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Shinku ABOOKEN posted:do people even need qualifications to get into school mgmt? those who cant, teach whose who cant teach, administrate*
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Feb 5, 2015 23:29
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:tell it to the FAA.  is the ALPA predates the FAA
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Feb 5, 2015 23:29
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Shinku ABOOKEN posted:do people even need qualifications to get into school mgmt? yes. although i'm pretty sure the qualification is "show that you have had education/training in school management". this does not necessarily indicate the quality of that training. also probably how well you can suck up to the district superintendent.
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Feb 5, 2015 23:34
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:i'm like, inviting a fishmeching here not just via technology, but by improvements in teaching style, methodology, and organization. computer science is not the only kind of science that has advanced since the 70s a gp's office with two examination rooms and a waiting room that holds ten people can't take advantage of technology that lets two people effectively take care of twenty people at once, and gps don't do much actual care (which is the part that's most able to be automated away) anyway so they make a pretty lovely metric - most cases where automation would be able to help are sent off to specialists or hospitals who actually have the infrastructure and equipment necessary to carry out that automation. Sagebrush posted:"how much teaching can be packed into a given amount of time"? seriously? sorry, i meant "how much effective teaching can be packed into a given amount of time". the right changes to the curriculum and to teaching styles can lead to improved retention and understanding of information among the students, which improves outcomes overall and also allows you to advance the curriculum faster since you're less reliant on repetition and rote memorization unfortunately teachers are caught between administrators and politicians, both of whom are intent on eliminating skilled teachers and reducing training to bare minimum, literally destroying the teaching culture in their schools so that new teachers have nowhere to turn for advice on how to teach more effectively. and even when actual good teaching style changes are proposed that would legitimately improve the teachers' teaching abilities, they go nowhere, because the administration devotes maybe half a day to "training" them on it, and because the educational system is so toxic that teachers are (with good reason) suspicious of any new initiative pushed on them by the administration or the politicians
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Feb 5, 2015 23:48
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lol
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Feb 5, 2015 23:51
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Main Paineframe posted:unfortunately teachers are caught between administrators and politicians, both of whom are intent on eliminating skilled teachers and reducing training to bare minimum, literally destroying the teaching culture in their schools so that new teachers have nowhere to turn for advice on how to teach more effectively. i would be surprised if there weren't at least some education "reformers" who consider this a feature and not a bug "no, this is good, because it makes it easier for us to root out bad habits!  "
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Feb 5, 2015 23:52
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Feb 5, 2015 23:53
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:i would be surprised if there weren't at least some education "reformers" who consider this a feature and not a bug To the traditional southern baptist style "education reformer," a teacher is how dangerous ideas enter children. anything you can do to hobble teachers and set them up to fail is a bonus in their eyes.
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Feb 5, 2015 23:54
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I wonder how much this phenomenon hit relative_q  we were all under the impression he had his aneurysm in the best possible situation (at work in a hospital)
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Feb 5, 2015 23:56
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Jonny 290 posted:I wonder how much this phenomenon hit relative_q I remember the lead-up to his situation and in hindsight it's pretty obvious what was happening and it's weird no one noticed it. (I don't think he worked at a hospital? didn't he work at their headquarters? the company he worked for is my company's arch-enemy)
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Feb 6, 2015 00:08
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Main Paineframe posted:sorry, i meant "how much effective teaching can be packed into a given amount of time". the right changes to the curriculum and to teaching styles can lead to improved retention and understanding of information among the students, which improves outcomes overall and also allows you to advance the curriculum faster since you're less reliant on repetition and rote memorization lol if you think teachers are sitting here going "drat! if only there were some other way to teach than rote memorization and repetition!" this isn't the loving 1840s students learn at a given rate. some kids pick things up faster than others, some learn better via different strategies, but a good teacher is already trying to work several of those methods into their pedagogy simultaneously. eventually you reach a point where you realize that no matter how much you dance on the tables or take the kids to listen to slam poetry in a grungy bar or Bring The Material To Life, you just have to slow down and let the information be absorbed and reinforced, and that takes time. there is no substitute. like i teach one class that may be offered either as an intensive five week summer class or a more drawn out fifteen week regular semester course. both ways i cover the same content and both ways it's 90 instructional hours. guess which one produces better outcomes? Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Feb 6, 2015 |
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Feb 6, 2015 00:33
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are you saying that the learning rate of a given student is fixed, and can't be improved with changes to tools or techniques? that's a pretty fatalist stance
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Feb 6, 2015 00:35
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Subjunctive posted:are you saying that the learning rate of a given student is fixed, and can't be improved with changes to tools or techniques? that's a pretty fatalist stance it's possible learning rates for a given student are fixed (for a given subject, etc) but learning rates for the student population are definitely not fixed that's why advanced classes exist in the first place
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Feb 6, 2015 00:38
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Sagebrush posted:lol if you think teachers are sitting here going "drat! if only there were some other way to teach than rote memorization and repetition!" this isn't the loving 1840s the problem is that the system actively sabotages, forces out, and crushes those good teachers and replaces them with inexperienced twenty-somethings who've never taught a real class before, don't know those various methods of teaching, are under intense pressure from above to teach to the test and nothing else, and will probably burn out halfway through the year more effective teaching styles have been developed but the overall educational system is a shitpile that intentionally ruins teaching quality for profit
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Feb 6, 2015 00:40
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no, i don't believe it's fixed, but i also don't believe it's unbounded. do you think you'd find it easier to learn, say, a foreign language, by studying for 30 minutes a day for a year, or 8 hours a day for a month? hint: there is research on this and one answer is objectively correct and this is discounting that people also have lives beyond their education. you can try and cram people full of knowledge nonstop, but it's not super helpful if they have no time to practice and reinforce it because it's straight from school to work to bed and back to school.
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Feb 6, 2015 00:41
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tbh education really is a bad place to focus on efficiency gains right now because the best avenue of improvement is clearly a matter of throwing (qualified) bodies at it like, imagine if you were trying to build a building, but only had one guy to do it; you're not going to develop technology to help that guy out, you're going to hire more workers and then maybe later you'll develop technology so you don't need half of them
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Feb 6, 2015 00:43
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Main Paineframe posted:the problem is that the system actively sabotages, forces out, and crushes those good teachers and replaces them with inexperienced twenty-somethings who've never taught a real class before, don't know those various methods of teaching, are under intense pressure from above to teach to the test and nothing else, and will probably burn out halfway through the year well this is inarguable but it's not the same as "teachers could teach faster if we disrupted them with technology", which is sure what it sounded lik eyou were saying before i mean what makes you think that educational technology wouldn't just be used to serve the same ends as the current "shitpile that intentionally ruins teaching quality for profit"
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Feb 6, 2015 00:45
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Citizen Tayne posted:To the traditional southern baptist style "education reformer," a teacher is how dangerous ideas enter children. anything you can do to hobble teachers and set them up to fail is a bonus in their eyes. oh and this is from a few pages back, but reminder that one republican politician (can't source the quote right now) accused US universities of being "al-qaeda training camps"
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Feb 6, 2015 00:46
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Sagebrush posted:and this is discounting that people also have lives beyond their education. you can try and cram people full of knowledge nonstop, but it's not super helpful if they have no time to practice and reinforce it because it's straight from school to work to bed and back to school. you keep going back to this "more exposition" strawman as though anyone is saying that talking more quickly will get an improved outcome. as you say, using the new knowledge or skill reinforces, but that's often starved out in the classroom by more lecture time. then homework has the practice happening in an unguided environment where asking for help is a crap shoot. teachers are (hopefully) experts at guiding students through learning more than being a domain expert. a change in balance between imparting facts and practically reinforcing the lesson could increase a student's learning rate, perhaps, but wouldn't involve turning the teacher into an auctioneer as you keep suggesting.
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Feb 6, 2015 00:51
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computer parts posted:it's possible learning rates for a given student are fixed (for a given subject, etc) but learning rates for the student population are definitely not fixed maybe i'm misunderstanding but it sounds like you're saying two different things. advanced classes exist for the students who naturally* learn faster than others. but the population rate i would guess is pretty much static because you always have such a wide variety of different performers. if there were some technology that could make a shift across the entire student demographic and increase the population learning rate, that'd be awesome, but has anyone come up with anything that demonstrates that, well, ever? is there even research on this that predates say computers? "education" is such a slippery thing to try and quantify anyway * "naturally" here meaning a combination of their affinity for a specific subject, the suitability of their home and living situation to being a student, the emphasis placed on education by their family and peers, their receptivity to the learning style promoted by the professor, etc etc etc etc.
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Feb 6, 2015 00:52
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Subjunctive posted:you keep going back to this "more exposition" strawman as though anyone is saying that talking more quickly will get an improved outcome. as you say, using the new knowledge or skill reinforces, but that's often starved out in the classroom by more lecture time. then homework has the practice happening in an unguided environment where asking for help is a crap shoot. teachers are (hopefully) experts at guiding students through learning more than being a domain expert. a change in balance between imparting facts and practically reinforcing the lesson could increase a student's learning rate, perhaps, but wouldn't involve turning the teacher into an auctioneer as you keep suggesting. it's not a strawman -- main paineframe literally said Main Paineframe posted:(how much teaching can be packed into a given amount of time) so you need to either talk faster or cut something out. every (good) teacher strives to balance imparting facts and reinforcing the lesson. classes are scheduled and semesters are arranged according to decades of experience trying to find that point. more lecturing, not enough time to ensure everyone gets it before we're on to something else. more reinforcement and in-class exercises, run out of time to cover all the topics (and more importantly, to give all the topics that amount of reinforcement). this is why i'm extremely wary of anything that says you can improve education by measuring any part of it as $metric per-unit-of-time.
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Feb 6, 2015 00:59
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:i used to be one of those frothing anti-union quantitative measurement people, hoping charter schools would deliver us all. then real numbers started to come in, and it turns out that all those wishy-washy public employees who resented teaching to the test were actually right. empirical evidence suggests none of this poo poo has ever worked. neighboring county's school district has some of the worst graduation rates in the country because a 'virtual charter school' is dragging its numbers down so hard quote:Among the district’s concerns with Insight are its poor performance on state tests and its low graduation rate. In 2012-13, Insight’s first year, it had a graduation rate of 10.4 percent, compared to 68.7 percent statewide. loving  so hopefully these goons are gonna get defunded real soon
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Feb 6, 2015 01:04
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Sagebrush posted:maybe i'm misunderstanding but it sounds like you're saying two different things. advanced classes exist for the students who naturally* learn faster than others. but the population rate i would guess is pretty much static because you always have such a wide variety of different performers. if there were some technology that could make a shift across the entire student demographic and increase the population learning rate, that'd be awesome, but has anyone come up with anything that demonstrates that, well, ever? is there even research on this that predates say computers? "education" is such a slippery thing to try and quantify anyway if advanced classes didn't exist then the kids who can learn faster wouldn't necessarily learn faster like, say it takes two weeks to cover topic 1 in a regular class, and 1 week for an advanced class (and all of the students of the respective classes can handle the workload, etc). if the advanced students are in the regular class, they'll spend one week learning the material and the other week not doing anything because they're constrained by the structure of the class on the other end of the spectrum if remedial classes didn't exist then those students probably wouldn't learn as much as they could either, because they're going too fast (this is too often a thing, sadly) computer parts fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Feb 6, 2015 |
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Feb 6, 2015 01:07
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"more teaching/learning in a given time" is not the same as "more facts conveyed in a given time". the facility with the learned material matters too. I'm surprised that you're making the equivalence! non-teaching: Twitter is preventing most employees from seeing their active-user numbers, presumably because the numbers are so amazing they could blind someone. http://recode.net/2015/02/05/twitter-cuts-off-employee-access-to-its-metrics/
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Feb 6, 2015 01:10
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Subjunctive posted:"more teaching/learning in a given time" is not the same as "more facts conveyed in a given time". the facility with the learned material matters too. I'm surprised that you're making the equivalence! true. which is better: 100% of the required material with 50% facility, or 50% of the required material with 100% facility?
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Feb 6, 2015 01:13
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there's a paper from OISE I think about how facility impacts learning of related material. basically comparing the simple choice you describe. IIRC focus on increasing facility got students to the final mastery of material goals much faster. the theory was that mastery gains improved efficiency of taking in additional material, while having too much unmastered material impeded development of mastery. I literally remember nothing else except that it existed in 2007: I was doing research on education when my wife was pregnant.
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Feb 6, 2015 01:19
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Jonny 290 posted:I wonder how much this phenomenon hit relative_q waaaaiiit i was out of the yospos loop for a while, what happened
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Feb 6, 2015 01:34
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daft punk railroad posted:waaaaiiit i was out of the yospos loop for a while, what happened you died. you can stop posting now.
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Feb 6, 2015 01:38
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Sagebrush posted:well this is inarguable but it's not the same as "teachers could teach faster if we disrupted them with technology", which is sure what it sounded lik eyou were saying before that was my point though - that the reason there hasn't been any noticeable innovation leading to quality or productivity increases in education isn't because education can't be innovated, it's because the educational system is so thoroughly hosed that any attempt at progress is strangled before it can take its first breath obviously we're not going to be teaching kids a full k-12 curriculum in three days or anything like that, but there is definitely some room for improvement, otherwise colleges wouldn't have to send increasing numbers of freshmen to remedial classes because they don't have sufficient mastery of high school math and reading. i'm not saying teachers are bad, i'm saying the educational system is fundamentally broken and as a result, the american teaching style has stalled out into decades-old traditions that most other countries already know don't work anymore
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Feb 6, 2015 01:38
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in start truck people were learning calculus at 6! why can't obummer do that? I'm voting republican because common core
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Feb 6, 2015 01:46
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Main Paineframe posted:that was my point though - that the reason there hasn't been any noticeable innovation leading to quality or productivity increases in education isn't because education can't be innovated, it's because the educational system is so thoroughly hosed that any attempt at progress is strangled before it can take its first breath i imagine at least part of the increase in remedial course enrollment is thanks to universities recent gains in efficiency. efficiently bleeding kids and their parents finances!!!!!!!
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Feb 6, 2015 01:52
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yeah if colleges can make everybody pay a 5th year of tuition because the 1st year is 'mandatory remedial studies' then they'd do that in a heart beat
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Feb 6, 2015 01:53
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just had a student earlier today who wanted to be a TA he can't be a TA without signing up for the TA course, which is 3 units he has 5 units and is considered a part time student, but if he goes above 6 then he's considered full time and has to pay full time tuition so, the discussion was "why do i have to pay an extra $1000 to work for the university?" i was unable to answer this question
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Feb 6, 2015 02:02
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twitter's failing relationship with metrics, cont:http://www.businessinsider.com/how-ios-8-cost-twitter-4-million-users-2015-2 posted:But Twitter explained to us that 3 million people disappeared because of a change in the Shared Links section of the Safari browser on iOS 8.
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Feb 6, 2015 02:21
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Sagebrush posted:just had a student earlier today who wanted to be a TA boohoo i don't want to pay for stuff! give me more hand outs!
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Feb 6, 2015 02:21
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Sagebrush posted:just had a student earlier today who wanted to be a TA did you tell him a story about a tribe in africa instead
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Feb 6, 2015 02:30
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i think there are some problems with expecting the teachers to also function as behavioral coaches, which takes up classtime and does reduce efficiency. lots of students at low scoring schools have non-academic problems to deal with.
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Feb 6, 2015 02:36
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guys, guys, it turns out uber drivers can clear a quarter million: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonyoushaei/2015/02/04/the-uberpreneur-how-an-uber-driver-makes-252000-a-year/ a) it's the wife's jewelry shop the thread brought up earlier b) can uber crack down without violating 1099 rules??
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Feb 6, 2015 02:41
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it's not exactly on-topic, but the image reminded me anyway i have a friend who had a stroke in his late 20s. his wife called an ambulance and got him to the hospital. she said it looks like a stroke repeatedly. when he was brought to the hospital the doctors wasted literally hours chasing other bullshit like "oh well he looks like a druggie, probs just a drug overdose" before finally concluding "okay yeah he's suffered a stroke" like god drat i can't even imagine the rage his wife must feel every time some ad comes up on the radio or tv saying "seconds count here's how you recognize a stroke! "
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Feb 6, 2015 03:13
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i don't understand why doctors are the only profession where long shifts without sleep are the norm and even required? like, truck drivers aren't allowed to be behind the wheel for that long without taking a rest yet if they do crash the person performing the life saving surgery has been awake for twice as long . i just have no idea why its completely unacceptable to work 12 hours straight except the one that saves lives. and surely it was the medical industry that pioneered the idea that lack of sleep causes more harm to your mind than being drunk yet they ignore it themselves? and everyone's cool with it?. its hosed up.
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Feb 6, 2015 03:54
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