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IronicDongz posted:I wish the plague doctor had something like strong moves that only work on blighted/bleeding enemies. She kiiind of does, the blight DoT stacks (I think?) and the damage against a single target can ramp up pretty high. The problem is that any other class would kill the target before the Plague Doc's dot ramped up. If there were some big HP sponge bosses that took tens of turns to kill, I think the Plague Doc would be strong.
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Feb 5, 2015 20:19
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There are definitely times early on where I stunlocked an enemy or did what Kraken did to heal up really hosed up heroes. I stopped doing it once my town was more stable but early on I found that players could really cheese the system to get out of really bad rng rolls. You don't have to do it but really, why not? You lose nothing and gain a lot by doing it and when a game is advertised as being a balls-to-the-walls hard roguelike it puts you into an all or nothing state. When you do have an opportunity to do it you're probably going to take it because the reward is greater than the risk (which is nil) and games tend to bring that out in players myself included. Honestly, healing in this game is kind of broken from both ends. Early on it kind of sucks but once upgraded it gets insanely powerful. Healing out of combat somehow would do wonders or even making healing in combat temporary and then your health goes back to what it was pre-healing or something, I dunno. I also feel that resting should be possible whenever, wherever but at a great risk. So if you get critted, you could plop down a re-usable tent but would need to spend a lot of resources, like torches and bandages to make sure you make it through the night. That way each environment can have a different effect on a party when they rest. Ruins could have it so that while you sleep the ruins shift and some areas open up while some closes. Or make it so that a character has a nightmare that reveals the map but puts their stress at 100 because of what they saw, etc.
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Feb 5, 2015 20:22
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Just give me more ways that my characters can get hosed up and die. I was expecting to climb over a mountain of bodies and broken souls to get where I'm at, not have 8 dead level 0 adventurers in my graveyard.
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Feb 5, 2015 20:24
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With base knowledge in the thread (always carry 1 torch stack for a short and 2 for a medium/long, along with a full food stack for a short/medium) along with using some of the items correctly (herbs on iron maidens, always bring a shovel and a bandage for looting only, etc), I have had zero death issues by just learning how to play whatever random class combinations I get. How do people have such a hard time? I am by far not an expert at this game because I haven't even gotten any chars to level 2, let alone level 3.
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Feb 5, 2015 20:26
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Yeah, if anything I want so see party members going insane where they never get surprised by enemies because they can see what monsters are seeing and always know where they are and it's driving them to madness but giving you a sick cool buff at the cost of one of your heroes functionality. I would also like to see, if used sparingly, some heroes refusing to enter certain levels. Like one hero had a REALLY bad time in the ruins and never wants to return. notwithoutmyanus posted:With base knowledge in the thread (always carry 1 torch stack for a short and 2 for a medium/long, along with a full food stack for a short/medium) along with using some of the items correctly (herbs on iron maidens, always bring a shovel and a bandage for looting only, etc), I have had zero death issues by just learning how to play whatever random class combinations I get. How do people have such a hard time? I am by far not an expert at this game because I haven't even gotten any chars to level 2, let alone level 3. That's basically it really, once you have a party combo you like it gets easy. If you really want to break things grab a jester and a vestal and start buffing the jesters party buff and the vestals heals.
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Feb 5, 2015 20:28
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You are never going to find armor and weapons in dungeons. They were explicit about this. That's not the kind of loot they're interested in making for the game, and they don't think it fits the theme. Trinkets are what they're doing instead. Honestly, armor/weapon drops would add nothing but another RNG tick to the game and doesn't address any testing or balance issues. The point of not having random dropped weapons/armor is that it would dilutes the class identities. The tradeoffs for bonuses and penalties on trinkets could certainly stand to be messed around with though, as many of the penalties are either easily worked around or irrelevant to begin with. Like, my 0 dodge character doesn't care about -4 dodge. Weapon and Armor upgrades, as well as skill upgrades, certainly need more to differentiate them though - randomly added traits or quirks for upgrading to certain levels or something (probably a bad idea, just throwing an idea out). Upgrade tiers that add secondary effects rather than flat math increases seem like a must. I do think the game needs significantly more quest types though., and hopefully at some point there will be an upgrade for higher level characters to have a larger inventory.
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Feb 5, 2015 20:29
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victrix posted:Well on balance I'd also appreciate them getting rid of bullshit aoe attacks critting on every target at the same time... Be faster so that they cant hit you.
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Feb 5, 2015 20:30
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Funnypost Collabo posted:Just give me more ways that my characters can get hosed up and die. I was expecting to climb over a mountain of bodies and broken souls to get where I'm at, not have 8 dead level 0 adventurers in my graveyard. I'm doing level 3 dungeons at the moment, and my adventurers barely ever get knocked down to Death's door, and I haven't had anyone reach 100 stress in like 20 dungeons. The only character I've lost was to the first hag, and I haven' even gotten close to losing anyone else. The balance is definitely in a weird place right now, but fortunately that's something that can change until release.
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Feb 5, 2015 20:30
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Funnypost Collabo posted:I'm hoping they'll smooth out the very-early-game difficulty issues and add either more challenge or more RNG fuckery to the rest of the game. Inverse difficulty curves are the bane of rpgs everywhere. I hope they'll manage to keep shaking up encounters through the endgame, because too often the way these games work is it's easier at the end than the beginning.
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Feb 5, 2015 20:31
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Broken Cog posted:I'm doing level 3 dungeons at the moment, and my adventurers barely ever get knocked down to Death's door, and I haven't had anyone reach 100 stress in like 20 dungeons. The only character I've lost was to the first hag, and I haven' even gotten close to losing anyone else. The balance is definitely in a weird place right now, but fortunately that's something that can change until release. Yeah, Stress generation could certainly stand to be higher, and not only keyed to specific stress artillery monsters.
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Feb 5, 2015 20:31
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TheBlandName posted:Scouted enemies seem much less likely to surprise you, and if you retreat from a battle you've obviously scouted it. Any way to confirm this? Could be a confounding effect of the torch bonus to surprise.
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Feb 5, 2015 20:32
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victrix posted:Inverse difficulty curves are the bane of rpgs everywhere. This game still can do a "you are completely hosed or pretty close" on just about any encounter. I can see that maintaining through the end, just based on what people say about higher difficulties.
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Feb 5, 2015 20:34
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Wayne June also has done a bunch of HP Lovecraft works, which I found to be really excellent. You can find some of them on youtube, but the whole series is "The Dark Worlds of H.P.Lovecraft", 6 volumes. Here's the link for The Horror at Red Hook. Also the people going on about how they need to stun-delay to heal, the point the other people are making is that you shouldn't get in a position where that becomes a thing you need to do. You made some sort of mistake earlier, either with party composition or how you handled the fights, but the game doesn't require you to do that to excel.
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Feb 5, 2015 20:35
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victrix posted:I find this game far less infuriating than FTL, and much easier Same. I cannot understand how people can complain about this game which always has backup recruits for you and offers retreat options. I'm terrible at roguelikes, loving awful at them, but the difficulty for this one feels just right.. lol at "patch in easy mode," motherfucka you're given infinite chances to do well in this, there's no way it's even close to the bullshit of FTL.
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Feb 5, 2015 20:35
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Any way to confirm this? Could be a confounding effect of the torch bonus to surprise. No, but also no. I generally get a good scout roll and get 3-4 rooms scouted in advance and then clear them all with my torch off for loot. Haven't been surprised on my main save in a couple dungeons. There's really no way I can collect enough data to be sure on my own, though.
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Feb 5, 2015 20:35
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Finished a level 3 dungeon for the first time ever. Nothing bad happened. Having 3 people capable of stuns is so good. What skills does everyone put on their Hellions? I went with the back attack, stun first 2, attack first 3 and the standard attack.
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Feb 5, 2015 20:36
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Also, same typed buffs on your own guys and debuffs on the enemy should not stack. If you have 3 different +ACC buffs you should just get the greatest among them, and the same should be true for any other stat.
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Feb 5, 2015 20:37
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Any way to confirm this? Could be a confounding effect of the torch bonus to surprise. No proof but I've accidentally abused it, I think. Whenever my party order gets rearranged due to getting surprised I'll retreat, re-order my party and almost everytime I go back to fight I seem to surprise enemies.
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Feb 5, 2015 20:38
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How likely is retreat success? I've tried it 5 times now and every time I failed. Am I missing yet another mechanic?
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Feb 5, 2015 20:46
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My new favorite party is a Vestal and 3 Grave Diggers, playing with no torches. All three Grave Diggers take Lunge/Shadow Fade/Flashing Daggers/Pick to the Face They can attack from any position and hit any position except the far back. Grave Robbers are definitely the best class for dealing with low light (and actually become stronger in low light due to getting insane crit chances) so with this party you can ignore torches and light effects and actually have an easier time. I just leveled this group from 0-3 and it was strong even at level 0, as long as you can find three Grave Diggers and unlock the above four skills on them, you can do this. It only got easier in level 3 dungeons and I imagine the same will be true at level 5. It's very easy to play, too, your Grave Diggers have a simple priority: Lunge > Pick to the Face (if it will likely result in a kill this turn) > Flashing Daggers (If it will hit 2 targets) > Shadow Fade > Pick to the Face > Flashing Daggers (one target) e: Also I think Grave Diggers have a hidden surprise bonus, because I was surprising enemy groups even at 0 light. On second thought, I'm not too sure about Shadow Fade, I'm switching it out for Toxin Trickery. deep dish peat moss fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Feb 5, 2015 |
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Feb 5, 2015 20:49
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Funnypost Collabo posted:I'm not a big fan of any part of the item/equipment system, either. Armor and Weapons are just generic +1s that you buy in town which diminishes the characters' ability to be unique and separate from one another. Armor and Weapons aren't loot the way you're used to thinking they are in RPGs. That isn't inherently bad though. In other RPGs you magically get more stats when you level up. In Darkest Dungeon those stats happen instead when you spend the money to upgrade their armor and weapons, with level as a gating / prerequisite mechanism. It works just fine and doesn't "diminish the characters' ability to be unique". Relics are the dropped loot of this game, and that's fine. Relics can do all kinds of things. I can understand if you feel most of them are two-edged to the point of being underwhelming, but that doesn't mean that armor and weapons being +1 means there's no class or less class differentiation. Relics can be class-specific. There's your class' unique equipment. MinibarMatchman posted:Same. I cannot understand how people can complain about this game which always has backup recruits for you and offers retreat options. I'm terrible at roguelikes, loving awful at them, but the difficulty for this one feels just right.. lol at "patch in easy mode," motherfucka you're given infinite chances to do well in this, there's no way it's even close to the bullshit of FTL. Agreed.
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Feb 5, 2015 20:51
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ZypherIM posted:Also the people going on about how they need to stun-delay to heal, the point the other people are making is that you shouldn't get in a position where that becomes a thing you need to do. You made some sort of mistake earlier, either with party composition or how you handled the fights, but the game doesn't require you to do that to excel. And I think these people have a really distorted view of this game based on how much easier it gets later on. When you're just starting out, its very easy for the RNG to go crazy and get into a really bad situation. You have less control over fights due to poor party comp, no upgrade, etc. This also the only point in the game where you can really lock yourself into a failure state since you need money to do dungeons but lose money if you back out. Basically, the player has no way to deal with someone getting blown down to critical HP through bad luck in a short mission early on. Can't heal outside of combat, can't camp because its too small, can't back out because your budget is too tight.
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Feb 5, 2015 20:52
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FrickenMoron posted:Finished a level 3 dungeon for the first time ever. Nothing bad happened. Having 3 people capable of stuns is so good. What skills does everyone put on their Hellions? I went with the back attack, stun first 2, attack first 3 and the standard attack. Those are the really good mandatory skills. The "that which bleeds" skill is pretty good too, as is the self-buff and bleed heal, especially if you're rocking an occultist in your group for healing. Spending a turn to heal or buff hurts, but doing both at once ain't bad at all. S.J. posted:Also, same typed buffs on your own guys and debuffs on the enemy should not stack. If you have 3 different +ACC buffs you should just get the greatest among them, and the same should be true for any other stat. I can see why you'd say that, but that would also render lots of abilities like the Jester's song pretty useless in lots of cases. Internet Kraken posted:And I think these people have a really distorted view of this game based on how much easier it gets later on. When you're just starting out, its very easy for the RNG to go crazy and get into a really bad situation. You have less control over fights due to poor party comp, no upgrade, etc. This also the only point in the game where you can really lock yourself into a failure state since you need money to do dungeons but lose money if you back out. Basically, the player has no way to deal with someone getting blown down to critical HP through bad luck in a short mission early on. Can't heal outside of combat, can't camp because its too small, can't back out because your budget is too tight. Yeah I think that's accurate. I wonder if you could buy firewood for a large cost if that could maybe help things. Too many campfires would help a ton and make the game too easy, but a single campfire isn't a huge difference, you only get so much time to heal, buff, or cure stress. You can't really do all 3. Giving new players some firewood in small dungeons could help them get over feeling like they really need constant heals, just push for as far as you can, then camp, then push again. But then again new players are hurting for cash while older players have lots to spare, so that's really hard to balance. Hrm. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Feb 5, 2015 |
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Feb 5, 2015 20:53
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I wasn't posted on that big list of lootables, but bandages will also work on beast carcasses to prevent catching disease.
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Feb 5, 2015 20:56
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Zaphod42 posted:I can see why you'd say that, but that would also render lots of abilities like the Jester's song pretty useless in lots of cases. Nah, those abilities just need to be able to be used from the back 2 rows instead of only the back so that they can choose whether or not to buff or attack on any given turn. Sure, you might want to retool the numbers, but either you retool certain numbers up as per my scenario, or you need to retool a bunch of numbers down if the system stays as it is. Certain buffs are far too easy to stack, and also makes certain camping skills a complete no brainer rather than a real decision to be weighed vs the camping time you have. My suggestion introduces actual choices to your turn by turn decision making rather than simply doing chain buffing or chain de-stressing. Buff duration is also a factor here, both in and out of combat.
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Feb 5, 2015 21:04
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Waffle! posted:I wasn't posted on that big list of lootables, but bandages will also work on beast carcasses to prevent catching disease. I should add that to the OP... E: Done! If anybody finds out new information let me know and I'll update the list. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Feb 5, 2015 |
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Feb 5, 2015 21:09
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Baronjutter posted:How likely is retreat success? I've tried it 5 times now and every time I failed. Am I missing yet another mechanic? It's pretty likely until you have afflicted characters in your party. But when you really need to retreat (after getting surprised and shuffled and then the enemies all attack first) you'll probably have 4 chances to bail before the attacks start coming in again. And losing a couple guys until the retreat works is all right in the beginning (and still more likely to succeed than fighting from a bad start). Although you should be retreating or camping before afflictions are a serious risk if your party is actually valuable (thousands of gold invested in every member, irreplaceable trinkets).
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Feb 5, 2015 21:11
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Internet Kraken posted:And I think these people have a really distorted view of this game based on how much easier it gets later on. When you're just starting out, its very easy for the RNG to go crazy and get into a really bad situation. You have less control over fights due to poor party comp, no upgrade, etc. This also the only point in the game where you can really lock yourself into a failure state since you need money to do dungeons but lose money if you back out. Basically, the player has no way to deal with someone getting blown down to critical HP through bad luck in a short mission early on. Can't heal outside of combat, can't camp because its too small, can't back out because your budget is too tight.
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Feb 5, 2015 21:15
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Baronjutter posted:How likely is retreat success? I've tried it 5 times now and every time I failed. Am I missing yet another mechanic? Certain quirks will make it so you can't retreat, I'm pretty sure. I had a Crusader who just would never let me retreat with any party that he was a member in, even if he wasn't the one I was asking to retreat. Check their quirks and take them to the sanitarium?  Or maybe it was something else.Internet Kraken posted:And I think these people have a really distorted view of this game based on how much easier it gets later on. When you're just starting out, its very easy for the RNG to go crazy and get into a really bad situation. You have less control over fights due to poor party comp, no upgrade, etc. This also the only point in the game where you can really lock yourself into a failure state since you need money to do dungeons but lose money if you back out. Basically, the player has no way to deal with someone getting blown down to critical HP through bad luck in a short mission early on. Can't heal outside of combat, can't camp because its too small, can't back out because your budget is too tight. You're misunderstanding. You can take 4 fresh recruits and send them into a dungeon with no torches or food or anything. That costs you literally 0 gold. If they manage to kill anything, loot anything, that's pure profit. Then you can run away and take that profit. You can farm infinite gold this way at zero cost if you really wanted to loving grind it out. Then once you've got some gold you can start afford to buy lots of supplies. But sometimes a fresh group of level 0 recruits with no supplies can still finish a quest, if you play tactically its entirely possible. And that makes you a huge profit.
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Feb 5, 2015 21:16
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Well I was about to rage-shelve this game until mods or a trainer or something came out to make it easier or more "fair" but I guess I'll keep slugging away at that starting dungeon, eventually with enough throw-away level 0's I may finally pass it. I noticed that after enough attempts I get locked out of the "ruins" dungeon and have 2 much harder dungeons available. If I throw people at them, after they all die the "ruins" dungeon is available again. How come you randomly get locked out? Just to prevent constant re-tries?
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Feb 5, 2015 21:26
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Internet Kraken posted:And I think these people have a really distorted view of this game based on how much easier it gets later on. When you're just starting out, its very easy for the RNG to go crazy and get into a really bad situation. You have less control over fights due to poor party comp, no upgrade, etc. This also the only point in the game where you can really lock yourself into a failure state since you need money to do dungeons but lose money if you back out. Basically, the player has no way to deal with someone getting blown down to critical HP through bad luck in a short mission early on. Can't heal outside of combat, can't camp because its too small, can't back out because your budget is too tight. When I was writing my guide I deliberately started several new games just to make sure I wasn't making this mistake. I wasn't. And you can still run into a zero-cash failure state later on because blacksmith etc. never stop being expensive; I've got a stableful of high end characters now and I still can't afford to buy trinkets at the wagon. But you can always do a suicide run with disposables for cash. Hell, sometimes your disposables succeed so well they turn into good characters. Baronjutter posted:Well I was about to rage-shelve this game until mods or a trainer or something came out to make it easier or more "fair" but I guess I'll keep slugging away at that starting dungeon, eventually with enough throw-away level 0's I may finally pass it. I'd also suggest you re-read the tactics section of my guide and actually do what it suggests. Use stuns, use push/pull attacks, prioritize attacking the back row. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Feb 5, 2015 |
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Feb 5, 2015 21:27
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The Plague Doctor's battlefield medicine skill needs a buff, I think. Either it needs to never fail, or it should heal based on how bad the bleed/blight was that it removed. Every other skill I can think of that removes bleed/blight has a secondary effect attached to it, so the Plague Doctor's is really weak, especially since it can fail. Seconding what people are saying about hunger - I got hit with it three times in a row, with one hallway between each hunger event. It really should be more predictable - I kind of like not knowing the turn order in combat because it makes the battles feel sort of chaotic, but it's not like you can't anticipate when you're going to be hungry. Ideally it would be modified by your behavior in a way, like if you have to clear debris by hand it moves the next hunger event up, and if you feast at camp it pushes it back, etc.
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Feb 5, 2015 21:36
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This is what I like to see  
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Feb 5, 2015 21:36
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All this hate on plague doctor and I think Ruzihm fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Feb 5, 2015 |
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Feb 5, 2015 21:40
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grrarg posted:Except you do not need money to do dungeons. Grab four fresh redshirts from the wagon and send them in with no supplies or just a few food. Anything they loot is pure profit. Leave when it looks like they will not survive another fight. You will be surprised how far a party can get with no torches, and low light levels increase the amount of loot. Do not worry about stress since you can fire and replace them at no cost. Yeah I basically tried that. However its much easier to just start a new game than try to slog through the early dungeons with a bunch of idiots that suck and can still be ruined by RNG. I mean its fun at first but I got sick of making basically zero progress which is what prompted me to restart. I guess its my fault for trying to play this game without spoilers so I made a bunch of big mistakes due to a lack of mechanic understanding. I don't like to spoil myself on games, but on reflection playing an early access game riddled with balance issues blind is pretty stupid. EDIT: I just had an occultist say "let me by, I'm famished!" and proceed to eat out of the item we just stumbled upon. It was a cart full of corpses 
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Feb 5, 2015 21:44
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Zaphod42 posted:You're misunderstanding. You can take 4 fresh recruits and send them into a dungeon with no torches or food or anything. That costs you literally 0 gold. If they manage to kill anything, loot anything, that's pure profit. Then you can run away and take that profit. You can farm infinite gold this way at zero cost if you really wanted to loving grind it out. Then once you've got some gold you can start afford to buy lots of supplies. But sometimes a fresh group of level 0 recruits with no supplies can still finish a quest, if you play tactically its entirely possible. And that makes you a huge profit. 
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Feb 5, 2015 21:45
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:When I was writing my guide I deliberately started several new games just to make sure I wasn't making this mistake. I wasn't. Do that like crazy. Try to keep everyone in the back stunned with the blinding flash and front guys stunned with the crusader while the highwayman jabs away at everyone and the crusader accuses people. Following poo poo 100%. I can clear like 3-4 fights taking very little damage and my healer always doing group heals to keep everyone topped up. It's rarely a slow war of attrition. It will be a surprise attack and a bunch of enemy crits taking my near full health dudes down to half in a single turn, then a spiral of stress leading to people refusing to be healed. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Feb 5, 2015 |
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Feb 5, 2015 21:50
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Internet Kraken posted:Yeah I basically tried that. However its much easier to just start a new game than try to slog through the early dungeons with a bunch of idiots that suck and can still be ruined by RNG. I mean its fun at first but I got sick of making basically zero progress which is what prompted me to restart. Eh, there really aren't that many balance issues, apart from a few quibbles with some classes. The real issue is that the game punishes mistakes and does not always warn you that you are making a mistake. Almost all modern games do a lot of handholding and spell everything out very clearly. This one doesn't. If your torch drops to zero you're probably hosed, for example, but it's not going to pop up a little warning every time your torch drops 10%: it's just going to have some monsters stomp all over you, and that's going to keep happening until you figure out that you need to keep your torch over 75%. And that's just one major mistake; if you make others, like bad party composition (no healers, all lepers, etc.) or bad tactics (ignoring the enemy back row) you'll get hosed for those, too. And then sometimes it does gently caress you just because gently caress YOU, like giving your best guys negative traits after a perfect run, or SURPRISE->critical->bleed->dead! in one round. But the game gives you the means to recover even in those situations. Baronjutter posted:Do that like crazy. Try to keep everyone in the back stunned with the blinding flash and front guys stunned with the crusader while the highwayman jabs away at everyone and the crusader accuses people. Following poo poo 100% Ok, good luck! And seriously if it doesn't work for you report back, I want to know if I'm giving bad advice. Baronjutter posted:It's rarely a slow war of attrition. It will be a surprise attack and a bunch of enemy crits taking my near full health dudes down to half in a single turn, then a spiral of stress leading to people refusing to be healed. Ok, yeah, that's the tough part in the early game. You might want to consider getting the Crusader's Stress Heal skill, or maybe even taking along a Jester for his stress heal song if one drops from the wagon. Then try the stun-locking thing for a bit on that final enemy and take the opportunity for the crusader to top off those with the worst stress. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Feb 5, 2015 |
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Feb 5, 2015 21:51
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ZypherIM posted:..the point the other people are making is that you shouldn't get in a position where stunhealing becomes a thing you need to do. You made some sort of mistake earlier, either with party composition or how you handled the fights, but the game doesn't require you to do that to excel. Suicide farming is just as much an exploit but you don't see any arguments over it Jackard fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Feb 5, 2015 |
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Feb 5, 2015 21:55
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Jackard posted:Those people can take their point and stuff it I don't have a problem with stun-healing, I see it as your heroes getting their licks in. They're sadistic little bastards is all. It's like throwing a monster a blanket party. I do think that after about round 5-10 there should be an increasing chance that other new monsters hear the noise and join the fun.
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Feb 5, 2015 22:00
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