D&D NEXT: Infinite Posts of the Abyss

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Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

ActusRhesus posted:

Also chuckling at a discussion that went from "magic users are gods" to "rest periods are unfair" sorry you don't get to spam fire ball or whatever.

You are not reading the thread. No one is complaining about rest periods being unfair to magic users - they are pointing out that the idea of balancing casters out with rest periods is not a good mechanic for a lot of different reasons, and the idea that fighters/rogues should ALSO have to rest just doesn't make any sense if the purpose of rest is to balance out caster power.

Then people started a general talk about the philosophical merits of downtime, and it was pointed out that D&D (and D&D Next) don't have good mechanics for it.

Kitchner posted:

Why would you even bother with a horse that wasn't a skeleton?

Sadly there are no rules for turning everything with a skeletal structure you encounter into a skeleton. Your DM would have to make a ruling on whether, and how, the Necromancer can turn the horse skeleton into a skeletal steed.

Laphroaig fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Feb 5, 2015

# ? Feb 5, 2015 16:19

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# ? May 13, 2024 23:11

goatface: Dec 5, 2007; I had a video of that when I was about 6.

I remember it being shit.; Grimey Drawer

Ditch the idea of the short rest entirely, just make every class daily based. Give the Fighter guy about four times their level in superiority dice per day, then give them some moves at high levels that cost 4 or 5 to use. Ramp up the number of ki points and rage options and whatever else similarly.

gently caress it, switch to an MP-based casting system at the same time.

# ? Feb 5, 2015 16:26

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

Kitchner posted:

I think the major gripe some people have here is that instead of talking about the cool stuff that does exist in the game, or how you can make the game workable, it just seems to be full of the problems.

The core problem is that literally every cool thing in Next is done better elsewhere, often in a book with D&D on the cover. And there isn't enough of it to justify the investment, designing work-arounds for garbage or non-existing systems, or compromising my conscious over consultant-gate.

quote:

I would question what the point in this thread actually is.

This is the only place on the internet that isn't totally boners over how real true D&D is back power to the DM lovely rules means I can DO ANYTHING WITH MY IMAGINATION!

It's refreshing to see Next discussed in an environment where it's OK to actually discuss it, and criticism doesn't get dismissed out of hand as "4e lover grognard sour grapes" or whatever. Next is a bad game. It's fun to talk about bad things, executed poorly.

Mearls is also a trainwreck that never stops giving. There are a lot of good laughs yet to come from his Twitter, even if it is just unintentional catchphrase humor.

# ? Feb 5, 2015 16:28

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

goatface posted:

Ditch the idea of the short rest entirely, just make every class daily based. Give the Fighter guy about four times their level in superiority dice per day, then give them some moves at high levels that cost 4 or 5 to use. Ramp up the number of ki points and rage options and whatever else similarly.

gently caress it, switch to an MP-based casting system at the same time.

I wonder what it'd take for Dreamscarred Press to get a license to make Path of War for 5th Edition

moths posted:

Mearls is also a trainwreck that never stops giving. There are a lot of good laughs yet to come from his Twitter, even if it is just unintentional catchphrase humor.

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/01/sneak-attack-d6/

@mikemearls Can thrown weapons be used for sneak attack damage? Seems to go against the qualifiers of sneak attack being Ranged-Finesse

@DarthJerod yes, they can. basically, as a DM feel free to let the rogue sneak attack with anything that deals a d6 or less

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/02/04/changelings-shapeshift/

@mikemearls @Jacobonaut does the Changeling's shapeshift ability work like the polymorph spell including taking on the new forms stats?

@Gyor1 @Jacobonaut nope - stats remain the same

gradenko_2000 fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Feb 5, 2015

# ? Feb 5, 2015 16:39

Kitchner: Nov 9, 2012; IT CAN'T BE BARGAINED WITH.
IT CAN'T BE REASONED WITH.
IT DOESN'T FEEL PITY, OR REMORSE, OR FEAR.
AND IT ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT STOP, EVER, UNTIL YOU ADMIT YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT WARHAMMER; Clapping Larry

Laphroaig posted:

Sadly there are no rules for turning everything with a skeletal structure you encounter into a skeleton. Your DM would have to make a ruling on whether, and how, the Necromancer can turn the horse skeleton into a skeletal steed.

There's a 3rd level necromancer spell that can reanimate a skeleton and it is bound to your will for 24 hours. So you need to buy a horse, kill it, skin it and remove all the meat, wash the skeleton so it looks cool and not bloody. Maybe bleach and polish the bones too.

Then cast the spell on it.

# ? Feb 5, 2015 16:39

goatface: Dec 5, 2007; I had a video of that when I was about 6.

I remember it being shit.; Grimey Drawer

A skeleton horse, a nice horse-skin rug, and meat for ages! It's totally win-win situation.

# ? Feb 5, 2015 16:42

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Kitchner posted:

There's a 3rd level necromancer spell that can reanimate a skeleton and it is bound to your will for 24 hours. So you need to buy a horse, kill it, skin it and remove all the meat, wash the skeleton so it looks cool and not bloody. Maybe bleach and polish the bones too.

Then cast the spell on it.

yeah except the spell Animate Dead that you are referring to doesn't do that.

code:

This spell creates an undead servant. Choose a pile
of bones or a corpse of a Medium or Small humanoid
within range. Your spell imbues the target with a foul
mimicry of life, raising it as an undead creature. The
target becomes a skeleton if you chose bones or a
zombie if you chose a corpse (the DM has the creature�s
game statistics).

It makes a skeleton as per the Monster Manual and it works on a pile of medium humanoid bones. It doesn't do anything more than that. You'd need to get the DM to agree to let you make a new spell. And then you get to go down the rabbit hole of turning <X> into a skeleton, and what level spell is that, etc, considering that Create Undead exists as a 6th level spell and lets you make ghouls/ghasts/wights/mummies.

Laphroaig fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Feb 5, 2015

# ? Feb 5, 2015 16:52

Tunicate: May 15, 2012

Just put two human skeletons in a horse costume.

# ? Feb 5, 2015 16:59

IT BEGINS: Jan 15, 2009; I don't know how to make analogies

So how likely is it that we'll be getting a psionics book/article/whatever soon? Seems like it should be soon, if they skipped Kalashtar in this update and it's a fairly cool part of the setting.

# ? Feb 5, 2015 16:59

Small Strange Bird: Sep 22, 2006; Merci, chaton!

Laphroaig posted:

It makes a skeleton as per the Monster Manual and it works on a pile of medium humanoid bones. It doesn't do anything more than that. You'd need to get the DM to agree to let you make a new spell. And then you get to go down the rabbit hole of turning <X> into a skeleton, and what level spell is that, etc, considering that Create Undead exists as a 6th level spell and lets you make ghouls/ghasts/wights/mummies.

Can you make a horse-mummy?

# ? Feb 5, 2015 17:00

homullus: Mar 27, 2009

Tunicate posted:

Just put two human skeletons in a horse costume.

If liches were horses, beggars would . . . probably be the first to die.

# ? Feb 5, 2015 17:02

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Tunicate posted:

Just put two human skeletons in a horse costume.

Payndz posted:

Can you make a horse-mummy?

Depends on if the illusion clips through the floor or not

or since its a horse, if the illusion CLOPS through the floor :classiclol:

# ? Feb 5, 2015 17:05

Kitchner: Nov 9, 2012; IT CAN'T BE BARGAINED WITH.
IT CAN'T BE REASONED WITH.
IT DOESN'T FEEL PITY, OR REMORSE, OR FEAR.
AND IT ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT STOP, EVER, UNTIL YOU ADMIT YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT WARHAMMER; Clapping Larry

Laphroaig posted:

yeah except the spell Animate Dead that you are referring to doesn't do that.
code:
This spell creates an undead servant. Choose a pile
of bones or a corpse of a Medium or Small humanoid
within range. Your spell imbues the target with a foul
mimicry of life, raising it as an undead creature. The
target becomes a skeleton if you chose bones or a
zombie if you chose a corpse (the DM has the creature&#8217;s
game statistics).
It makes a skeleton as per the Monster Manual and it works on a pile of medium humanoid bones. It doesn't do anything more than that. You'd need to get the DM to agree to let you make a new spell. And then you get to go down the rabbit hole of turning <X> into a skeleton, and what level spell is that, etc, considering that Create Undead exists as a 6th level spell and lets you make ghouls/ghasts/wights/mummies.

Well if DnD isn't going to mechanically support my skeletal steed that lives inside the rib cage of my skeleton elephant with my character without slightly altering the rules then I don't see a reason why I should play the game :colbert:

Kitchner fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Feb 5, 2015

# ? Feb 5, 2015 17:07

Kitchner: Nov 9, 2012; IT CAN'T BE BARGAINED WITH.
IT CAN'T BE REASONED WITH.
IT DOESN'T FEEL PITY, OR REMORSE, OR FEAR.
AND IT ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT STOP, EVER, UNTIL YOU ADMIT YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT WARHAMMER; Clapping Larry

Also can I just say I find the spell list really loving annoying. Why are they Al lumped together alphabetically instead of categorised (e.g. all illusion spells) and then organised alphabetically? It's annoying if you just want to say browse all the necromancer spells.

# ? Feb 5, 2015 17:10

ImpactVector: Feb 24, 2007; HAHAHAHA FOOLS!!
I AM SO SMART!

Uh oh. What did he do now?; Nap Ghost

Kitchner posted:

Also can I just say I find the spell list really loving annoying. Why are they Al lumped together alphabetically instead of categorised (e.g. all illusion spells) and then organised alphabetically? It's annoying if you just want to say browse all the necromancer spells.

It's alphabetical because monsters are using the same list. Not to mention all the random references to it like it's a list of generic effects.

# ? Feb 5, 2015 17:15

ocrumsprug: Sep 23, 2010; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Yeah, despite it appearance in the players guide, it isn't a caster list. It is actually the building block of large parts of the rest of the system.

The fact it is correctly laid out for its role in the system shows a surprising awareness on the part of the authors. It does suck to use it for what it appears to be for.

# ? Feb 5, 2015 17:30

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Kitchner posted:

Well if DnD isn't going to mechanically support my skeletal steed that lives inside the rib cage of my skeleton elephant with my character without slightly altering the rules then I don't see a reason why I should play the game

so the design space already has two spell elements in it: animate dead and create undead
the monster design space has: skeletons, zombies, mummies, ghasts, wights, ghouls

so the easy way to do it is, take what you can make with Create Undead and figure out the value of a Skelephant based on the how good 4 ghouls would be. then set the skelephants stat block to be equal to that. Or something similar.

now you just have to consider the relative strength of the action economy of 4 lesser undead vs. 1 larger undead, and see if the higher level slots of the spell to make wights/mummies etc respect that, or if the spell Create Undead is itself fundamentally flawed.

of course the rulebook does not describe how to do this, or make suggestions on how to do this, and I only have the vaguest idea on how to do it because its not my first skeletal steed rodeo. a good game whose stated goal is that you can tinker with it, slightly altering the rules to make changes you want, would have guidelines for that tinkering. D&D Next really does not have these guidelines and that is a major flaw.

but don't worry i am sure there will be a module.

# ? Feb 5, 2015 17:45

goatface: Dec 5, 2007; I had a video of that when I was about 6.

I remember it being shit.; Grimey Drawer

Take horse, add bludgeoning vulnerability, give intimidate bonus to rider. Hurrah!

# ? Feb 5, 2015 17:56

Drone: Aug 22, 2003; Incredible machine

Piell posted:

You buy an RPG for the rules. D&D Next has aggressively mediocre rules bolted on to a handwave of "Ask your DM!"

From the outside looking in as someone with only limited experience with D&D, this is the major takeaway I get when I read stuff about 5e. 4e, for better or worse, was a pretty major departure from 3.5 before it, and in many ways brought a lot of innovation to the brand. 5e just feels like a kneejerk to the old guard's reaction to 4e, and it feels like Wizards' intention all along was to just make the safest, most boring distillation of 3.5 possible in order to appease those who thought that 4e was awful (though pretty much everyone I know who's played 4e has really enjoyed it, then again it's one of those your mileage may vary things).

I'm totally open the idea of 5e though, just as I was with 3.5 and 4e before it. It's all about the group you play with.

# ? Feb 5, 2015 18:04

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Drone posted:

4e, for better or worse, was a pretty major departure from 3.5 before it

I'm slowly coming around to the idea that 4E was an honest attempt at fixing 3.5E's issues rather than trying to reinvent the wheel all by itself.

Increased HP levels and general survivability came from player feedback that the best battles were those where the party took a beating, then "figured out" the boss, then came back swinging, but you needed battles to last longer than 2 rounds for that dynamic to play out.

Healing surges and the AEDU model of powers were an attempt to address the problem of the 15-minute workday and the lack of inter-encounter tension.

Powers across all classes and non-magical sources of power were an attempt to address the problem of caster supremacy.

The skill system is straight out of Unearthed Arcana and ended up being very similar to Pathfinder, just with more streamlined skill categories.

I mean, I guess you could say that the AEDU model came out of left field, but only if you never bought into the idea that caster supremacy was a problem that needed fixing in the first place.

# ? Feb 5, 2015 18:38

homullus: Mar 27, 2009

gradenko_2000 posted:

I mean, I guess you could say that the AEDU model came out of left field, but only if you never bought into the idea that caster supremacy was a problem that needed fixing in the first place.

It's pretty evident from this edition that the latter is the prevailing belief. It's not D&D if there isn't caster supremacy.

# ? Feb 5, 2015 18:40

Four Score: Feb 27, 2014; by zen death robot; Lipstick Apathy

no but you see 4E is like WoW I rest my case your honor

# ? Feb 5, 2015 18:44

Karatela: Sep 11, 2001; Clickzorz!!!; Grimey Drawer

Laphroaig posted:

yeah except the spell Animate Dead that you are referring to doesn't do that.

quote:
This spell creates an undead servant. Choose a pile
of bones or a corpse of a Medium or Small humanoid
within range. Your spell imbues the target with a foul
mimicry of life, raising it as an undead creature. The
target becomes a skeleton if you chose bones or a
zombie if you chose a corpse (the DM has the creature’s
game statistics).

It makes a skeleton as per the Monster Manual and it works on a pile of medium humanoid bones. It doesn't do anything more than that. You'd need to get the DM to agree to let you make a new spell.

I see nothing there preventing a horse skeleton from being raised. :colbert:

Karatela fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Feb 5, 2015

# ? Feb 5, 2015 18:47

Four Score: Feb 27, 2014; by zen death robot; Lipstick Apathy

Moinkmaster posted:

I see nothing there preventing a horse skeleton from being raised.

As the DM I rule in favor of skeletons.

# ? Feb 5, 2015 18:54

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

That's some eats shoots and leaves right there.

What does this sentence mean? DM's call!

# ? Feb 5, 2015 18:55

ActusRhesus: Sep 18, 2007; "Perhaps the fact the defendant had to be dragged out of the courtroom while declaring 'Death to you all, a Jihad on the court' may have had something to do with the revocation of his bond. That or calling the judge a bald-headed cock-sucker. Either way."

Moinkmaster posted:

I see nothing there preventing a horse skeleton from being raised.

I read that the same way...because grammar...you would just need enough bones to make an approximation of a horse...even it it was a horse made out of human femurs. Whatever. it's horse enough.

OOOH! It could have little skulls for hooves.

Yes. Patchwork skeleton horse it is.

# ? Feb 5, 2015 18:56

Kitchner: Nov 9, 2012; IT CAN'T BE BARGAINED WITH.
IT CAN'T BE REASONED WITH.
IT DOESN'T FEEL PITY, OR REMORSE, OR FEAR.
AND IT ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT STOP, EVER, UNTIL YOU ADMIT YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT WARHAMMER; Clapping Larry

Moinkmaster posted:

I see nothing there preventing a horse skeleton from being raised.

That's a good point actually.

Choose:

- A pile of bones

OR

- The corpse of a medium or small humanoid

I ride my skeleton dragon to the inn...

# ? Feb 5, 2015 19:00

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

ActusRhesus posted:

I read that the same way...because grammar...you would just need enough bones to make an approximation of a horse...even it it was a horse made out of human femurs. Whatever. it's horse enough.

OOOH! It could have little skulls for hooves.

Yes. Patchwork skeleton horse it is.

Hehe, hoof-skulls.

And yes, welcome to the Triumph of Natural Language in D&D Next. Please enjoy the hours of endless pointless arguments

# ? Feb 5, 2015 19:00

theironjef: Aug 11, 2009; The archmage of unexpected stinks.

Laphroaig posted:

code:

This spell creates an undead servant. Choose a pile
of bones or a corpse of a Medium or Small humanoid
within range. Your spell imbues the target with a foul
mimicry of life, raising it as an undead creature. The
target becomes a skeleton if you chose bones or a
zombie if you chose a corpse (the DM has the creature�s
game statistics).

According to my interpretation, this spell can also instantly turn gnomes, halflings, and dead fortunetellers into a skeleton with no save.

# ? Feb 5, 2015 19:07

ActusRhesus: Sep 18, 2007; "Perhaps the fact the defendant had to be dragged out of the courtroom while declaring 'Death to you all, a Jihad on the court' may have had something to do with the revocation of his bond. That or calling the judge a bald-headed cock-sucker. Either way."

theironjef posted:

According to my interpretation, this spell can also instantly turn gnomes, halflings, and dead fortunetellers into a skeleton with no save.

nah, you'd need another "humanoid" in there for that interpretation to fly.

"a pile of bones, or the corpse of a medium humanoid, or a small humanoid.

THIS IS WHY THE OXFORD COMMA MATTERS.

# ? Feb 5, 2015 19:16

IT BEGINS: Jan 15, 2009; I don't know how to make analogies

gradenko_2000 posted:

I mean, I guess you could say that the AEDU model came out of left field, but only if you never bought into the idea that caster supremacy was a problem that needed fixing in the first place.

Also if you never used/read Tome of Battle. Maneuvers basically added E/U to 3.5's A/D.

Edit: Choose a [pile of bones] or [a corpse of a Medium] or [Small humanoid within range]. I choose a pile of bones, halfway across the world.

IT BEGINS fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Feb 5, 2015

# ? Feb 5, 2015 19:19

goatface: Dec 5, 2007; I had a video of that when I was about 6.

I remember it being shit.; Grimey Drawer

Send this whole discussion in as something that needs to go in the errata.

Have they decided when/if they're releasing that yet?

# ? Feb 5, 2015 19:26

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

RAW, the "within range" clause only applies to a corpse. So any pile of bones, anywhere may be targeted.

It also doesn't state anywhere that the selected pile or corpse is the target of the spell. So you could just choose a nearby corpse, then target the king and zombify him without a save.

E: better yet, you could choose a bone pile anywhere and turn the king, wherever he is, into a skeleton. The only place range applies is in what corpse you select.

moths fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Feb 5, 2015

# ? Feb 5, 2015 19:27

homullus: Mar 27, 2009

moths posted:

RAW, the "within range" clause only applies to a corpse. So any pile of bones, anywhere may be targeted.

I know it would be really fun if this were true, but prepositional phrases can in fact modify the entire preceding clause, even when they're at the end.

# ? Feb 5, 2015 19:29

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

They can, but not automatically or by default.

# ? Feb 5, 2015 19:31

theironjef: Aug 11, 2009; The archmage of unexpected stinks.

homullus posted:

I know it would be really fun if this were true, but prepositional phrases can in fact modify the entire preceding clause, even when they're at the end.

At the very least the choice between zombie and skeleton doesn't have to have anything to do with your raw materials. You can target bones, say "I choose zombie" and get a zombie, because it just says "If you chose" and not "If your target is".

This is good because the meme is skeletons, not zombies, and who wants to spend a bunch of time flesh-stripping corpses on your way to skeleton superiority.

# ? Feb 5, 2015 19:32

Trast: Oct 20, 2010; Three games, thousands of playthroughs. 90% of the players don't know I exist. Still a redhead saving the galaxy with a [Right Hook].

P.d0t posted:

Congrats! What other editions did you play?

When it comes to pen and paper 5e is the first time playing D&D/table-top games. I've played pc games based on D&D rules like Neverwinter so I had a little bit of an idea of how things go. My brother who's playing with us came at things blind. Luckily my two friends playing with us have experience back to 1e and 2e stuff and beyond.

The DM is pretty engaging and we've run into some tough fights and hilarious situations. I'm not sure how much tweaking he's making to 5e at the moment but I know he made some changes to the beginning of Tyranny of Dragons that everyone else seems to dislike for being plain or boring.

# ? Feb 5, 2015 19:41

Lemniscate Blue: Apr 21, 2006; Here we go again.

goatface posted:

Send this whole discussion in as something that needs to go in the errata.

Have they decided when/if they're releasing that yet?

4e had errata. You don't want what 4e had, do you?

# ? Feb 5, 2015 19:55

Kitchner: Nov 9, 2012; IT CAN'T BE BARGAINED WITH.
IT CAN'T BE REASONED WITH.
IT DOESN'T FEEL PITY, OR REMORSE, OR FEAR.
AND IT ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT STOP, EVER, UNTIL YOU ADMIT YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT WARHAMMER; Clapping Larry

goatface posted:

Send this whole discussion in as something that needs to go in the errata.

Have they decided when/if they're releasing that yet?

Hey guys we got a suggestion e-mail that's literally just a link to a thread on a forum somewhere?

Yeah those guys probably know what they are doing, just do everything they say.

What do you MEAN it's now called Dungeons and Skelephants?

# ? Feb 5, 2015 19:57

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# ? May 13, 2024 23:11

goatface: Dec 5, 2007; I had a video of that when I was about 6.

I remember it being shit.; Grimey Drawer

I think the dungeons part is overrated. Just Skelephants.

# ? Feb 5, 2015 20:05

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