details that make even a drybrushing look good and increasing the ease of putting things together with actual *gasp* instructions. Stop buying Mantic's fantasy poo poo and maybe they will make an elf army that doesn't look like fried rear end. I think I bit my tongue. EDIT: gently caress you PP. 
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Feb 3, 2015 00:50
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I don't think anyone is insane enough to want shittier models all else being equal, but the reason why it usually comes up is that GW/FW and their fanbases love to wank themselves bloody about how jewel-like their poo poo is, and the point needs to be made that that's all real fuckin' neato but the extra lovingly sculpted rivets don't actually justify $20 extra per squad, let alone $20 extra per model in some cases, so if it's a choice between making the aquilae extra crisp and not completely taking the piss when it comes to sticker prices, please go with the latter. All of this is entirely beside the point of whether Mantic or whoever could stand to improve their older lines, which they very well could and, to the best of my understanding, have been doing. pre-post edit: this isn't really even directed at you, LordAba. Your post is entirely reasonable if taken in the proper context; the 'problem' if there is one is more that it's a short hop, skip and jump from there to one of the more tired defenses of GW and FW's prices.
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Feb 3, 2015 01:24
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Also, PP is already moving to better plastics. The resin that the new character models have been made in are a lot better from what I've seen myself so far, and they showed the hard plastic sprues that the new CoC battle engine is gonna be made out of, at a significant cost decrease.
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Feb 3, 2015 01:56
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El Estrago Bonito posted:It's really adorable that you think this. Well gently caress you too.
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Feb 3, 2015 02:25
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Nah, Numlock is actually 100% right because rivet-counters self-select out of both Flames of War and Bolt Action. Both games are shamelessly WWII Movie: The Game. You might find a guy who's like "Well, actually this green should be that green!" or "Well, actually USMC puttees weren't worn in this campaign!" but he's probably just lonely and wants to talk WW2 trivia. The people who really get bent out of shape over historical inaccuracies wouldn't touch mainstream WW2 gaming with a 10' lunge mine.
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Feb 3, 2015 02:41
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I mean, I have several of those guys in my local FoW group. We had one dude who won the painting competition at whatever the big FoW tournament in Seattle one year and one of them unironically said "Yeah, I mean the army is painted well I guess, but it's the wrong shade of tan for Recon troops." We had another guy who (literally) wrote the guide on how to do whitewash tanks for FoW and a different guy had problems with his method because he thought it "wasn't streaky enough to realistic". Saying that the crazy nitpickers aren't drawn to FoW is just patently false, you can find them on pretty much any forum for FoW people arguing about if Panzer Aces is actually color accurate.
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Feb 3, 2015 02:47
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But the thing is that they're still playing baby's first historicals. There are so many ridiculous mistakes happening in FoW that anybody who takes this poo poo seriously can't take that poo poo seriously. They're playing a game where the Katyushas park next to the assault troops, named historical characters show up to battles they weren't at, and Soviet political officers dish out field executions like drunk 40k Kommisars. So yeah you get some scrub-tier nitpickers. Boo hoo. The big boys are arguing over button placement on Napoleonic uniforms in the back room, laughing at chumps who think they're hot poo poo for spotting a whitewash that isn't "streaky enough."
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Feb 3, 2015 03:16
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moths posted:But the thing is that they're still playing baby's first historicals. Those buttons are the wrong color bronze, sir
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Feb 3, 2015 03:20
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Orsus Zaktovhar using the Beast 09 warjack in his battlegroup. The bonded companion of his mortal enemy Sorscha Kratikoff? Why dont we just have a big orgy of open mouth kissing morrowans and thralmarites mid field if that's the reckless disregard you show for steambot history.
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Feb 3, 2015 03:28
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S.J. posted:Those buttons are the wrong color bronze, sir Bronze? I believe you'll find the thirty-second Dragoons used bone buttons on their winter greatcoats. I only use the ear bones of shrews for mine. Same with thr fur lining on the officers pellisse. And don't get me started on that joke you call frogging
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Feb 3, 2015 03:30
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lol @ people who can spot detail like that on FoW's infantry. FoW is nice enough to have painting guides in their books, anything more is sperg territory.
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Feb 3, 2015 03:37
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moths posted:But the thing is that they're still playing baby's first historicals. I'm just saying no game is immune to those people (go paint your Ultramarine squad markings on the wrong shoulder and post the pics on B&C and see how long it takes for someone to call you out) and you two making posts like this is making historicals players look like elitist assholes.
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Feb 3, 2015 04:00
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BULBASAUR posted:Wait, are you saying PP had reality BALLS before GW? Did they touch? Numlock posted:Well gently caress you too. 
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Feb 3, 2015 04:17
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LordAba posted:I own one. It is resin. Thank god. Honestly, when I shake the box and hear tinkling, I don't know what to think. I just know I don't want to deal with mixed material models. GW plastic/metal minis when they were making metal molds to extend their generic poseable sprues were always breaking their superglue seals for me, and I wasn't interesting in pinning back then. I can only imagine how much more of a hassle it is to try to get a nice mating between large resin and metal components. Nothing fits perfectly even in a really good mini unless it was all vacuum molded plastic with computer aided design rather than cast of a master. Still. It only takes a metal tentacle falling with leverage from a resin body to drive all the way through an infants skull. Here's hoping they'll catch up with GW's knights and offer an all plastic hideous tongue creature pedestal for the rest of us.
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Feb 3, 2015 04:29
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You're really overestimating the force behind gravity.
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Feb 3, 2015 04:39
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You don't play Wargames on the roof of a skyscraper?
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Feb 3, 2015 04:50
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TheCosmicMuffet posted:Thank god. In all the metal/ resin kits I've had the metal fits perfectly with the resin and the resin to resin fits are like little scale model grand canyons. I don't understand how that happens. At all.
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Feb 3, 2015 04:54
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The bigger problem I ran into with FoW, and at least part of the reason it died at my LGS, is that half of our players wouldn't play a 'blue-on-blue' game, and most people played Germans. We literally had one guy asking other people to pick up a Soviet army so he could kick their teeth in with his Germans. gently caress that guy.
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Feb 3, 2015 05:34
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