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zolthorg posted:Lmao "excluding those that are banworthy". Since custom moves have had so much tournament time so far, let's go ahead and imply that some are banworthy to skew the results of the poll positively towards "yes". My region plays exclusively with customs on, and... to be honest, the more I play with them, the more I can see the argument against them. Not that they take too long to unlock; not that they're too polarizing on a person-by-person basis (this guy prefers 1121 while this one prefers 1132, etc); but that they change the match ups too much. Fighting Mario with Fast Fireball or Ganon with Dropkick or Shulk with Heavy Counter changes how you fight as these people and how you fight against them really drastically. And don't get me started on Villager with Counter Timber in doubles, that poo poo's just not fair. e: that said, I still voted yes. We should experiment, and imo at the very least if customs wind up banned, Palutena and the Mii Fighters should be the exception since that's their whole thing regarding special moves.
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Feb 10, 2015 19:26
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I keep rereading that post, but I'm not sure how you come away with "more variety = not good" from it? How does changing how you fight/approach a character come out as a negative?
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Feb 10, 2015 19:34
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Ometeotl posted:I keep rereading that post, but I'm not sure how you come away with "more variety = not good" from it? How does changing how you fight/approach a character come out as a negative? It's more difficult to learn matchups when a given match-up of two characters (already a complex "system") suddenly can mean any of 38 different sub-matchups. And yes, that math is right. That said, I don't think that added complexity is necessarily a bad thing, and the potential to increase the pool of viable characters is really rad. But it'll take getting used to.
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Feb 10, 2015 19:37
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There are good customs which either improve how a bad move works (Heavy Skull Bash turns it from a recovery move into a KO option) or offer an alternate move altogether (all of Palutena's moves; Megaman's as well, to a lesser degree) but some customs are either tedious to play against (recovering against Mario's heavy cape) or don't make any god damned sense (Ike's diagonal Aether). I think we should explore customs and really shake out what their potential might be, but also consider that not every option would make for a positive addition to the game, simply because it exists.
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Feb 10, 2015 19:41
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I would also assume the fact that there is no visual clue of what you are getting into can be irritating. Like currently you get into a fight with Mario and if you have done your research and know your poo poo you are pretty confident of what you can expect. With customs you might be getting a drastically different character, and even if you are aware of every custom setup for every character you won't actually have any idea what he has equipped until he starts pelting you with fast fireballs or whatever.
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Feb 10, 2015 19:43
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I guess as character variety goes up the burden of knowledge increases to the point where keeping up with every matchup is less and less practical for more players? So that it's less about outplaying someone but more about matchup knowledge which just leans towards breadth rather than depth. I dunno if that's a valid argument but hey i guess it's something. Still wanna see customs though just to see how it plays out
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Feb 10, 2015 19:48
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Guy A. Person posted:I would also assume the fact that there is no visual clue of what you are getting into can be irritating. Like currently you get into a fight with Mario and if you have done your research and know your poo poo you are pretty confident of what you can expect. With customs you might be getting a drastically different character, and even if you are aware of every custom setup for every character you won't actually have any idea what he has equipped until he starts pelting you with fast fireballs or whatever. Presumably, in a tournament setting you'd be required to disclose your moveset before fighting begins.
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Feb 10, 2015 19:49
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Guy A. Person posted:I would also assume the fact that there is no visual clue of what you are getting into can be irritating. Like currently you get into a fight with Mario and if you have done your research and know your poo poo you are pretty confident of what you can expect. With customs you might be getting a drastically different character, and even if you are aware of every custom setup for every character you won't actually have any idea what he has equipped until he starts pelting you with fast fireballs or whatever. The sets are literally coded, you go right in knowing exactly what moves an opponent has. E: like a 1211 Bowser tells you he has the dash claw side special and nothing else.
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Feb 10, 2015 19:49
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The best way to do it would be have a random character select and each character has random movesets. It would be one hell of a tournament.
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Feb 10, 2015 19:53
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Fingerless Gloves posted:The best way to do it would be have a random character select and each character has random movesets. It would be one hell of a tournament. I don't believe that Smash Tour is competitively viable
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Feb 10, 2015 19:55
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Reiley posted:I don't believe that Smash Tour is competitively viable Wait, why hasn't there been a Smash Tour tournament?????
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Feb 10, 2015 20:01
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TheKingofSprings posted:The sets are literally coded, you go right in knowing exactly what moves an opponent has. ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh gotcha. That is what I get for commenting on something I know literally nothing about!
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Feb 10, 2015 20:01
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Reiley posted:I don't believe that Smash Tour is competitively viable I believe it is bad, actually E: also Ike's diagonal aether clipping through the stage is as much on the developers as it is on anything else. It should get fixed the same as any glitch should.
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Feb 10, 2015 20:02
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messagemode1 posted:Wait, why hasn't there been a Smash Tour tournament????? Because Smash Tour is bad.
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Feb 10, 2015 20:02
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custom characters should be a non-issue now that they can be shared via miiverse. just make a "custom character" account and post up the combinations most likely to be used, or just drop your own on there and grab it at tournaments.
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Feb 10, 2015 21:41
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The argument that custom moves should be banned because it makes the game too unpredictable is retarded, unless you are also arguing any game with stance changes like Gen in Street Fighter or the Grooves in Capcom vs. SNK series should be banned.
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Feb 10, 2015 21:44
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Dieting Hippo posted:custom characters should be a non-issue now that they can be shared via miiverse. just make a "custom character" account and post up the combinations most likely to be used, or just drop your own on there and grab it at tournaments. can any custom characters be uploaded? i was under the impression it was mii fighters only
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Feb 10, 2015 21:48
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Maple Leaf posted:Even if you don't go to tournaments but you like to watch them, cast your vote on whether you'd like to see custom moves legal! Hello Lady Palutena.
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Feb 10, 2015 21:48
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Dieting Hippo posted:custom characters should be a non-issue now that they can be shared via miiverse. just make a "custom character" account and post up the combinations most likely to be used, or just drop your own on there and grab it at tournaments. Very few tournaments, even the smaller ones, are at venues that both have wifi and have wifi that is not password protected. Imagine a tournament like Apex, with three or four 720p 60fps streams plus dozens of Wii Us and 3DSs all vying for the internet connection, plus everybody's cellphones once they realize the wifi's free... Uploading to and downloading from the internet would be nice, but it's unfortunately not an option. Tae posted:The argument that custom moves should be banned because it makes the game too unpredictable is retarded, unless you are also arguing any game with stance changes like Gen in Street Fighter or the Grooves in Capcom vs. SNK series should be banned. Well, if that's the comparison you're going to make, you could have just pointed to Shulk, who has six different stances (including default) he can choose from at any point. But that's not the argument. People like Shulk or Gen or whoever, those are part of their default movesets, something that you can practice for and anticipate. But you can't really do that with customs - even if you know every custom front to back, you can be hit with so many different combinations as to make your knowledge of the match up totally useless. It's safe to approach Ganon from this angle, unless he has Dropkick, in that case, approach from this angle, but if he has Flame Rush (or whatever that side B custom that doesn't grab is called) than approach from here, unless he has default Wizkick, and if he has the punch with the sword then just forget everything. Of course that's an extreme example, though.
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Feb 10, 2015 21:54
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Maple Leaf posted:Very few tournaments, even the smaller ones, are at venues that both have wifi and have wifi that is not password protected. Imagine a tournament like Apex, with three or four 720p 60fps streams plus dozens of Wii Us and 3DSs all vying for the internet connection, plus everybody's cellphones once they realize the wifi's free... it would be fine for getting them all ahead of time though, and it would be a lot faster and easier than just passing around a single 3ds to each system
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Feb 10, 2015 22:01
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=SvHef5L6MIg What Sm4sh may look like with customs legal
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Feb 10, 2015 22:03
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Customs shouldn't be a big deal (except for logistical reasons). Fighting games having customization options isn't the newest thing ever. MvC3 has two assists which can have any of three moves each. SF3 and SFIV make the player pick their super/ultra respectively. Arcana Heart basically allows the player to pick the second half of their moveset. Skullgirls allows for assists, too, and it allows the user to pick preset moves or custom moves. As far as I know, if the tourney's allowing you to counter pick characters, they don't disallow picking a different super or team or whatever.
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Feb 10, 2015 22:03
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Maple Leaf posted:It's safe to approach Ganon from this angle, unless he has Dropkick, in that case, approach from this angle, but if he has Flame Rush (or whatever that side B custom that doesn't grab is called) than approach from here, unless he has default Wizkick, and if he has the punch with the sword then just forget everything. Of course that's an extreme example, though. Sounds to me like it would reward players who are good at adapting, and it also sounds way more interesting to watch.
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Feb 10, 2015 22:04
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TheKingofSprings posted:https://youtube.com/watch?v=SvHef5L6MIg *sharrrk, in an extremely dumb voice*: durrr, palutena's standard specials are all really good. i like them better than her others. i don't even think lightweight is good at all. 
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Feb 10, 2015 22:09
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TheKingofSprings posted:https://youtube.com/watch?v=SvHef5L6MIg I support this in the hopes that Palutena may actually see some use.
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Feb 10, 2015 22:10
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mabels big day posted:*sharrrk, in an extremely dumb voice*: durrr, palutena's standard specials are all really good. i like them better than her others. i don't even think lightweight is good at all. ive never said that lightweight or any of her other specials were bad. i just dont like em as much as her defaults
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Feb 10, 2015 22:10
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ChaosArgate posted:I support this in the hopes that Palutena may actually see some use. I may be wrong, but it looked like super speed combo'd directly into poo poo like up air which is a kill move, which automatically makes her diddy tier
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Feb 10, 2015 22:15
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mabels big day posted:*sharrrk, in an extremely dumb voice*: durrr, palutena's standard specials are all really good. i like them better than her others. i don't even think lightweight is good at all.
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Feb 10, 2015 22:18
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sharrrk posted:can any custom characters be uploaded? i was under the impression it was mii fighters only well poo poo, it's mii fighters only. thats really stupid and dumb, thanks sakurai
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Feb 10, 2015 22:20
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Maple Leaf posted:But that's not the argument. People like Shulk or Gen or whoever, those are part of their default movesets, something that you can practice for and anticipate. But you can't really do that with customs - even if you know every custom front to back, you can be hit with so many different combinations as to make your knowledge of the match up totally useless. It's safe to approach Ganon from this angle, unless he has Dropkick, in that case, approach from this angle, but if he has Flame Rush (or whatever that side B custom that doesn't grab is called) than approach from here, unless he has default Wizkick, and if he has the punch with the sword then just forget everything. Of course that's an extreme example, though. This is a bad argument because the metagame will eventually settle on an equilibrium where you're only going to see a handful of combinations, and thus you'll still only need to prepare for a small number of options. To use whalestory's framework, this will add a lot of breadth, but that won't preclude the possibility of depth which just comes over time. Having so many options does make depth take longer, and it could be that the best tech in the game won't be discovered for years. I do like the potential for more hard-counter-picking, I think.
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Feb 10, 2015 22:25
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TheKingofSprings posted:https://youtube.com/watch?v=SvHef5L6MIg Wow, this makes Palutena look fun to play as. Why can't everybody have Super speed/lightweight as alternative special moves?
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Feb 10, 2015 22:30
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Bluff Buster posted:Wow, this makes Palutena look fun to play as. Why can't everybody have Super speed/lightweight as alternative special moves? Custom palutena is very fun.
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Feb 10, 2015 22:32
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default palutena is very fun as well
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Feb 10, 2015 22:42
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Capcom Vs. SNK literally changes what universal properties you can have, along with what kind of super you can use. You literally can't block in the air for some Grooves, or roll, or even activate your super manually. The worst custom moves can do is that after the first few months when every custom move is being tested, more characters are on Diddy's level instead of yet another Metaknight situation.
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Feb 10, 2015 23:20
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But how good are diddy's custom moves??
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Feb 10, 2015 23:56
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Not as much of a game-changer as palutena's, that's for sure.
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Feb 11, 2015 00:13
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Diddy's customs suck, his best moveset is 1/1/1/1 The cool thing about customs is that they enable counterplay options that aren't just "pick a different character" or "pick a different stage", and allow for true combos. Fox with the wolf customs is especially potent due to this, since he gets guaranteed kill combos are certain percents. Puff gets some cool stuff too, and I think I was reading somewhere that Link has some neat applications with custom boomerang options. It'd be real cool provided it wasn't a dick to unlock, but Nintendo. Supposedly EVO is using specially licensed versions of the game so maybe that problem will be mitigated.
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Feb 11, 2015 02:57
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I hate playing Fox normally but being able to use the custom Up-B that makes him do a pseudo-Giga Drill Breaker makes him a lot more fun and whenever I can use customs I put that on him. As well as a few others, but most importantly, that. Also Ganondorf gets a lot more fun with a custom moveset, he went from a character I disliked to my first pick for a villain.
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Feb 11, 2015 03:13
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The only customs I used for Puff were Hyper Voice and Wakie-Wakie (I think they're both #2), are the others good? They didn't seem like better options when I tried them out but who knows, I'm far from the best.
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Feb 11, 2015 03:19
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I hope they let customs through, because then Mega Man will have a useful side-B and down-B. Metal Blade and Rush Coil are fine, but I'm pretty sure something like Hyper Bomb, Tornado Hold, Danger Wrap, and Skull Barrier would make Mega Mans more fun to watch, since they might actually be using their specials apart from throwing metal blades everywhere. Danger Wrap is a pretty good KO move, too. Unsurprisingly I don't think I've seen anyone use Crash Bombs or Leaf Shield in a tournament, at least not very much.
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Feb 11, 2015 03:41
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