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V. Illych L. posted:idgi Your vote matters. Vote early, vote often, and vote correctly (straight D).
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Feb 7, 2015 14:30
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V. Illych L. posted:Well, yeah, sure, and then they as a group might influence the election. Individual votes still don't matter for poo poo, though. And every group is made up of a bunch of individuals. The whole "well my one vote doesn't count, who cares" thing is part of why the young tend to not vote and is part of the problem. It might not feel like one lever pull means much but do remember that that whole "well this person got 20,000,000 votes" thing means that 20,000,000 individuals voted that way. It really, really does matter.
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Feb 7, 2015 14:31
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^^^^This is a very American and IMO rather naïve sentiment. I've already covered why no individual vote is going to make a difference - do you disagree with my account of the "one-vote difference" hypothetical? An election is necessarily a collective project, and if you want to get anywhere you have to act collectively, for example by starting and sustaining cultural trends, by doing electoral work, etc. If your sole political contribution is voting, you can vote whatever the hell you want and there is no vaguely realistic scenario in which that will have consequences. Young people who don't vote aren't *wrong*, you know.gradenko_2000 posted:If you tell a couple hundred people that their vote doesn't matter, does not that in itself "conceivably [help] in some way"? Sure, if I manage to start a cultural trend against tactical voting, even if it's small-scale, it might in some extreme fringe cases have an impact. This is not what I'm talking about here, I'm talking about an individual vote from someone who likely isn't in the business of doing electoral stuff. Like I said, if you want to do something that might actually influence the outcome of an election (improbable as it is), you have to act on the collective. This is, for some reason, a difficult notion for some people. My Imaginary GF posted:Your vote matters. Vote early, vote often, and vote correctly (straight D). "D" in my country is "Demokratene", a fringe group that was too radical for our anti-immigrationist right-populists, so uh V. Illych L. fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Feb 7, 2015 |
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Feb 7, 2015 14:33
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V. Illych L. posted:^^^^This is a very American and IMO rather naïve sentiment. I've already covered why no individual vote is going to make a difference - do you disagree with my account of the "one-vote difference" hypothetical? An election is necessarily a collective project, and if you want to get anywhere you have to act collectively, for example by starting and sustaining cultural trends, by doing electoral work, etc. If your sole political contribution is voting, you can vote whatever the hell you want and there is no vaguely realistic scenario in which that will have consequences. Young people who don't vote aren't *wrong*, you know. Ah, I see your problem.You haven't become an American yet. Its alright, there's still time for you to correct your ways and acquire citizenship so that your vote will matter.
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Feb 7, 2015 14:42
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I once voted in an election for sheriff that broke exactly even. They flipped a coin to determine the winner. The sheriff was later assassinated by his political rivals. Votes matter.
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Feb 7, 2015 16:34
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My Imaginary GF posted:Your vote matters. Vote early, vote often, and vote correctly (in Republican primaries).
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Feb 7, 2015 16:37
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:I once voted in an election for sheriff that broke exactly even. They flipped a coin to determine the winner. Indirectly, you shot the sherriff. But I bet nobody shot his deputy.
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Feb 7, 2015 16:46
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Believing that your vote is the only one that should have to matter is a pretty selfish way of thinking about it. Of course your singular vote doesn't matter, that's the whole point of a democratic society. The purpose of voting is to determine majority and minority opinions, and to measure support for those ideals. If they win, great, but if not, that vote is still a permanent mark that whatever ideals a particular party has possess some measure of support, for better or for worse. I don't begrudge people for voting for (Actual) third parties, but I do feel that not voting at all is probably the worst thing you can do, and is the reason why the whole "Your vote doesn't matter" narrative needs to be dispelled.
Acebuckeye13 fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Feb 7, 2015 |
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Feb 7, 2015 16:50
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V. Illych L. posted:^^^^This is a very American and IMO rather naïve sentiment. Bullshit. The final margin in Florida in 2000 was less than the total of votes a joke Yogi Candidate got. Individual votes seldom matter, but groups of individuals do. Every individual who thanks their voter doesn't matter just skews the election more in favor of the likely voters.
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Feb 7, 2015 16:53
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:I once voted in an election for sheriff that broke exactly even. They flipped a coin to determine the winner. MIGF parachute account spotted.
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Feb 7, 2015 17:00
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:I once voted in an election for sheriff that broke exactly even. They flipped a coin to determine the winner. I remember this story. Wasn't it in Pulaski County?
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Feb 7, 2015 17:06
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Believing that your vote is the only one that should have to matter is a pretty selfish way of thinking about it. Of course your singular vote doesn't matter, that's the whole point of a democratic society. The purpose of voting is to determine majority and minority opinions, and to measure support for those ideals. If they win, great, but if not, that vote is still a permanent mark that whatever ideals a particular party has possess some measure of support, for better or for worse. I don't begrudge people for voting for (Actual) third parties, but I do feel that not voting at all is probably the worst thing you can do, and is the reason why the whole "Your vote doesn't matter" narrative needs to be dispelled. I've found voting to be a powerful tool for forcing me to clarify exactly what I think about politics and issues. Rather than forever debating the pros and cons of issues in my head, voting makes me quantify my values and choose a person who best represents my own views. Thus it makes me define exactly who I am and what I stand for. That has spinoffs in other areas of my life, as well. I vote for my own sake. So the issue of whether or not my vote makes a mathematical difference is beside the point, as far as I'm concerned.
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Feb 7, 2015 17:16
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re: sheriff thing holy hell i guess nobody's votes really counted in that situationAcebuckeye13 posted:Believing that your vote is the only one that should have to matter is a pretty selfish way of thinking about it. Of course your singular vote doesn't matter, that's the whole point of a democratic society. The purpose of voting is to determine majority and minority opinions, and to measure support for those ideals. If they win, great, but if not, that vote is still a permanent mark that whatever ideals a particular party has possess some measure of support, for better or for worse. I don't begrudge people for voting for (Actual) third parties, but I do feel that not voting at all is probably the worst thing you can do, and is the reason why the whole "Your vote doesn't matter" narrative needs to be dispelled. Nah, y'all should just not claim that voting is some huge privilege and start building it up as a cultural duty. Also having election day be a day off etc. Your whole electoral machinery is undemocratic as all get-out, and the circumstances leading up to and including the act of voting itself are only making it worse. When people stop voting, that isn't because they're bad people, it's because the narrative that's been built up around it doesn't jive with them. If some kid decides, gently caress it, I live in New York and we're going super-solid blue anyway, I'll just as well take that hour-ish it takes to vote and amuse myself instead, that's a perfectly legitimate decision in the current climate, and based on a perfectly valid analysis that his/her individual vote means jack poo poo to any outcome whatsoever. Personally I'd go out and vote for my local pinko candidate anyway, but I'm an enormous nerd. My point is, if you want to vote for some ludicrous party, there are basically no situations in which your private vote for such a party will end up mattering at all, in any way. Bush/Gore in Florida actually only serves to strengthen this position, because even with a case that was as close as it's realistically going to get in modern America you still had hundreds of votes tipping the balance, which is more than almost any non-obscenely-rich private individual is realistically going to be able to sway. It is a strange mythology you've built up around that election and y'all need to stop with it. Like, I'm not saying you should just stay at home, because it's not done and voting is an act of solidarity with the democratic institutions of your country, making not voting implicitly a condemnation of said institutions. I'm saying that this fetishisation of the individual vote, to the point of agonising over where to put it, is silly.
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Feb 7, 2015 17:20
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Rygar201 posted:Bullshit. The final margin in Florida in 2000 was less than the total of votes a joke Yogi Candidate got. Hey man, what if the flying yogi good vibes missile defense shield worked? We never tried it.
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Feb 7, 2015 17:37
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Joementum posted:Hey man, what if the flying yogi good vibes missile defense shield worked? We never tried it. We've also never tried nuking Russia. Now which is these two policies wins votes in Florida?
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Feb 7, 2015 17:41
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Rygar201 posted:Bullshit. The final margin in Florida in 2000 was less than the total of votes a joke Yogi Candidate got. Individual votes seldom matter, but groups of individuals do. Every individual who thanks their voter doesn't matter just skews the election more in favor of the likely voters. Thats in a swing state. The number of which you can count on one hand. The rest of the country doesn't need to be paid attention to or bother voting because the vote always goes one way. Even in that particular instance the voters didn't count since the end result did indeed say Gore won by the slimmest margin but the Supreme Court forced the result we got.
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Feb 7, 2015 17:45
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uncurable mlady posted:I remember this story. Wasn't it in Pulaski County? Yup. My Imaginary GF posted:Indirectly, you shot the sherriff. But I bet nobody shot his deputy.
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Feb 7, 2015 17:47
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My Imaginary GF posted:We've also never tried nuking Russia. Now which is these two policies wins votes in Florida? Hilary 2016: To The End of All Things
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Feb 7, 2015 17:47
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V. Illych L. posted:Hilary 2016: To The End of All Things THATS WHAT I SAY! No, seriously, that's what I've been saying since 2011. There's only one man in America whom Russia fears: Rahm. Now hear me out--America elects its first Jewish president, what will the anti-semites of the world think? They'll think we're bonkers, we're mad, we're out for their blood and its time to retreat to their borders and hunker down because dear god Rahm will kill you if you get in America's way. Hillary? She'll quiver on the issue for 9 months, until the military has time to institute its own response policies, by which point she'll be sidelined and forced to go with expanding the bombing campaign while calling up 9 brigades to defend the land-based bombers.
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Feb 7, 2015 17:56
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My Imaginary GF posted:THATS WHAT I SAY! Your reference to her gender was too subtle 3/10  That's the one thing I want to see in this primary have the women can't be president D's gotten the hell over it or are some careers about to implode?
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Feb 7, 2015 17:59
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SirKibbles posted:Your reference to her gender was too subtle 3/10 I believe the politically correct phrasing is that Democrats trend against candidates who are seen as inevitabilities with a sense of unearned ownership over the position, whereas Republicans trend towards party structure and knowing your place.
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Feb 7, 2015 18:53
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This is basically a semantical argument on what exactly "matters" means. If you don't cast your individual vote, and perhaps discourage others from doing so under these theories, you (and your overall demographic group) are marginally weakened, I'd say, and I think there's a lot of "well my vote won't matter, they're all crooks anyway, why should I bother" among younger people, followed by "why don't younger people vote?" and a general focus on catering to those who do vote. (And of course the big money donors but I'm leaving that aside for now.) My take is that all these interpretations are right but it is still good to go vote, encourage others (especially in your own demographic, which I presume in our cases is generally not "shithead reactionaries") to go vote, and facilitate the process of voting, as these seem to encourage something nearer to a progressive direction for policy. 
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Feb 7, 2015 19:08
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My Imaginary GF posted:Its alright Your not using English good.
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Feb 7, 2015 19:53
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YouTuber posted:Thats in a swing state. The number of which you can count on one hand. The rest of the country doesn't need to be paid attention to or bother voting because the vote always goes one way. Even in that particular instance the voters didn't count since the end result did indeed say Gore won by the slimmest margin but the Supreme Court forced the result we got. Goddammit people, there are downballot races you know.
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Feb 7, 2015 20:12
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Seriously what is up with MIGF
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Feb 7, 2015 20:15
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Tater Love 
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zakharov posted:Seriously what is up with MIGF He hasn't been the same since Obama threw him out of the White House 
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Feb 7, 2015 20:54
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zakharov posted:Seriously what is up with MIGF Massive stroke from all those grease-based "sandwiches."
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Feb 7, 2015 20:57
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Chokes McGee posted:He hasn't been the same since Obama threw him out of the White House Obama has had his policy influence whittled away by his repeated changes of direction and focus from 2009 to 2014 on the Democratic Senate majority. Now, all Obama has left to influence is foreign policy and appointments. Frankly, these days, I don't trust Obama to make the right call when his phone rings at 3am. He's simply too isolated and surrounded by loyalists, far more afraid of a leak than the contents which leak, and has no understanding on how to work with a Congress dominated by the other side. You do coalition politics, not personal politics; Obama has never been one for constructing and maintaining coalitions, nor will any of his moves since the election allow him to start. Now? Obama is damaging the consistency of American policy by interfering in areas which he knows nothing about and which he only knows rhetoric without substance. For a prime example of this, see Obama's proposal to tax 529s. Seriously, whoever came up with that poo poo of a policy should've been sacked long ago. Also he cares too much about arranging the perfect living environment in NYC after his term is over, and not enough on winning while he's still in office. Obama has moved on mentally towarda winning the future, when we need a President able and willing to win today.
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Feb 7, 2015 21:09
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zakharov posted:Seriously what is up with MIGF Rauner won and his gimmick turned even shittier
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Feb 7, 2015 21:22
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zakharov posted:Seriously what is up with MIGF All I know is that with him and a few others on ignore, this thread goes from a 1 to a 5.
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Feb 7, 2015 21:35
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My Imaginary GF posted:Obama has had his policy influence whittled away by his repeated changes of direction and focus from 2009 to 2014 on the Democratic Senate majority. Now, all Obama has left to influence is foreign policy and appointments. CHICAGO POLITICS 
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Feb 7, 2015 21:43
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My Imaginary GF posted:Obama has had his policy influence whittled away by his repeated changes of direction and focus from 2009 to 2014 on the Democratic Senate majority. Now, all Obama has left to influence is foreign policy and appointments. You're never getting that library, and neither Obama nor the Democratic party will suffer a whit of backlash from it.
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Feb 7, 2015 21:44
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Deteriorata posted:I've found voting to be a powerful tool for forcing me to clarify exactly what I think about politics and issues. Rather than forever debating the pros and cons of issues in my head, voting makes me quantify my values and choose a person who best represents my own views. Hang on, I want to clarify here: you vote because you think it's good for you.
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Feb 7, 2015 22:12
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Re: "One vote doesn't matter" 'How Bad For The Environment Can Throwing Away One Plastic Bottle Be?' 30 Million People Wonder To put it another way, just because it's a drop in the bucket doesn't mean you shouldn't fix your leaking roof. SpiderHyphenMan fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Feb 7, 2015 |
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Feb 7, 2015 23:05
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V. Illych L. posted:re: sheriff thing holy hell i guess nobody's votes really counted in that situation Part of the reason old people always vote is because of that fetishization though, they have it pounded into their brains that it's a civic duty to vote while young people generally don't give a gently caress, so the result is we're governed on the whims of reactionary old people which is obviously not a desirable situation. EDIT: Like even though the popular liberal millenial "my vote doesn't matter" attitude is more accurate than the "radical homomarxist black muslims are gonna take are country if you don't get to the polls  " attitude, the latter attitude is productive for what they want to get done while the liberal one is self-defeating.
MaxxBot fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Feb 7, 2015 |
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Feb 7, 2015 23:15
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I actually enjoy the activity of voting. It's more interesting than what I'd have going on usually and its kind of neat to see ballot measures and such.
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Feb 7, 2015 23:25
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Doesn't matter if you invite him or not, Steve King will show up at your Iowa fundraiser.
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Feb 7, 2015 23:28
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Joementum posted:Doesn't matter if you invite him or not, Steve King will show up at your Iowa fundraiser. All the bright red is clashing horribly with the washed out earth tones of the walls and windows.
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Feb 7, 2015 23:38
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:Re: "One vote doesn't matter" That's what gets me. People who understand the collective impact of individually insignificant aspects in other areas suddenly playing dumb when voting comes up are a lot like people who rush to get pedantic about how someone is paying for <insert proposed social service>, even though they wouldn't bat an eye if you said "public education is free" or "you don't have to pay the fire department".
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Feb 7, 2015 23:58
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Voting shouldn't be viewed as an individual action, more as a lifestyle choice. One vote in one election is irrelevant but a lifetime of voting and convincing others to do so has real value. If you don't believe that then you shouldn't bother exercising, eating right, changing your oil, cleaning your house, or avoiding littering. After all; one run doesn't matter, one candy bar doesn't matter, one mile on dirty oil doesn't matter, one dirty dish doesn't matter, one can tossed from a car window doesn't matter. It really doesn't. It's the lifestyle choice to do it consistently that has value. You shouldn't vote once for president. You should vote in every election available, argue with people in line, and convince every like minded friend to do the same. If you do that you might not ever influence a presidential election but over a lifetime? It's going to matter at some point.
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Feb 8, 2015 00:00
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