|
Rarity posted:Well Gardens of the Moon didn't end how I expected at all. To be fair, I don't know that this a bad take on GotM. Later books have much better setup and flow to their climaxes.
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2015 03:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2024 21:18 |
|
|
e: ^^^ Maybe, but only as a function of his improving writing skills. The numerous twisting plot threads themselves almost never resolve as you would expect or think they will. But by and large it's done, IMO, extremely organically (as compared to, eg, the Mistborn books), and that masterful eradication of expectations is one of my favorite things about Erikson's writing.Rarity posted:Well Gardens of the Moon didn't end how I expected at all. IIRC, Rake vs the demon wasn't out of nowhere. That was Lorn's stated plan, albeit with the hope that Rake would have by that time been significantly weakened by his fight with Raest. Raest himself got derailed by a mechanism that is going to get a whole lot of exposition over the course of the series. Although I chuckled at 'plant monster.' The Twins' coin played no role in the climax, and I don't think any impression was ever given that it was going to. The Bridgeburners were already explained. And really, Paran's plan was sort of an ad hoc deal that would have probably not gone well for him. But generally speaking, things often not going to plan is an underlying theme throughout the whole series. The beauty of it is that poo poo doesn't just randomly happen to cause it. The seeds are planted and they germinate - much as with Lorn's demise. Habibi fucked around with this message at 06:19 on Jan 31, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2015 06:14
|
|
|
I love the "plant monster" thing because that's exactly what I thought on my first read of that part. GotM suddenly throws two new words at you - Finnest and Azath - and gives you absolutely no context. You only realize that the Azath showing up is a Big Deal a couple books down the line when you learn a bit more about those things.
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2015 09:21
|
|
|
Habibi posted:IIRC, Rake vs the demon wasn't out of nowhere. That was Lorn's stated plan, albeit with the hope that Rake would have by that time been significantly weakened by his fight with Raest. Raest himself got derailed by a mechanism that is going to get a whole lot of exposition over the course of the series. Although I chuckled at 'plant monster.' The Twins' coin played no role in the climax, and I don't think any impression was ever given that it was going to. The Bridgeburners were already explained. And really, Paran's plan was sort of an ad hoc deal that would have probably not gone well for him. The Twins/Oponn is more comic relief than anything else in the series. The scene in BH is pretty good in that regard. One thing I like with the series is how "mere" humans totally gently caress up the lives and plans of 100 000 year ascendants and in the most rewarding cases by cussers. anilEhilated posted:I love the "plant monster" thing because that's exactly what I thought on my first read of that part. GotM suddenly throws two new words at you - Finnest and Azath - and gives you absolutely no context. You only realize that the Azath showing up is a Big Deal a couple books down the line when you learn a bit more about those things. Yeah, the importance of Azath we can see in FoD. Do we ever get an explanation of the name Azathanai?
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2015 14:57
|
|
|
Yeah, T'riss says it means "The people who were never born", implying they're the Elder Gods/Elementals.
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2015 15:34
|
|
Cardiac posted:
Just got to this part in DHG on my first re-read of the series now.  I forgot how brutal the culling of the nobles sequence was.
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2015 17:05
|
|
|
Happy Yeti posted:Yeah, T'riss says it means "The people who were never born", implying they're the Elder Gods/Elementals. What I meant to say, did we get to know if Azath and Azathanai is related and how
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2015 20:43
|
|
|
Cardiac posted:What I meant to say, did we get to know if Azath and Azathanai is related and how One of the many things I expect to find out in Fall of Light and Walk in Shadow.
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2015 20:54
|
|
|
anilEhilated posted:I love the "plant monster" thing because that's exactly what I thought on my first read of that part. GotM suddenly throws two new words at you - Finnest and Azath - and gives you absolutely no context. You only realize that the Azath showing up is a Big Deal a couple books down the line when you learn a bit more about those things. Wasn't the Azath brought up earlier in the book when taking about ST/Cotillion/Deadhouse?
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2015 00:13
|
|
|
About halfway through Deadhouse Gates. Man, this book seems like it's building up to some serious poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2015 21:22
|
|
|
Damo posted:About halfway through Deadhouse Gates. Man, this book seems like it's building up to some serious poo poo. You could say that.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2015 21:23
|
|
|
Damo posted:About halfway through Deadhouse Gates. Man, this book seems like it's building up to some serious poo poo. You might say things are...converging.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2015 04:37
|
|
|
So, while I still have some time to decide, can anyone convince me for or against reading the ICE novels while I'm going through the main series for the first time? Or should I read them all after I read the normal Malazan books? Or should I skip them entirely? If anyone suggest intertwining them with the core Malazan books, can you link me with a definitive reading order please? The one in the OP is out of date (there seem to be like, 3 or 4 ICE books released since it was written) and ones I find googling seem to conflict with each other, and I don't know which is correct. I'm real weary since I don't want something in the main series spoiled by an ICE book because I read poo poo in the wrong order. edit: now that I think about it, wouldn't just reading them in the order they were published be the safest route? Damo fucked around with this message at 14:03 on Feb 3, 2015 |
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2015 13:57
|
|
|
Damo posted:So, while I still have some time to decide, can anyone convince me for or against reading the ICE novels while I'm going through the main series for the first time? Or should I read them all after I read the normal Malazan books? Or should I skip them entirely? skip the ICE books and save them for a dedicated ICE read through.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2015 14:15
|
|
|
NoNostalgia4Grover posted:skip the ICE books and save them for a dedicated ICE read through. Pretty much this. The main series is the prime mover and ICE covers what happened to characters that got left behind by the main series. I actually can't recall whether there is any occasion where Erikson picks up where Esslemont left off (disregarding NoK for obvious reasons).
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2015 14:39
|
|
|
Like others have said just save ICE stuff for an ICE-only read-through. The characters are written terribly, you'll hate what happens to some of them. Skip Night of Knives entirely. Skip Kiska chapters entirely in the Return of the Crimson Guard. Read Orb, Scepter, Throne. Read Blood and Bone. Skip Assail.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2015 14:55
|
|
|
I started reading that Prince of Nothing book recommended a while back. I already miss Erikson's names. "Ishuäl was the secret refuge of the Kūniüric High Kings, and no one, not even the No- God, could besiege a secret. Months earlier, Anasūrimbor Ganrelka II, High King of Kūniüri, had fled to Ishuäl with the remnants of his household." Looks like someone just slapped a keyboard a few times to come up with those names. Sheesh.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2015 17:43
|
|
|
Spermy Smurf posted:Like others have said just save ICE stuff for an ICE-only read-through. The characters are written terribly, you'll hate what happens to some of them. lol you completely forgot stonewielder My suggestion: - Read Orb Scepter Throne - If you enjoy his writing read the rest, otherwise find a synopsis
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2015 19:33
|
|
|
Aranan posted:I started reading that Prince of Nothing book recommended a while back. I already miss Erikson's names. As I mentioned before, that was literally the reason I couldn't make it part the first chapter. Spermy Smurf posted:Skip Night of Knives entirely. Stonewielder is also pretty decent. I'll echo the 'read them after the main series' comments. Because his writing and characters are very ho-hum, the books flow better and are more interesting when you read them back to back. Habibi fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Feb 3, 2015 |
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2015 19:36
|
|
|
The middle books are worth a read, I think. That's Crimson Guard, Stonewielder, OST. Blood and Bone has interesting locales and mostly horrible plot, Assail has uninteresting locales and mostly horrible plot, Night of Knives isn't even worth reading.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2015 19:58
|
|
|
Just read them all after the main series while you're on a trip or looking for an easy read. I enjoyed them in that setting.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2015 20:15
|
|
|
Yeah I read them according to some recommended reading order and it kinda distracted from the main plot in a kind of bad way. I've enjoyed all the ICE books but Assail, for what that's worth. I'd recommend reading them if you like Malazan, for sure, but probably after the main 10.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2015 20:36
|
|
|
Aranan posted:I started reading that Prince of Nothing book recommended a while back. I already miss Erikson's names. I don't see how that is in any way worse than Erikson. Less apostrophes for once. Also, Anasurimbor is kinda a big deal in the series.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2015 21:40
|
|
|
Cardiac posted:I don't see how that is in any way worse than Erikson. All the weird dots and dashes above the letters. Give me some apostrophes any day over that poo poo. They're at least English.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2015 21:42
|
|
|
Man these naming conventions are really ruing my suspension of disbelief in this story about space raptors with swords for hands.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2015 22:04
|
|
|
Bakker's name really struck me more Tolkienesque than anything. Still, the barrage in the prologues is probably the worst of it, there's not that many characters once the plot gets going.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2015 22:15
|
|
|
Zeitgueist posted:Man these naming conventions are really ruing my suspension of disbelief in this story about space raptors with swords for hands. It's easier to believe in sword-handed space dinosaurs than some dude with half a dozen dots in his name.  Dots, for crying out loud!
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2015 22:30
|
|
|
Habibi posted:It's easier to believe in sword-handed space dinosaurs than some dude with half a dozen dots in his name. Though to be fair the sword handed space dinosaurs had their introduction spaced out over a few books if I remember correctly - it's not like suddenly you hear about these amazing techno dinosaurs who have been almost completely exterminated. Actually I think they're my favourite fantasy species in literature because of how well it was done.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2015 22:36
|
|
|
Bakker's names are ridiculous, but not any more ridiculous than most fantasy names, and some of them do a good job of bearing real mythic weight (Golgotterath is a great name for a really lovely place). The problem is that he doesn't do a good job of sorting them into linguistic groups - you can't look at a given name and easily tell what culture it comes from.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2015 22:54
|
|
|
Thanks for the ICE recommendations guys, looks like I'll just read them after I'm done with the main series if I'm desiring more Malazan at that point. Still working through Deadhouse Gates and, man, (spoilers Deadhouse Gates up to around 500 pages in) holy poo poo guys Coltaine's march is just loving incredible. I mean, the way Erikson describes it is fascinating, frightening, incredible, exhausting, thirst inducing, disgusting, mind boggling in scope, and all sorts of other adjectives. I really can't get enough of this plot line. It's gotta be one of the, if not the best descriptions of an military/refugee exodus march I've ever read/seen. All the new characters are really cool, and I didn't really care that a lot of the cast from Gardens of the Moon are absent. The few GotM characters we do get are enough to keep me happy in that regard. As far as new characters I'm especially liking Mappo/Icarium/Pust. I wish there was more of them, frankly. I haven't gotten much of them in comparison to everyone else, at least up to page ~475. The only character that kind of bothers me is Felisin, mainly because she is such a loving rear end in a top hat and I can't really understand why she's quite so toxic and cynical to those around her. I mean, I'd get it if she didn't lay it on so goddamn thick, but it seems a bit like she's overreacting. She's went through some poo poo, for sure, but it's not Baudin/Heboric/Kulp's fault so why take it out on them so goddamn hard? Malazan engineers/sappers are so awesome and man I just wanna be one of them dudes, laughing maniacally while chucking/planting medieval style claymores, incendiaries, and shrapnel bombs at people. The part after the river crossing where they were described as crying to a man because of having to use up all their cussers was hilarious. Those dudes love their explosives more than life itself. Also when they described the Semk dude they hit as "The hairy one" then another chimes in "He ain't hairy no more" had me loling. Also when the dude with the pierced lung from an arrow is trying to walk it off like a bad rear end and his squadmate says something like "You won't be able to breath with blood in your lungs" and he replied "I've shared a tent with you, I can breath anything" was great too. I love their banter and wish we got to see more of them (besides Fiddler/Hedge, I mean) than the very small amount so far. I hope we see much more in future novels. Deadhouse Gates is loving amazing. It started off slow but man since I've hit the halfway point I can't stop reading or thinking about it. I don't know if I'm prepared for the end because like I said in an earlier post, I can tell poo poo is going to go down hardcore and I don't know if my tiny palpitating human heart is going to be able to handle it. Damo fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Feb 4, 2015 |
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2015 23:57
|
|
|
General Battuta posted:Bakker's names are ridiculous, but not any more ridiculous than most fantasy names, and some of them do a good job of bearing real mythic weight (Golgotterath is a great name for a really lovely place). The problem is that he doesn't do a good job of sorting them into linguistic groups - you can't look at a given name and easily tell what culture it comes from. You mean Golgotha? I have some degree of tolerance for Fantasy Names (read: I can handle Anomander Purake, First Son Of Darkness and his sword Dragnipur) but "Kūniüric" is just bananas. I get it, Tolkien was a linguist, so I guess some authors derive fantasy cred from parroting him, but I don't find reading faux fantasy languages particularly satisfying, particularly when there's no real insights to come from them. Compare with, say, 1984's treatment of the linguistics where it has a narrative consequence, instead of 'I made a word that people will need to consult multiple wikipedia pages to try and pronounce, boosh', now let's make one with some other modifiers.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 00:00
|
|
|
Velius posted:You mean Golgotha? Yeah, that's why it works. quote:I have some degree of tolerance for Fantasy Names (read: I can handle Anomander Purake, First Son Of Darkness and his sword Dragnipur) but "Kūniüric" is just bananas. I get it, Tolkien was a linguist, so I guess some authors derive fantasy cred from parroting him, but I don't find reading faux fantasy languages particularly satisfying, particularly when there's no real insights to come from them. Compare with, say, 1984's treatment of the linguistics where it has a narrative consequence, instead of 'I made a word that people will need to consult multiple wikipedia pages to try and pronounce, boosh', now let's make one with some other modifiers. Like I said, Bakker's names are ridiculous and not well done. They're archetypical fantasy names invented by someone who doesn't get linguistics.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 00:04
|
|
|
Damo, reading your exuberant first read through play by plays has inspired me to read through this series again. Keep it up.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 00:04
|
|
|
Damo posted:The only character that kind of bothers me is Felisin, mainly because she is such a loving rear end in a top hat and I can't really understand why she's quite so toxic and cynical to those around her. I mean, I'd get it if she didn't lay it on so goddamn thick, but it seems a bit like she's overreacting. She's went through some poo poo, for sure, but it's not Baudin/Heboric/Kulp's fault so why take it out on them so goddamn hard? You're not supposed to like her, she's a tragic character, but she has been literally humiliated, threatened with death, tortured, sold into slavery by her only living relative, seen traumatic horrors, and is now an addict selling her body to an abusive boyfriend. She's lashing out at those she can, not because they're actually at fault, but because they're the only ones she has. This is actually pretty well done in regards to how people react in similar traumatic situations. You may not like her, but you should feel for her. As someone says earlier one running theme in the series is how people reactor poorly when treated poorly. quote:Deadhouse Gates is loving amazing. It started off slow but man since I've hit the halfway point I can't stop reading or thinking about it. I don't know if I'm prepared for the end because like I said in an earlier post, I can tell poo poo is going to go down hardcore and I don't know if my tiny palpitating human heart is going to be able to handle it. There's a reason why the standard instruction after someone says "Meh" to GotM is to give book 2 a try, it's a significant jump in quality.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 00:49
|
|
|
quote:Deadhouse Gates is loving amazing. It started off slow but man since I've hit the halfway point I can't stop reading or thinking about it. I don't know if I'm prepared for the end because like I said in an earlier post, I can tell poo poo is going to go down hardcore and I don't know if my tiny palpitating human heart is going to be able to handle it. There just isn't enough  in the world to describe how I feel for you and can't wait for the next post.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 00:51
|
|
|
Yeah I never reread books and I am starting the series again. What would you guys say is the weakest book, not counting the first? I don't remember disliking any book but I do recall having to skim some parts.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 00:57
|
|
|
Captain Monkey posted:Damo, reading your exuberant first read through play by plays has inspired me to read through this series again. Keep it up. I struggled though Gardens of the Moon last year with not much idea what in the gently caress was happening most of the time then gave up on Deadhouse Gates for similar reasons maybe 100 pages in or so (can't recall for sure). I'd like to give this series another try though.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 01:24
|
|
|
Hand Row posted:Yeah I never reread books and I am starting the series again. What would you guys say is the weakest book, not counting the first? I don't remember disliking any book but I do recall having to skim some parts. Toll the Hounds. The embodiment of "too many words." Narrated by Kruppe.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 01:34
|
|
|
Dust of Dreams is probably my least favorite. It has the "too many words" problem that started in TTH and it also introduced too much brand new mysterious stuff(the Snake, ghost mountain) at too late a time in the series for my liking. Toll The Hounds was my least favorite before rereading it prior to DoD's release. I enjoyed the reread of it enough that I've done it again since, and it now ranks pretty highly for me. savinhill fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Feb 4, 2015 |
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 01:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2024 21:18 |
|
|
Zeitgueist posted:You're not supposed to like her, she's a tragic character, but she has been literally humiliated, threatened with death, tortured, sold into slavery by her only living relative, seen traumatic horrors, and is now an addict selling her body to an abusive boyfriend. She's lashing out at those she can, not because they're actually at fault, but because they're the only ones she has. This is actually pretty well done in regards to how people react in similar traumatic situations. You may not like her, but you should feel for her. As someone says earlier one running theme in the series is how people reactor poorly when treated poorly. This is a good explanation and I feel silly and rather ashamed that I didn't read it like this. I mean, I knew she wasn't meant to be a likable character, and I didn't necessarily blame her for what she's doing, but I guess I kind of didn't understand it. Now I do. Thank you. Shockeh posted:There just isn't enough 
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 03:52
|
|