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Discendo Vox posted:One of the main antifluoride groups, the FAN, who I linked a bit ago, have become really sophisticated at targeting city governments. They're very good at making politicians feel like combating them would result in a lost election. Would you mind going into some detail about this? I'm really curious how this could actually come about. Also it's killing me, but I can't find the clip of House where he talks about "Teeny, tiny baby coffins that come in frog green and fire engine red" anywhere online.
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Feb 3, 2015 16:29
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Eej posted:I know of two Canadian cities that have removed fluoride in their water: Vancouver and Kitchener-Waterloo. Don't forget Victoria! We're special loving snowflakes too! There's lots of places in Canada that don't have fluoridated water, and it sucks - only ~45% of us have fluoridated water.
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Feb 3, 2015 16:57
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Wikipedia doesn't answer this and I can't find a piece of journalism on this outbreak that is anything besides CULTURE WAR WHAT DOES HILLARY THINK OF VACCINES CHRISTIE 2016 GRRR nonsense so: is there any reason to care about this if you're not an idiot and have been vaccinated? This only affects people who haven't had the MMR vaccine right? Adults and normal kids who have been vaccinated don't really have a statistically significant problem to worry about?
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Feb 3, 2015 17:08
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LeJackal posted:Pretty much all our salt has iodine added. You can get iodine-free salt if you really want but it takes a modicum of effort because it is a 'specialty' salt and is placed with kosher salt and the like. I'm so used to all table salt being iodized (kosher salt typically isn't) that it really weirded me out when I got to Australia and you could buy non-iodized table salt in the grocery store. I also learned when I was in Mongolia it's a crime to sell non-iodized salt; apparently iodine is in such short supply in the diet there that they've taken illegal salt sellers seriously to task and have had more than one trial for guys trying to sell like road salt out in the provinces.
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Feb 3, 2015 17:14
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Pryor on Fire posted:Is there any reason to care about this if you're not an idiot and have been vaccinated? This only affects people who haven't had the MMR vaccine right? Adults and normal kids who have been vaccinated don't really have a statistically significant problem to worry about? Vaccines fail to take in about 1-3% of the vaccinated population. "The vaccination status is known for 39 of the patients. Of those, 32 were unvaccinated, one had received partial vaccination and seven were fully vaccinated." Also, you might have kids who are too young to have been vaccinated once, let alone twice.
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Feb 3, 2015 17:17
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Interesting, thanks. Is that 1-3% just for measles or is that true for whatever else like tetanus too?
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Feb 3, 2015 17:33
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Rhandhali posted:I'm so used to all table salt being iodized (kosher salt typically isn't) that it really weirded me out when I got to Australia and you could buy non-iodized table salt in the grocery store. Generally speaking humans can only get proper amounts of iodine from seafood. Mongolia is not exactly a nation known for this prime fishing spots. That's why iodized salt came about in the first place; people living in inland areas far away from places you can catch a lot of fish don't get nearly enough iodine. Then you have people like me that can't eat anything seafood and need to get that nutrient elsewhere. If it weren't for food additives people like me would find it difficult to impossible to find proper nutrition.
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Feb 3, 2015 17:41
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Pryor on Fire posted:Wikipedia doesn't answer this and I can't find a piece of journalism on this outbreak that is anything besides CULTURE WAR WHAT DOES HILLARY THINK OF VACCINES CHRISTIE 2016 GRRR nonsense so: is there any reason to care about this if you're not an idiot and have been vaccinated? This only affects people who haven't had the MMR vaccine right? Adults and normal kids who have been vaccinated don't really have a statistically significant problem to worry about? I don't know about you, but having young and immunocompromised kids die of a perfectly preventable disease is something I care about. It also affects the willingness of people who know such folks to travel or visit public places. So there are two reasons to care, even if it doesn't directly affect you.
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Feb 3, 2015 17:42
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It's kinda funny how everyone in this thread seems to think it's "crunchy moms" and libtards who're the ones not vaccinating their kids, and yet, it's GOP politicians actually talking about unsafe vaccines on national TV.
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Feb 3, 2015 17:45
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Radbot posted:It's kinda funny how everyone in this thread seems to think it's "crunchy moms" and libtards who're the ones not vaccinating their kids, and yet, it's GOP politicians actually talking about unsafe vaccines on national TV. With the exception of Michelle Bachmann, these politicians have made these statements only recently. At the same time, a good deal of us have been dealing with the "crunchy moms" on a regular basis.
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Feb 3, 2015 17:48
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Radbot posted:It's kinda funny how everyone in this thread seems to think it's "crunchy moms" and libtards who're the ones not vaccinating their kids, and yet, it's GOP politicians actually talking about unsafe vaccines on national TV.  Its the Crunchy Moms too. Like has been said, its showing up on both sides of the political spectrum.
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Feb 3, 2015 17:49
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Radbot posted:It's kinda funny how everyone in this thread seems to think it's "crunchy moms" and libtards who're the ones not vaccinating their kids, and yet, it's GOP politicians actually talking about unsafe vaccines on national TV. There are a few holdouts, but I think a good number have come around now that the numbers are staring them in the face. If they keep going on about granola or whatever then I guess we can put them in the same category as the anti-vaxxers, denying facts and reality.
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Feb 3, 2015 17:51
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In my area, it's not 'crunchy moms' at all but just those who read an article or two on their facebook feed and became experts. They've engaged in debates on some of my wifes facebook feeds and they come up with ridiculous stances that have no basis in logic. They don't even have the decency to hide between hippy ideals or corrupt doctors. One made the connection between vaccines and leukemia.
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Feb 3, 2015 17:52
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Pryor on Fire posted:Interesting, thanks. Is that 1-3% just for measles or is that true for whatever else like tetanus too? I know my Hep A/B vaccine didn't take, so I had to get another after college.
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Feb 3, 2015 17:55
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Maybe we should examine the root cause of this issue - that people have lost nearly all faith in our institutions. I mean, it's fun to blame idiots for being stupid (and they are very, very stupid), but it's also not very productive and it makes the offenders extremely defensive since it plays directly into their persecution complex. It seems extremely similar to 9/11 trutherism to me. Shouting at them about facts and evidence doesn't work.
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Feb 3, 2015 17:56
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The biggest growing chunk of the movement isn't actually 'crunchy', it's moderately educated parents who think because they went to a little college they know better or whatever the gently caress.
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Feb 3, 2015 17:56
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Radbot posted:Maybe we should examine the root cause of this issue - that people have lost nearly all faith in our institutions. I mean, it's fun to blame idiots for being stupid (and they are very, very stupid), but it's also not very productive and it makes the offenders extremely defensive since it plays directly into their persecution complex. I do not believe this. I believe that a small minority believe that they have lost faith in their institutions and because they can easily have a voice (The Internet) and can spread hyperbolic statements quickly (Facebook) we are faced with the problems that we have today. I would content (without facts, as I do not have any on hand) that the majority of the population still trusts their doctors and science.
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Feb 3, 2015 17:58
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SedanChair posted:There are a few holdouts, but I think a good number have come around now that the numbers are staring them in the face. If they keep going on about granola or whatever then I guess we can put them in the same category as the anti-vaxxers, denying facts and reality. There's really no need for you to be such a loving rear end in a top hat. Just because you can't tell the loving difference between "there is no one political ideology that all anti-vaxxers belong to" and "there exist some portion of these anti-vaxxers who use their leftist beliefs to support their anti-vax beliefs, particularly beliefs relating to extreme environmentalism/naturalism and anti-corporatism" doesn't mean you have the right to be such jackass. Quit putting words in my mouth and deal with the poo poo I'm actually trying to argue. What is so loving difficult for you to understand that I keep referring to a local subgroup? I've said this a million loving times yet you keep going on and on and on about how I'm really talking about the entire nation as a whole. What the gently caress is your problem? I'm not the one killing children here. Solkanar512 fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Feb 3, 2015 |
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Feb 3, 2015 18:03
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The sadistic pleasure a lot of vaccination types seem to take in trying to force people to do things against their will or concerns, especially when it comes to the safety and comfort of their children, is absolutely deplorable and makes me want to support voices critical of vaccination, or at least a person's independent right to choose what to do with his own body and make up his own mind. I believe in the science of vaccines fully, and have received vaccinations myself in the last year, but that is not justification for the sort of despicable behavior I've seen exhibited by some vaccination advocates.
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Feb 3, 2015 18:15
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Solkanar512 posted:Would you mind going into some detail about this? I'm really curious how this could actually come about. This is frankly something I don't know or understand quite as well, because unlike other major fringe belief loci, there's not a huge profit motive in it. The major group, Fluoride Action Netowrk (FAN) is organized around Paul Connett, an emeritus chemistry professor at St. Lawrence, which is a decently ranked school. The organization and the antifluoride movement are tied into leftist and environmental groups, and not necessarily the fringe ones- they are particularly successful in locations (like Portland) where environmentalism is also a form of culturaland political identity. I'll look into it a bit more and get back to you. Based purely on this blogpost which tracked down sources of spending in an antifluoride campaign push in New Zealand, it looks like at least some antifluoride campaigning is coming from the natural products industry. I'd need to do similar excavation and document requests on FAN, but the obfuscation of funding is going to be a lot more sophisticated in the US. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Feb 3, 2015 |
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Feb 3, 2015 18:15
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Pryor on Fire posted:Interesting, thanks. Is that 1-3% just for measles or is that true for whatever else like tetanus too? I think it applies to everything, but it's hard to find actual figures given that web searches for "vaccination failure rate" turn up thousands of sites of woo instead. Some FDA reports on individual vaccines (ADACEL, Menactra) give similar figures, though it does show some variance from vaccine to vaccine.
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Feb 3, 2015 18:21
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Kyrie eleison posted:The sadistic pleasure a lot of vaccination types seem to take in trying to force people to do things against their will or concerns, especially when it comes to the safety and comfort of their children, is absolutely deplorable and makes me want to support voices critical of vaccination, or at least a person's independent right to choose what to do with his own body and make up his own mind. I believe in the science of vaccines fully, and have received vaccinations myself in the last year, but that is not justification for the sort of despicable behavior I've seen exhibited by some vaccination advocates. What about the pleasure parents take in having to choose between frog green and fire engine red for their brand new baby coffin? Oh wait that's not pleasure, that's unspeakable and completely preventable grief. You don't even bother to quite any of this "despicable behavior" so until you can I think you're just making it all up. What the gently caress is wrong with you? Do you really believe this is about taking pleasure in forcing people to do poo poo they don't want to do? Do you really believe that none of us have small children or immunocompromised people in our circle of friends, families and coworkers and want to see them continue to live strong, healthy lives?
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Feb 3, 2015 18:25
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Kyrie eleison posted:The sadistic pleasure a lot of vaccination types seem to take in trying to force people to do things against their will or concerns, especially when it comes to the safety and comfort of their children, is absolutely deplorable and makes me want to support voices critical of vaccination, or at least a person's independent right to choose what to do with his own body and make up his own mind. I believe in the science of vaccines fully, and have received vaccinations myself in the last year, but that is not justification for the sort of despicable behavior I've seen exhibited by some vaccination advocates. Surprise Surprise: Kyrie is not only has bad opinions about religion, he's a reprehensible human being all around.
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Feb 3, 2015 18:28
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Radbot posted:It's kinda funny how everyone in this thread seems to think it's "crunchy moms" and libtards who're the ones not vaccinating their kids, and yet, it's GOP politicians actually talking about unsafe vaccines on national TV. Last page we pretty clearly established that it's an issue that crosses the political spectrum but is apparently a little more prevalent among conservatives (particularly wingnut survivalists and conspiracy theorists who distrust the government) Radbot posted:Maybe we should examine the root cause of this issue - that people have lost nearly all faith in our institutions. I mean, it's fun to blame idiots for being stupid (and they are very, very stupid), but it's also not very productive and it makes the offenders extremely defensive since it plays directly into their persecution complex. All that you can do is present the facts to the large number of people might be unsure. Don't even mention the myth, simply mention that data proving that vaccines are safe and effective
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Feb 3, 2015 18:28
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Solkanar512 posted:What about the pleasure parents take in having to choose between frog green and fire engine red for their brand new baby coffin? Oh wait that's not pleasure, that's unspeakable and completely preventable grief. You don't even bother to quite any of this "despicable behavior" so until you can I think you're just making it all up. I know very well that for many people, some present in this very forum, politics is not about bettering the human race, but about mockery and derision.
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Feb 3, 2015 18:32
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Kyrie eleison posted:The sadistic pleasure a lot of vaccination types seem to take in trying to force people to do things against their will or concerns, especially when it comes to the safety and comfort of their children, is absolutely deplorable and makes me want to support voices critical of vaccination, or at least a person's independent right to choose what to do with his own body and make up his own mind. I believe in the science of vaccines fully, and have received vaccinations myself in the last year, but that is not justification for the sort of despicable behavior I've seen exhibited by some vaccination advocates. This is a public health issue. Pro-vaccination people don't want to vaccinate everyone for the hell of it. Pro-vaccination people want to vaccinate everyone because that's the only way to protect people who are unvaccinated, including young infants and the immunocompromised. Pro-vaccination is literally about providing safety and comfort to people's children, especially children who are too young to be vaccinated. If enough people fail to vaccinate their children then herd immunity fails and a bunch of children get sick and wind up in situations where they are inherently uncomfortable and unsafe, as evidenced by measles outbreaks in North America and the UK.
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Feb 3, 2015 18:37
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Kyrie eleison posted:I know very well that for many people, some present in this very forum, politics is not about bettering the human race, but about mockery and derision. It's about both for a lot of those people. Someone who is pro-vaccination may believe that herd immunity is essential for the betterment of the human race while also deriving enjoyment from mocking anti-vaccination people who think that the moon is a hologram and that gemstones are living creatures.
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Feb 3, 2015 18:39
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Most of the anti-vaxxers I've met have been Fox News-watching, low-information, good-heart-average-intelligence types, accepting uncritically everything they hear from Fox News, chain emails, or their friend of a friend.
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Feb 3, 2015 18:42
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Discendo Vox posted:One of the main antifluoride groups, the FAN, who I linked a bit ago, have become really sophisticated at targeting city governments. They're very good at making politicians feel like combating them would result in a lost election. They're afraid of getting Jammed. Quoth Parks and Rec: "FLUORIDE is a CHEMICAL. You know what else is a chemical? STRICHNINE!"
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Feb 3, 2015 18:44
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Kyrie eleison posted:The sadistic pleasure a lot of vaccination types seem to take in trying to force people to do things against their will or concerns, especially when it comes to the safety and comfort of their children, is absolutely deplorable and makes me want to support voices critical of vaccination, or at least a person's independent right to choose what to do with his own body and make up his own mind. Hey, guess what: they're not choosing "their own kids" poo poo. They're putting my kid at risk too. This issue does not end at the limbs of their little precious. A lot of this seems to be based around treating children like property, and saying "oh I'm ok to <do this stupid thing> because it's MINE and these are MY BELIEFS" and so let me put this another way, with this analogy: these people are choosing to litter their lawn with trash that could easily blow over to my lawn and irreplaceable damage it, forever. I don't really give a poo poo whether their precious beliefs involve picking up trash on their lawn or not. It puts me at an unacceptable level of risk. Pick up the trash, idiots.
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Feb 3, 2015 18:45
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Nameless_Steve posted:Most of the anti-vaxxers I've met have been Fox News-watching, low-information, good-heart-average-intelligence types, accepting uncritically everything they hear from Fox News, chain emails, or their friend of a friend. Most that I've met have been leftist and liberals. It's pretty bipartisan. I just saw a thing on a conservative's facebook from a Tea Party site making fun of liberals not getting vaccinating.
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Feb 3, 2015 18:48
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Kyrie eleison posted:I know very well that for many people, some present in this very forum, politics is not about bettering the human race, but about mockery and derision. Put up or shut up. The quote button is right down there.
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Feb 3, 2015 18:56
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Hey, guess what: they're not choosing "their own kids" poo poo. They're putting my kid at risk too. This issue does not end at the limbs of their little precious. It's more like some jackass burning a huge pile of leaves in his yard on a dry, windy day. "I don't care! They're MY LEAVES and they're on MY PROPERTY so I can do WHATEVER I WANT with them and you can't stop me!" *entire neighborhood burns down*
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Feb 3, 2015 18:58
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Oh, I don't doubt it. Probably the anti-gluten types who proudly don't own a TV nor let their kids eat candy. There are so many different types of moron.
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Feb 3, 2015 19:00
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Nameless_Steve posted:Oh, I don't doubt it. Probably the anti-gluten types who proudly don't own a TV nor let their kids eat candy. There are so many different types of moron. In this day and age, you really don't need a television to be entertained. But gently caress you if you want to take away my 47" computer monitor 
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Feb 3, 2015 19:02
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Kyrie eleison posted:I know very well that for many people, some present in this very forum, politics is not about bettering the human race, but about mockery and derision. You post a repugnant opinion and everyone else is being derisive 
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Feb 3, 2015 19:03
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Zeitgueist posted:Most that I've met have been leftist and liberals. I still don't buy this idea of an anti-vaccination stance being "both sides of the political spectrum". I mean, this is an epidemic that is mostly evident in the US, a country with absolutely no mainstream leftist representation or any strong history of active leftist representation; the "liberals" are further to the right than pretty much all European rightwing political groups (with obvious exceptions made for fringe extreme rightwing groups like Neo Nazis and the like), and there's not ever been any kind of socialist healthcare model which may have drastically altered the formation of opinions on vaccines in general. And I say all this in spite of Andrew Wakefield being British, who in poisoning the well with regards to the combined MMR vaccine only set out to do so in order to sell his own vaccines.
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Feb 3, 2015 19:19
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Chocolate Teapot posted:I still don't buy this idea of an anti-vaccination stance being "both sides of the political spectrum". I mean, this is an epidemic that is mostly evident in the US, a country with absolutely no mainstream leftist representation or any strong history of active leftist representation; the "liberals" are further to the right than pretty much all European rightwing political groups (with obvious exceptions made for fringe extreme rightwing groups like Neo Nazis and the like), and there's not ever been any kind of socialist healthcare model which may have drastically altered the formation of opinions on vaccines in general. And I say all this in spite of Andrew Wakefield being British, who in poisoning the well with regards to the combined MMR vaccine only set out to do so in order to sell his own vaccines. I've seen revolutionary socialists post anti vax stuff.
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Feb 3, 2015 19:21
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Chocolate Teapot posted:I still don't buy this idea of an anti-vaccination stance being "both sides of the political spectrum". I mean, this is an epidemic that is mostly evident in the US, a country with absolutely no mainstream leftist representation or any strong history of active leftist representation; the "liberals" are further to the right than pretty much all European rightwing political groups (with obvious exceptions made for fringe extreme rightwing groups like Neo Nazis and the like), and there's not ever been any kind of socialist healthcare model which may have drastically altered the formation of opinions on vaccines in general. And I say all this in spite of Andrew Wakefield being British, who in poisoning the well with regards to the combined MMR vaccine only set out to do so in order to sell his own vaccines. Anti-vaccine sentiment is expressed through what are commonly referred to as left and right fringe channels. One problem of discussing whether or not this is truly a "left wing" or "right wing" phenomenon is that no true scotsman is in effect- "right" and "left" aren't particularly meaningful terms, so your definition will shift to accommodate your beliefs about whichever group you identify with and wish to protect from the harm of association with these viewpoints. We should, however, anticipate that it will become more common among self-identified political conservatives and libertarians as politicians see it as a way of gathering votes and publicize it along those lines. This doesn't necessarily mean that it will diminish on the left- libertarianism, in particular, has traits that let it continue to infect and persist across other cultural boundaries, even after a given issue has already been polarized according to the conventional partisan divide. edit: reading that back it looks like something out of my thesis. Upshot: It happens on the left too. "left" and "right" are basically team names and don't mean very much, especially in this context. The red team has partially endorsed antivaxx, so we'll probably see more of it on the right, but libertarians and the left fringe will probably also keep supporting this particular conspiracy theory. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Feb 3, 2015 |
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Feb 3, 2015 19:25
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Chocolate Teapot posted:I still don't buy this idea of an anti-vaccination stance being "both sides of the political spectrum". I mean, this is an epidemic that is mostly evident in the US, a country with absolutely no mainstream leftist representation or any strong history of active leftist representation; the "liberals" are further to the right than pretty much all European rightwing political groups (with obvious exceptions made for fringe extreme rightwing groups like Neo Nazis and the like), and there's not ever been any kind of socialist healthcare model which may have drastically altered the formation of opinions on vaccines in general. And I say all this in spite of Andrew Wakefield being British, who in poisoning the well with regards to the combined MMR vaccine only set out to do so in order to sell his own vaccines. The motivations behind anti-vaxxers can vary a lot. The general lefty stereotype is being all natural cures only--common with the same poo poo heads pushing essential oils and spine alignment as medicine. On the right one reason is faith healing. That one's common with religious zealots worthy of the crusades. Then there's anti government viewpoints existing all over the place.
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