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Effectronica posted:Actually, yes, he's defending bad policy. I realize that you have a shriveled corpse of a brain instead of a fully-functioning one, but perhaps some oxygen-deprived neuron will grasp this: responding to a point about how the policy itself is fundamentally flawed with "we have to enforce it" is, in fact, defending the bad policy. rude! mods?! point made by someone later
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Feb 11, 2015 03:40
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theflyingorc posted:Nah, his point is that, at some deep level, all law has to be enforced by the threat of physical violence or being locked up, because otherwise it's de facto legal to ignore the law - that's a true statement. That doesn't mean that the government can't take steps to lower the burden of fines on the poor and working with people who miss court for good reasons. As a response to "this policy is fundamentally flawed under your own metrics", it is either a defense or the sign of someone so stupid, so incredibly disembrained, that they are unable to think on their feet beyond giving canned responses. So I'm trying to be nice here.
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Feb 11, 2015 03:40
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Cole posted:There is. It's called "call your courthouse and work a payment plan out." Considering that I had no idea this was an option, and I've dealt with 5-6 traffic violations, it's worth considering that our nation's least educated and least trusting of the justice system might not know it, either.
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Feb 11, 2015 03:41
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:Where I live, it's a 65 mph speed limit on the freeways and it is not at all unusual for the flow of traffic to be 75-80. This indicates that the speed limit is set artificially low, again because of perverse incentive.
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Feb 11, 2015 03:42
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theflyingorc posted:Considering that I had no idea this was an option, and I've dealt with 5-6 traffic violations, it's worth considering that our nation's least educated and least trusting of the justice system might not know it, either. But it is an option, which is the point.
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Feb 11, 2015 03:42
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Cole posted:But it is an option, which is the point. And option behind a barrier of knowledge that you can make poor assumptions about and end up locked up is also still really bad.
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Feb 11, 2015 03:47
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Speed limits exist to promote safe driving. Speeding tickets are supposed to be the enforcement mechanism that ensures the limits have the desired effect. I have never seen any solid data indicating that enforcement rates or past ticket citations deter future bad driving. Unless I see data showing me that ticketing people "works," then I don't see any compelling reason why they should exist at all or why cops should devote so much time and energy to giving them. It's some how an inescapable assumption that we need to fine and possibly jail bad drivers for bad driving. But if it doesn't work, why on Earth should we do it? Is it really that important that we punish people, even without any showing of efficacy or positive outcomes? Is it really that important to punish anyone who floats any rule, regulation, law, statute, or ordinance, regardless of how important the offense is, and regardless of what actual, practical effects you accomplish by doing so? Are we a society of vindictive, pissant hall monitors now?
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Feb 11, 2015 03:48
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Stultus Maximus posted:If there is no evidence that black people commit more traffic violations than white people but they get more tickets than white people, that is a higher rate. So you've successfully quoted wikipedia out of context, but I asked what was an "offense rate". Not rate. Stultus Maximus posted:Man, if only this thread and other discussions had some data about how black people are stopped by the cops disproportionally to offense rate. That sure would be something. But I guess it's just all about don't do the crime if you can't do the time, nothing else here. Specifically, how do they measure offense rate. There is no evividence that blacks commiit more traffic violations, so is it true in the opposite? Actually, I'm really confused what the statistics are for 'committing a violation' and 'issued a ticket' are across racial lines.
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Feb 11, 2015 03:49
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theflyingorc posted:And option behind a barrier of knowledge that you can make poor assumptions about and end up locked up is also still really bad. Actually I just called them up and said I couldn't pay it. Took about five minutes.
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Feb 11, 2015 03:52
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Cole posted:Actually I just called them up and said I couldn't pay it. Took about five minutes. Okay, so what is your point here? That people with thousands of dollars in parking or traffic fines are just masochists?
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Feb 11, 2015 03:53
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Randbrick posted:Unless I see data showing me that ticketing people "works," then I don't see any compelling reason why they should exist at all or why cops should devote so much time and energy to giving them. Darth123123 posted:Specifically, how do they measure offense rate. There is no evividence that blacks commiit more traffic violations, so is it true in the opposite? Actually, I'm really confused what the statistics are for 'committing a violation' and 'issued a ticket' are across racial lines.
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Feb 11, 2015 03:53
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Effectronica posted:Okay, so what is your point here? That people with thousands of dollars in parking or traffic fines are just masochists? I wasn't talking to you so my point is irrelevant to you.
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Feb 11, 2015 03:54
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Powercrazy posted:This indicates that the speed limit is set artificially low, again because of perverse incentive. The US having low speed limits is mostly an effect of the oil crisis in the 1970s.
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Feb 11, 2015 03:54
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Effectronica posted:Okay. So do you also believe that flat fees are a good idea for traffic tickets? I'm open to the idea of a progressive fine system, do you have an example of how this could be implemented? Effectronica posted:As a response to "this policy is fundamentally flawed under your own metrics", it is either a defense or the sign of someone so stupid, so incredibly disembrained, that they are unable to think on their feet beyond giving canned responses. So I'm trying to be nice here. This coming from the person who said that speeding tickets are basically like Auschwitz Dr. Arbitrary posted:
Why do you think it is they only speed by that much on the highway? Hint: its because they know they can get away with it. Powercrazy posted:This indicates that the speed limit is set artificially low, again because of perverse incentive. No it indicates people will drive as fast as they can get away with.
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Feb 11, 2015 03:54
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Cole posted:Actually I just called them up and said I couldn't pay it. Took about five minutes. Well, you're aggressively missing my point now, so I guess I'll talk to other people instead of you.
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Feb 11, 2015 03:55
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This is a tremendously dumb conversation in the context of a municipality that issues warrants at 3x the rate of anyone else in the county, clearly counts on fines for revenue(at 20-25% it's basically a major portion of the income) and fines people who can't pay over and over until they go to jail and still can't pay, with a local police force recently famous for racism, poo poo policing, and way over-reacting to any particular thing. But "don't do the crime" is certainly something we can talk about in the Contextless Void of the Mike Brown thread.
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Feb 11, 2015 03:55
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Randbrick posted:Speed limits exist to promote safe driving. Speeding tickets are supposed to be the enforcement mechanism that ensures the limits have the desired effect. I drive 85 in school zones and read Ayn rand at the same time
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Feb 11, 2015 03:59
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Jarmak posted:Why do you think it is they only speed by that much on the highway? Hint: its because they know they can get away with it. This isn't law enforcement, this is a lottery. Every now and then, for driving in a socially acceptable, utterly normal way, some fraction of motorists will be singled out and ticketed for doing what the overwhelming majority of their peers are doing. What kind of sense does that make? Heaven forbid that some scofflaw should escape Justice for giving such offense to the sacred driving number sign. In time, they may grow so bold to jaywalk.
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Feb 11, 2015 04:00
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Cole posted:I wasn't talking to you so my point is irrelevant to you. No, it's not, unless you know the poster in question personally. What, exactly, is your reasoning behind repeating things like you're a parrot owned by a particularly boring man? Jarmak posted:I'm open to the idea of a progressive fine system, do you have an example of how this could be implemented? Unfortunately, you're frankly too stupid to be worth talking to, as judged by your inability to read your native language at a seventh-grade level. But I'd suggest that with an automatic tax system like was mentioned earlier in the thread, you'd already have a general idea of what people could reasonably pay and so could issue fines on that basis, using all this data-mining capacity we've got now. You could easily set this up with safeguards against it being too surveillance-state, and make it mostly done through the mail or e-mail, reducing the massive load on the courts caused by people coming in to pay fines. You could even include appeal forms to allow people to challenge fines that are too high because they're out of work or have a kid in college or whatever, so that redresses and failures can be addressed without just changing the nature of the problem.
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Feb 11, 2015 04:00
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Randbrick posted:Get away with what, exactly? Driving at a rate of speed that aligns with the flow of traffic? So everyone knows that everyone can get away with it? I agree, as long as I can hold my car in between the lines as I drive home from the bar, police shouldn't victimize me. After all, everyone does it.
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Feb 11, 2015 04:01
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Zeitgueist posted:This is a tremendously dumb conversation in the context of a municipality that issues warrants at 3x the rate of anyone else in the county, clearly counts on fines for revenue(at 20-25% it's basically a major portion of the income) and fines people who can't pay over and over until they go to jail and still can't pay, with a local police force recently famous for racism, poo poo policing, and way over-reacting to any particular thing. 
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Feb 11, 2015 04:02
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theflyingorc posted:Well, you're aggressively missing my point now, so I guess I'll talk to other people instead of you. Here's a thing a lot of people don't know, but it seems unbelievably obvious to me: If you can't pay your bills, traffic tickets included, you call the billing agency (in this case the county clerk of courts) and tell them you can't pay it. This is called "maturity."
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Feb 11, 2015 04:04
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on the left posted:I agree, as long as I can hold my car in between the lines as I drive home from the bar, police shouldn't victimize me. After all, everyone does it. As an aside, the sort of everyday speeding that the majority of the population indulges in is not an indication of impairment.
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Feb 11, 2015 04:04
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on the left posted:I agree, as long as I can hold my car in between the lines as I drive home from the bar, police shouldn't victimize me. After all, everyone does it. So how many people are killed by driving with the flow of traffic again? How many tens of thousands slaughtered by their selfish, insane decision to drive at 75 mph in the middle lane when the cars in front of and behind them are doing so?
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Feb 11, 2015 04:04
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Cole posted:Here's a thing a lot of people don't know, but it seems unbelievably obvious to me: If you can't pay your bills, traffic tickets included, you call the billing agency (in this case the county clerk of courts) and tell them you can't pay it. This is called "maturity." Okay, so you could have just answered my question by saying anyone with thousands of dollars in parking fines is a manchild, but you didn't. Why?
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Feb 11, 2015 04:05
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Effectronica posted:So how many people are killed by driving with the flow of traffic again? How many tens of thousands slaughtered by their selfish, insane decision to drive at 75 mph in the middle lane when the cars in front of and behind them are doing so? They are still breaking the law, whether or not everyone else is breaking the law as well. And it is a very easily observed law (in the sense that you know that it is a law), so you speed at your own risk and a cop isn't a dick for pulling you over.
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Feb 11, 2015 04:05
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on the left posted:I agree, as long as I can hold my car in between the lines as I drive home from the bar, police shouldn't victimize me. After all, everyone does it. I don't know if "everyone does it" but yea, there shouldn't be a problem there. Congrats.
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Feb 11, 2015 04:06
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Effectronica posted:No, it's not, unless you know the poster in question personally. What, exactly, is your reasoning behind repeating things like you're a parrot owned by a particularly boring man? Lol. Data mining in a large scale that isn't intrusive, implemented in small town Missouri, and written forms where illiteracy abounds. Good plan. You really sound like you need a pill or joint tho
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Feb 11, 2015 04:07
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Cole posted:They are still breaking the law, whether or not everyone else is breaking the law as well. And it is a very easily observed law (in the sense that you know that it is a law), so you speed at your own risk and a cop isn't a dick for pulling you over. DUIs are a crime, and I realize you have the peculiar brain damage where everything exists in a howling void without any connections between so this is wasted energy, because driving drunk or high or otherwise impaired increases your chances of hurting or killing someone markedly. Driving with the flow of traffic actually makes you, and the people around you, safer than obeying the speed limit rigorously.
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Feb 11, 2015 04:07
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Effectronica posted:Okay, so you could have just answered my question by saying anyone with thousands of dollars in parking fines is a manchild, but you didn't. Why? People with thousands of dollars in parking tickets are morons. Is that a good enough answer? Because when I think of manchild I think of like.. an NFL linebacker.
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Feb 11, 2015 04:09
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Darth123123 posted:Lol. Data mining in a large scale that isn't intrusive, implemented in small town Missouri, and written forms where illiteracy abounds. Good plan. Ferguson is a suburb of one of the US's major cities. I was speaking in general terms, as even a ten-year-old could recognize. You have something deeply wrong with your brain. Cole posted:People with thousands of dollars in parking tickets are morons. Is that a good enough answer? Because when I think of manchild I think of like.. an NFL linebacker. You already answered it, dumbass. I want to know why it was so hard for you to give a straight answer. Do you see a therapist? Because if not, well...
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Feb 11, 2015 04:10
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Effectronica posted:DUIs are a crime, and I realize you have the peculiar brain damage where everything exists in a howling void without any connections between so this is wasted energy, because driving drunk or high or otherwise impaired increases your chances of hurting or killing someone markedly. Driving with the flow of traffic actually makes you, and the people around you, safer than obeying the speed limit rigorously. Speed kills.
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Feb 11, 2015 04:10
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Cole posted:They are still breaking the law, whether or not everyone else is breaking the law as well. And it is a very easily observed law (in the sense that you know that it is a law), so you speed at your own risk and a cop isn't a dick for pulling you over. Why do we have laws we openly acknowledge that everyone breaks as a matter of basic routine?
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Feb 11, 2015 04:11
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Randbrick posted:What does it mean, morally, ethically, philosophically, to punish selected people for breaking a law that everyone breaks? That everyone needs to slow down.
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Feb 11, 2015 04:12
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Randbrick posted:Why do we have laws we openly acknowledge that everyone breaks as a matter of basic routine?
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Feb 11, 2015 04:12
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Darth123123 posted:Speed kills. I hope you put this into action by driving at 55 in the left lane someday.
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Feb 11, 2015 04:12
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Effectronica posted:Ferguson is a suburb of one of the US's major cities. I was speaking in general terms, as even a ten-year-old could recognize. You have something deeply wrong with your brain. Explain this nation non intrusive data mining for us dolts. Lol. In general terms of course
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Feb 11, 2015 04:14
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Effectronica posted:I hope you put this into action by driving at 55 in the left lane someday. And if someone hits me from behind, guess who's fault it is? Not the person doing 55!
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Feb 11, 2015 04:14
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Zeitgueist posted:This is a tremendously dumb conversation in the context of a municipality that issues warrants at 3x the rate of anyone else in the county, clearly counts on fines for revenue(at 20-25% it's basically a major portion of the income) and fines people who can't pay over and over until they go to jail and still can't pay, with a local police force recently famous for racism, poo poo policing, and way over-reacting to any particular thing. Agreed, but I'm not sure what kind of conversation we can have if we can't even acknowledge that traffic regulations serve a legitimate purpose Jarmak fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Feb 11, 2015 |
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Feb 11, 2015 04:15
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Cole posted:And if someone hits me from behind, guess who's fault it is? Not the person doing 55! yes it it, obstructing the flow of traffic is a ticketable offense
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Feb 11, 2015 04:16
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