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Chamale posted:Invading Earth to kill all humans is not terribly difficult. If you have a ship that travels near the speed of light, all you need for an apocalypse is to fly an empty one into the planet at top speed. If you have an engine that can drive you from one solar system to another, you have a weapon that can destroy things really easily. Near-c velocity not a requirement.
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Feb 4, 2015 19:42
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Phanatic posted:If you have an engine that can drive you from one solar system to another, you have a weapon that can destroy things really easily. Near-c velocity not a requirement. Yeah, but if the hypothetical alien attackers use something like that it makes for a pretty short story. "Once upon a time aliens flew a big rock into the Earth at relativistic speeds and everyone died. The End."
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Feb 4, 2015 19:44
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Arquinsiel posted:Do not denigrate HFY. It is the only thing that will keep us going when the space-commies arrive What's OCP mean in this context
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Feb 4, 2015 19:53
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:Yeah, but if the hypothetical alien attackers use something like that it makes for a pretty short story. "Once upon a time aliens flew a big rock into the Earth at relativistic speeds and everyone died. The End." 
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Feb 4, 2015 19:55
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Frostwerks posted:What's OCP mean in this context
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Feb 4, 2015 19:58
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Frostwerks posted:What's OCP mean in this context Outside Context Problem. Essentially something which is so far out of your reference frame you can't consider it occurring until it does. Coined by Iain Banks, the usual example given to illustrate an Outside Context Problem was imagining you were a tribe on a largish, fertile island; you'd tamed the land, invented the wheel or writing or whatever, the neighbors were cooperative or enslaved but at any rate peaceful and you were busy raising temples to yourself with all the excess productive capacity you had, you were in a position of near-absolute power and control which your hallowed ancestors could hardly have dreamed of and the whole situation was just running along nicely like a canoe on wet grass... when suddenly this bristling lump of iron appears sailless and trailing steam in the bay and these guys carrying long funny-looking sticks come ashore and announce you've just been discovered, you're all subjects of the Emperor now, he's keen on presents called tax and these bright-eyed holy men would like a word with your priests.
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Feb 4, 2015 20:04
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:The plans that the Germans did have for a Channel crossing weren't predicated on anything like taking time to develop the necessary equipment and procedures. They were going to tow river barges stuffed with troops and horses and guns at a sea snail's pace under cover of night with what (utterly insufficient) naval escorts they could deploy and basically cross their fingers that the Royal Navy didn't notice in time to cut them to pieces with a few destroyers. I haven't seen that many drowned germans since the General Slocum, Am I right or what? *crowd booing*
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Feb 4, 2015 20:31
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:Yeah, but if the hypothetical alien attackers use something like that it makes for a pretty short story. "Once upon a time aliens flew a big rock into the Earth at relativistic speeds and everyone died. The End." Hell with enough mass they wouldn't even need to hit the planet. Just zip something past at relativistic speeds and the distortion to spacetime would do all sorts of poo poo and we'd almost never see it coming.
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Feb 4, 2015 20:35
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:The plans that the Germans did have for a Channel crossing weren't predicated on anything like taking time to develop the necessary equipment and procedures. They were going to tow river barges stuffed with troops and horses and guns at a sea snail's pace under cover of night with what (utterly insufficient) naval escorts they could deploy and basically cross their fingers that the Royal Navy didn't notice in time to cut them to pieces with a few destroyers. If I remember correctly from reading about their test landings to see how feasible it was, it would have been a disaster even without being under attack. They couldn't handle the weather conditions and ended up drifting all over the landing zone, and more than one outright capsized or otherwise sank. I think they actually had multiple deaths from the test.
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Feb 4, 2015 21:01
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clearly in a struggle with a militarily superior alien force humanity would win via revival of the most fabulous uniform traditions human history ever produced
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Feb 4, 2015 21:15
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FAUXTON posted:Hell with enough mass they wouldn't even need to hit the planet. Just zip something past at relativistic speeds and the distortion to spacetime would do all sorts of poo poo and we'd almost never see it coming. Upon that day the sun took on a paisley pattern much loved by 1980's slum motel owners for carpeting.
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Feb 4, 2015 21:16
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chitoryu12 posted:If I remember correctly from reading about their test landings to see how feasible it was, it would have been a disaster even without being under attack. They couldn't handle the weather conditions and ended up drifting all over the landing zone, and more than one outright capsized or otherwise sank. I think they actually had multiple deaths from the test. While I understand the difference, the Allies struggled significantly with rehearsals as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_Tiger If you rehearsals are any good and allow you to learn for something of that ambitious a scale, people probably die.
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Feb 4, 2015 21:58
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Re: tanks in water chat:       Moral of this story: don't go into the water if you aren't sure you're going to be able to get out of it. Also I'm pretty sure these were taken in like March or something, I'm shivering just thinking about those divers.
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Feb 4, 2015 22:05
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S-Tank?
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Feb 4, 2015 22:08
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Rhymenoserous posted:Upon that day the sun took on a paisley pattern much loved by 1980's slum motel owners for carpeting. Well it'd be more like "and then the moon fell down."
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Feb 4, 2015 22:19
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Rabhadh posted:S-Tank? Yeah. It came with a fabric screen that you erected around the edge of the tank, which trapped enough air that it was capable of floating (at least until the C model in the 80's, which added enough weight to make it dangerous). Took about 15-20 minutes to prepare, and the tracks were enough propulsion to make it able to slowboat around at a few km/h in the water. Obviously not suitable to ocean conditions, but for crossing calm rivers and lakes it was good enough. Usually the main problem was finding safe places where you could get in and out of the water. It was definitely to get stuck as in the experiment above (it's from 1969, back when they were writing the manuals on the thing). Compared to a regular snorkel the advantages were that the complete screen could be permanently stowed on the tank and that the water depth or bottom conditions weren't limiting factors. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Feb 4, 2015 |
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Feb 4, 2015 22:29
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:Yeah, but if the hypothetical alien attackers use something like that it makes for a pretty short story. "Once upon a time aliens flew a big rock into the Earth at relativistic speeds and everyone died. The End." There's a great story using exactly this concept: We Made A Mistake. edit: But don't read the comments and don't read Part II. Chamale fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Feb 5, 2015 |
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Feb 5, 2015 00:19
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nothing to seehere posted:Iain M. Banks While I like his writing style, both the one Culture novel I read and Algebraist (the 'I wanted to writo something different than Culture' book) dodged HFY only because it's all AI-FY (joining such luminaries like Polity series). Plus, explanation of why 'life is a simulation' is the only good religion is almost verbatim in both books. If someone was to recommend me something, than by all means, please do. More on topic: Norman invasion the last good invasion of England? I'm king of surprised that WWII Germans couldn't invade something on their doorstep when the British managed to do Gallipoli in WWI.
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Feb 5, 2015 02:55
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Well it did turn into Gallipoli, which would have been the best plausible outcome of Sealion!
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Feb 5, 2015 02:57
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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JcDent posted:While I like his writing style, both the one Culture novel I read and Algebraist (the 'I wanted to writo something different than Culture' book) dodged HFY only because it's all AI-FY (joining such luminaries like Polity series). Plus, explanation of why 'life is a simulation' is the only good religion is almost verbatim in both books.
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Feb 5, 2015 03:11
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 Plausible alien invasion story here.
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Feb 5, 2015 03:22
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JcDent posted:While I like his writing style, both the one Culture novel I read and Algebraist (the 'I wanted to writo something different than Culture' book) dodged HFY only because it's all AI-FY (joining such luminaries like Polity series). Plus, explanation of why 'life is a simulation' is the only good religion is almost verbatim in both books. What I mean, I don't think he's HFY because he's actually kinda sour on a lot of H. They can be quite good but also bad. The whole AI-FY is his way of going "nevermind the how, assume we start with a utopia. Okay, how do we gently caress with it." So it's not really AI-FY but AI's good enough to run a utopia (and, since we're dealing with essentially post-scarcity space opera, realistically handle the serious pew-pew aspects of the setting) are kind of part of the package. The OCP novel, Excession, is really quite good. Throwing the an aforementioned OCP at a post-scarcity space utopia and letting that play out. The AI's don't come out super well. The thing with the Culture novels is that they all take place around the periphery pretty much by default being either citizens to problematic for the utopia to fit well or folks from outside the Culture being drawn into the orbit. Most of the novels deal with, in some way, the ethics of a utopia. Especially w/r/t intervention. This is repeated on micro and macro scales. F'r instance, Excession is on one level about how the AI's handle the OCP (and what the OCP does about them), on one level about the AI's dealing with a cartoonishly vile (but within their own context perfectly moral) tentacle aliens, and then on another level looking at how the utopia processes problematic people (what do you do with someone who want's an exclusive relationship but falls in love with someone more into the freewheeling polyamory more common in the Culture? What do you do with a guy who just... is kinda a self-centered narcissist who doesn't really fit with the Culture?) And it's all kinda muddy as to what the best way forward for any of these folks is, and who you really ought to be rooting for. (Probably not the tentacle dudes, even if, well, they're kinda being hosed over by everyone.) IDK, it's kinda my sleeper favorite of the Culture novels, and OCP is one of those perfect terms that I never really knew I needed but just really works for some poo poo.
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Feb 5, 2015 04:25
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Maybe this discussion is better off in the Science Fiction thread down in the Book Barn: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3554972&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1
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Feb 5, 2015 05:12
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I've always thought the problem with Aliens Invade (tm) tropes isn't because of the hoop-jumping required to make humans win. It's because of the sheer pointlessness of them invading in the first place. If a civilization can cross interstellar space then there is literally nothing on Earth that they could possibly want that isn't cheaper and easier to obtain in space. IIRC there are more ores and metals in one decent sized rock in Sol's asteroid belt than have ever been mined from earth during the entirety of history, cumulatively. The only reason anyone would ever visit earth with malicious intent is to collect specimens/artifacts as souvenirs and out of scientific curiosity. There is nothing we have that an interstellar civilisation would value in a commercial sense and assuming that earth is so special that anyone would ever bother invading is enormously arrogant. I know this is from a few pages back but when I asked 'what happens normally' w.r.t. turret baskets, I meant what happens to the commander, gunner and loader in a tank without a turret basket? Now that I know what one is, I've realised that every time I visualise a tank interior in my mind, it has a turret basket and I have no idea how one is laid out if it hasn't got one. I also wasn't aware that the T-34 doesn't have one; clearly it can't be a very big drawback at all.
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Feb 5, 2015 05:31
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I've heard it said that Aliens Invade™ would be a fantastic vehicle for an allegory for the experience of colonized nations, and wonder if any have really done that. Incidentally, any really interesting stuff from that period? I know some of the battles in India like Assaye were surprisingly sanguinary, but were there any interesting adaptations or anything that people would want to post about? The commander and gunner sit in chairs that turn with the turret. The loader has clear access to ammo stowage on the tank's floor. This is a pretty nice thing to have. Not sure how he moves with the turret really.
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Feb 5, 2015 05:40
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Ok I'm having a really hard time understanding this. I thought that WAS a turret basket? Like I thought the whole point of it was so all the turret crew were sitting in chairs connected to the turret? I'm having real difficulty visualising the difference.
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Feb 5, 2015 05:51
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As xthetenth said the turret crew generally sits on chairs that move with the rotation of the turret. The T-34's loader had one for travel (I believe?) but since the ammo that he was supposed to be loading was on the floor (at least in the earlier T-34s) he would need to be moving about to get to the shells. The upside is that it means he's got access to all of the ammo boxes but the downside is that he has to be aware of what the turret is doing at all times, less he catch a breach in the back. A turret basket is basically a 'floor' that is connected to the interior of the turret and allows for someone standing up to turn with the turret. This limits access to things under the basket depending upon the orientation of the turret (the floors are typically not a full circle), but it was also often used as a location for ready rounds to be easily accessible to the loader, allowing for a more rapid loading process until they're expired, at which point the loader gets the shells stored elsewhere and either A) continues with the reloading process or B) fills the ready rack with them. Depending upon if the tank is in combat or not, of course. Taerkar fucked around with this message at 05:57 on Feb 5, 2015 |
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Feb 5, 2015 05:54
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Right. So in a basketed tank there are a bunch of shells arrayed around the basket, and when those run out the loader has to go through the considerable inconvenience of retrieving them from other parts of the tank/having another crew member pass them to him. Am I understanding this correctly? Cause it seems that in a prolonged fight a basket would work against you unless you had time to stop for a few minutes and transfer a bunch of shells to the basket racks. e: How are modern MBT's laid out with regards to this? Slavvy fucked around with this message at 06:06 on Feb 5, 2015 |
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Feb 5, 2015 05:58
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xthetenth posted:I've heard it said that Aliens Invade™ would be a fantastic vehicle for an allegory for the experience of colonized nations, and wonder if any have really done that. Incidentally, any really interesting stuff from that period? I know some of the battles in India like Assaye were surprisingly sanguinary, but were there any interesting adaptations or anything that people would want to post about? When the loader is sitting, he does it automatically. When the loader is standing, he has to shuffle about in order to keep oriented in the right direction. Taerkar posted:As xthetenth said the turret crew generally sits on chairs that move with the rotation of the turret. The T-34's loader had one for travel (I believe?) but since the ammo that he was supposed to be loading was on the floor (at least in the earlier T-34s) he would need to be moving about to get to the shells. The upside is that it means he's got access to all of the ammo boxes but the downside is that he has to be aware of what the turret is doing at all times, less he catch a breach in the back. All T-34s had most of their ammunition stored on the floor. Slavvy posted:Right. So in a basketed tank there are a bunch of shells arrayed around the basket, and when those run out the loader has to go through the considerable inconvenience of retrieving them from other parts of the tank/having another crew member pass them to him. Am I understanding this correctly? Cause it seems that in a prolonged fight a basket would work against you unless you had time to stop for a few minutes and transfer a bunch of shells to the basket racks. Yes, although battles where you would empty your ready rack and have to keep firing are few and far between. Modern MBTs have their ammo stacked in autoloaders that can load the majority of the tank's ammo at the same speed. Unless you're American, of course.
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Feb 5, 2015 06:08
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xthetenth posted:I've heard it said that Aliens Invade™ would be a fantastic vehicle for an allegory for the experience of colonized nations, and wonder if any have really done that. War of the Worlds is literally that, complete with the invaders being laid low by local diseases against which they have no defenses. (I know, I know, spoilers but gently caress that the book is over a century old)
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Feb 5, 2015 06:12
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Someone asked a while back about when the last time a head of state led his military into combat was. It is now "yesterday" when the King of Jordan flew bombing raids on ISIS in Iraq. Both  and 
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Feb 5, 2015 06:16
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honestly i'm of the opinion that every nation head should put their rear end on the line when at war, maybe we'd have less of the buggers
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Feb 5, 2015 06:18
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Arquinsiel posted:Someone asked a while back about when the last time a head of state led his military into combat was. was that the guy who was also on star trek
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Feb 5, 2015 06:18
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This guy? Seems plausible.
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Feb 5, 2015 06:19
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Slavvy posted:e: How are modern MBT's laid out with regards to this? Autoloader or huge turret ready rack with most of the ammo, and if you're German and stupid, you've got ammo in the front next to the driver too. ArchangeI posted:War of the Worlds is literally that, complete with the invaders being laid low by local diseases against which they have no defenses. (I know, I know, spoilers but gently caress that the book is over a century old) Last I checked that one was missing the lifetimes of brutal subjugation bit, but it does get the terrifying invasion from an unexpected elsewhere.
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Feb 5, 2015 06:20
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the JJ posted:What I mean, I don't think he's HFY because he's actually kinda sour on a lot of H. They can be quite good but also bad. The whole AI-FY is his way of going "nevermind the how, assume we start with a utopia. Okay, how do we gently caress with it." So it's not really AI-FY but AI's good enough to run a utopia (and, since we're dealing with essentially post-scarcity space opera, realistically handle the serious pew-pew aspects of the setting) are kind of part of the package. The OCP novel, Excession, is really quite good. Throwing the an aforementioned OCP at a post-scarcity space utopia and letting that play out. The AI's don't come out super well. I am a fan of Iain M Banks (currently reading Excession) but can you please explain all these acronyms so we can participate? They are not obvious and Google turns nothing.
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Feb 5, 2015 06:22
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ArchangeI posted:War of the Worlds is literally that, complete with the invaders being laid low by local diseases against which they have no defenses. (I know, I know, spoilers but gently caress that the book is over a century old) That's more like the opposite of how it played out on Earth itself. Syphilis is the only major disease to have originated in the Americas! I would be ok with a book that depicted Aliens invading Earth but collapse when they realize they've been contaminated with STIs
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Feb 5, 2015 06:31
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:That's more like the opposite of how it played out on Earth itself. Syphilis is the only major disease to have originated in the Americas!
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Feb 5, 2015 06:36
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:That's more like the opposite of how it played out on Earth itself. Syphilis is the only major disease to have originated in the Americas! This is pretty realistic because the second or third thing on the list of priorities upon encountering space aliens would be 'can I stick my dick in them?'
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Feb 5, 2015 06:36
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xthetenth posted:I've heard it said that Aliens Invade™ would be a fantastic vehicle for an allegory for the experience of colonized nations, and wonder if any have really done that. Incidentally, any really interesting stuff from that period? The seminal alien invasion novel, War of the Worlds, specifically mentions the genocide of Tasmanians as an allegory for the invasion. But unlike the real invasions by Europeans, the invaders are the ones destroyed by foreign diseases.
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Feb 5, 2015 06:37
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