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Habibi posted:That's more or less the argument I made in a recent FB discussion on how to convince these people to do an about turn. The Backfire Effect is particularly strong with antivaxers, not least because that demographic overlaps significantly with conspiracy theorists, and one of the most efficacious methods of defeating it is to make the benefit to changing their minds personal. Sadly, the best (only?) way for the benefit of vaccines to bexome personal to antivaxers is if they end up suffering (or having their kids suffer) from an illness they refuse to vaccinate against. So, yes, unfortunate though it is, that's probably the only way it will happen in a lot of cases (if it happens at all). Why not instead advocate for removal of non-medical exemptions and take the choice to risk other people's lives out of their hands?
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Feb 11, 2015 18:09
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Solkanar512 posted:Why not instead advocate for removal of non-medical exemptions and take the choice to risk other people's lives out of their hands? Yes but enough about Hitler. 
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Feb 11, 2015 18:11
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I seem to have started some family drama after posting something to the effect of "if alternative medicine actually worked, it would be called medicine. Instead, it would be better to call it quackery".My Uncle who's married to a naturopath with a "doctorate" posted:Sorry but I can't agree with you. The AMA decides what is regular medicine and what is not. Double blind testing is a protocol for pharmaceuticals and is not a fail safe. Watch your TV, how many of your "tested" products are the subject of class action lawsuits, recalls, and warnings about how a drug that is "tested" for foot fungus can cause diarrhea, blindness, or in extreme cases, Death. But hey, it can mask the symptoms of foot fungus but that' okay. (Just an example) His wife services the Amish population in NE Ohio, and was involved in a case where an Amish family fled the country to avoid a court-appointment medical advocate over their 10-yo's cancer treatment. For some fun stuff, here's her credentials: quote:She is a Doctor of Natural Medicine (ND), Certified Natural Health Practitioner (CNHP), D.PSc – Diplomate of Pastoral Science for PMA and a licensed health provider for PMA, Veterinary Aide, Digital Health Specialist (QBS) – Quantum Biofeedback Specialist, a Digestive Care Specialist for Advanced Naturals, an Independent Consultant for doTerra Essential Oils and Certified AromaTouch Technician for doTerra. CommanderApaul fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Feb 11, 2015 |
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Feb 11, 2015 18:12
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Solkanar512 posted:Why not instead advocate for removal of non-medical exemptions and take the choice to risk other people's lives out of their hands? Because that was just a commentary on how minds might go about being changed, not forced?
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Feb 11, 2015 18:18
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CommanderApaul posted:For some fun stuff, here's her credentials: So she's a vet with a lot of hobbies?
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Feb 11, 2015 18:24
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OwlFancier posted:So she's a vet with a lot of hobbies? Pretty much. She's the one who talked my registered nurse mother and my lab technician sister into biofeedback, detox foot baths and a gluten free diet for my sister's ADHD/autistic daughter, convincing the both of them that her autism was caused by her vaccinations because the biofeedback machine somehow indicated mercury causing problems. Weekly therapy sessions for months, at a discounted rate because it's family. It even bled over to my RN wife who wanted to delay our son's vaccinations "because of what they did to Hadley." They finally woke the gently caress up, got the girl to a psych doctor at Columbus Childrens, and got her on ADHD medication that has drastically improved her quality of life, to the point that she's able to be mainstreamed in school just a year behind where she should be, after 3 years of getting repeatedly kicked out of daycares for her behavior and my sister losing 4 jobs because of lack of childcare. I can't imagine where they'd be if they'd kept listening to her bullshit.
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Feb 11, 2015 18:32
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OwlFancier posted:So she's a vet with a lot of hobbies? quote:Quantum Biofeedback Specialist She is also a time traveler... or something.
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Feb 11, 2015 18:33
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Habibi posted:Because that was just a commentary on how minds might go about being changed, not forced? My greater point here is that when people are actively putting the lives of other people at risk, society shouldn't have to convince them of their folly or otherwise tolerate their bullshit in the first place. There's a mindset that "everyone has a right to make their own choice" but last time I checked, the rights of one's fist end at my nose.
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Feb 11, 2015 18:51
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Solkanar512 posted:My greater point here is that when people are actively putting the lives of other people at risk, society shouldn't have to convince them of their folly or otherwise tolerate their bullshit in the first place. There's a mindset that "everyone has a right to make their own choice" but last time I checked, the rights of one's fist end at my nose. I don't disagree with you, I was just responding to a specific point. That said, I think it's probably better to change minds than force them. But if public safety is at risk, you do what you gotta do and hope you can change minds later.
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Feb 11, 2015 19:17
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Habibi posted:I don't disagree with you, I was just responding to a specific point. That said, I think it's probably better to change minds than force them. But if public safety is at risk, you do what you gotta do and hope you can change minds later. Fair enough.
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Feb 11, 2015 19:37
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Habibi posted:I don't disagree with you, I was just responding to a specific point. That said, I think it's probably better to change minds than force them. But if public safety is at risk, you do what you gotta do and hope you can change minds later. I don't think any of the US vaccination laws actually mandate vaccination so much as make it a requirement for public school enrollment. This is probably a better approach anyway, otherwise you'll get people lying and forging documents, which would really mess things up in the event of an outbreak. Remove all non-medical exemptions and maybe extend vaccination requirements to licensed daycares and that will probably deal with the foot-dragging non-fanatical vaccination skeptics.
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Feb 11, 2015 19:47
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Vienna Circlejerk posted:I don't think any of the US vaccination laws actually mandate vaccination so much as make it a requirement for public school enrollment. This is probably a better approach anyway, otherwise you'll get people lying and forging documents, which would really mess things up in the event of an outbreak. Remove all non-medical exemptions and maybe extend vaccination requirements to licensed daycares and that will probably deal with the foot-dragging non-fanatical vaccination skeptics. Yeah, I'm wary about actually mandating vaccinations in this fashion, both for issues of precedent, workarounds, and opening up avenues of "big government" complaints. I agree that making them required for public school participation, etc... seems a more sensible route. Relatedly, a friend of a friend who is a hardcore libertarian suggested that a true free market schooling system would allow schools to advertise as vaccinated or vaccination free, allowing parents to just choose which they want their kids to attend. I can see why it would appeal to the ideologically driven, but in typical fashion it ignores the practical consequences of creating these concentrated disease factories (from which kids will then mingle with the general populace).
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Feb 11, 2015 19:57
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If someone showed up to an interview with "Quantum Biofeedback Specialist" on their resume I'd laugh in their face on the spot. As a degree'd physicist, it irks me to no end when these crazy natural healing fucknuts misappropriate "quantum" for whatever scams they're pushing
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Feb 11, 2015 20:00
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Javid posted:The willful ignorance and refusal to listen of these people is why I finally just started supporting making the vaccines mandatory. Pull all non-medical exemptions and let them homeschool if they don't like it. Me too. This is probably one of the very few times I've been honestly upset by other peoples' beliefs. I think one of the most valuable things you can learn as an adult is that there are lots of absolutely stupid people out there who are literally unable to listen to any kind of reason. It saves a lot of frustration after you accept this and move on.
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Feb 11, 2015 20:03
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Too many public schools are allowing exemptions for stupid poo poo. Antivax parents in most states have no problem getting their kid into public school without any vaccinations. A lot of these exemptions are baseless and should be thrown out. And then make vaccination mandatory for medical insurance coverage of preventable diseases, with exceptions for immunocompromised individuals.
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Feb 11, 2015 20:08
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ToxicSlurpee posted:You know, I was thinking about this thread, the previous derail, and my own experiences being poor as gently caress and I noticed something; how many anti-vaxxers are upper middle class and higher? This class, the same ones that directly or indirectly gently caress up opportunities the poor otherwise have, claw and scrape for any advantage they can grasp at for their own offspring. Considering that "vaccines are poison and cause autism" is an increasingly common belief they're not willing to risk something going wrong with the vaccine. The book On Immunity talks about this, and essentially argues that wealth gives people the time and money to worry about problems that poor people can't afford to.
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Feb 11, 2015 20:39
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I frequently enroll kids in school, and one of the rights of homeless youth under McKinney-Vento is to enroll immediately without having to wait for immunization records. It definitely makes sense that they should have as few barriers to speedy enrollment as possible--every day lost contributes to their overall deficits--and we definitely try to make sure they get to a doctor right away but you can see where there is a downside.
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Feb 11, 2015 20:42
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Solkanar512 posted:Why not instead advocate for removal of non-medical exemptions and take the choice to risk other people's lives out of their hands? Because for that to happen, you have to convince a significant number of anti-vaxxers to change their minds first. Non-medical vaccine exemptions didn't just spontaneously materialize out of thin air - they were created in response to public demand. "Just make a law saying vaccines are mandatory" isn't a viable solution when the anti-vaxxers have already demonstrated that they have the political power to overturn mandatory vaccine policies. Like it or not, the anti-vaxxers have a distinct advantage in the political arena right now; there's no way they can be shut out politically like that without first winning a battle of hearts and minds among the general population. QuarkJets posted:Too many public schools are allowing exemptions for stupid poo poo. Antivax parents in most states have no problem getting their kid into public school without any vaccinations. A lot of these exemptions are baseless and should be thrown out. This sounds incredibly counterproductive. The kinds of parents who refuse to vaccinate because of BIG MEDICINE are already less likely to see a doctor, more likely to buy "treatments" that wouldn't be covered by their insurance anyway, and so on. As a result, this would be more likely to incentivize them to go without insurance and avoid doctors, rather than driving them toward vaccination. And what if their kid gets sick enough that they have an eleventh-hour change of heart and decide to go see a doctor? The cost of a doctor's visit without insurance looms up at that moment and gives them an incentive to write off the doctor and try another round of homeopathy instead. You end up denying healthcare to the people most likely to get severely sick.
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Feb 11, 2015 20:44
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QuarkJets posted:If someone showed up to an interview with "Quantum Biofeedback Specialist" on their resume I'd laugh in their face on the spot. As a degree'd physicist, it irks me to no end when these crazy natural healing fucknuts misappropriate "quantum" for whatever scams they're pushing Oh come now, quantum new age people have lots of experience with radioactivity and its effects on the human body they're perfect candidates for working in physics labs!
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Feb 11, 2015 20:45
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SedanChair posted:I frequently enroll kids in school, and one of the rights of homeless youth under McKinney-Vento is to enroll immediately without having to wait for immunization records. And I'm fine with this because it doesn't actually get anyone out of vaccination. It's not like you're giving them a permanent exception because of some crazy bullshit they claim to believe.
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Feb 11, 2015 20:50
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Main Paineframe posted:Because for that to happen, you have to convince a significant number of anti-vaxxers to change their minds first. Non-medical vaccine exemptions didn't just spontaneously materialize out of thin air - they were created in response to public demand. "Just make a law saying vaccines are mandatory" isn't a viable solution when the anti-vaxxers have already demonstrated that they have the political power to overturn mandatory vaccine policies. Like it or not, the anti-vaxxers have a distinct advantage in the political arena right now; there's no way they can be shut out politically like that without first winning a battle of hearts and minds among the general population. I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Courts have upheld mandatory vaccinations. Allowing exceptions for a loud fringe isn't the same as popular support for exceptions. The majority of Americans still favor mandatory vaccinations and I think the antivax movement has reached its peak with the most recent outbreak.
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Feb 11, 2015 20:57
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Aye, one would presume the homeless kids would get the vaccinations they require as soon as is possible. That's a big difference from someone opting out because 'they don't agree with vaccines' because xyz.
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Feb 11, 2015 20:59
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Main Paineframe posted:Because for that to happen, you have to convince a significant number of anti-vaxxers to change their minds first. Non-medical vaccine exemptions didn't just spontaneously materialize out of thin air - they were created in response to public demand. "Just make a law saying vaccines are mandatory" isn't a viable solution when the anti-vaxxers have already demonstrated that they have the political power to overturn mandatory vaccine policies. Like it or not, the anti-vaxxers have a distinct advantage in the political arena right now; there's no way they can be shut out politically like that without first winning a battle of hearts and minds among the general population. It depends on what you want to accomplish. You will never convince hardcore antivaxxers. This is meant to dissuade the merely misinformed who may have been told by a friend to not bother vaccinating. Make it clear that vaccination is mandatory for coverage of preventable illnesses and you'll keep rates nice and high. As you said, this won't effect a naturopath, but it would effect a parent who might be on the fence. Have a change of heart at the last second and want your measles ridden son to see a doctor? No problem, your insurance just won't pay for it. Sorry dude, shunning the advice of doctors carries a serious price. Get your kids vaccinated and coverage returns.
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Feb 11, 2015 21:01
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QuarkJets posted:Have a change of heart at the last second and want your measles ridden son to see a doctor? No problem, your insurance just won't pay for it. Sorry dude, shunning the advice of doctors carries a serious price. Get your kids vaccinated and coverage returns. This is a bad idea for a few reasons. Kids should not be punished for their parents' stupidity. Kids with the measles are contagious, so the sooner they see a doctor, the better. Also, measles can kill or cause permanent injury.
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Feb 11, 2015 21:10
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Vienna Circlejerk posted:I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Courts have upheld mandatory vaccinations. Allowing exceptions for a loud fringe isn't the same as popular support for exceptions. The majority of Americans still favor mandatory vaccinations and I think the antivax movement has reached its peak with the most recent outbreak. The loud fringe matters a whole lot more than the bulk of people who will say they favor vaccines if asked. How loud a demographic is matters just as much as how numerous they are, and the fact that anti-vaxxers were able to win publicly-available exemptions despite the fact that they're a minority should speak volumes about the disproportionate political power they hold. It's hard to make vaccines mandatory for everyone when anyone can claim an opinion-based exemption. QuarkJets posted:It depends on what you want to accomplish. You will never convince hardcore antivaxxers. This is meant to dissuade the merely misinformed who may have been told by a friend to not bother vaccinating. Make it clear that vaccination is mandatory for coverage of preventable illnesses and you'll keep rates nice and high. As you said, this won't effect a naturopath, but it would effect a parent who might be on the fence. This doesn't incentivize people to vaccinate, it incentivizes them to not see doctors ever.
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Feb 11, 2015 21:21
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Main Paineframe posted:Because for that to happen, you have to convince a significant number of anti-vaxxers to change their minds first. Non-medical vaccine exemptions didn't just spontaneously materialize out of thin air - they were created in response to public demand. "Just make a law saying vaccines are mandatory" isn't a viable solution when the anti-vaxxers have already demonstrated that they have the political power to overturn mandatory vaccine policies. Like it or not, the anti-vaxxers have a distinct advantage in the political arena right now; there's no way they can be shut out politically like that without first winning a battle of hearts and minds among the general population. California and Washington state already have measures in the legislature right now to remove personal exemptions. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that they're not the only ones. Just because it won't face issues from a vocal minority doesn't mean that it shouldn't be advocated for or at least discussed. The overton window shift from "guys, let's all be really nice but respect the decisions of everyone else because their hearts are in the right place" to "vaccines are too important to our public health to let a bunch of idiots harm innocent people" alone would help a great deal here. Look, we as a society already have strict laws against harming, abusing or denying children access to basic healthcare. We already have laws against "making choices for ourselves" that end up increasing risk or causing harm to others - drunk driving comes to mind. What I'm calling for - removal of non-medical exemptions and requirements for daycares - isn't crazy and in the end doesn't require having to sit down with every young set of parents who read something on the internet and now has "concerns". Solkanar512 fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Feb 11, 2015 |
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Feb 11, 2015 21:37
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Main Paineframe posted:The loud fringe matters a whole lot more than the bulk of people who will say they favor vaccines if asked. How loud a demographic is matters just as much as how numerous they are, and the fact that anti-vaxxers were able to win publicly-available exemptions despite the fact that they're a minority should speak volumes about the disproportionate political power they hold. It's hard to make vaccines mandatory for everyone when anyone can claim an opinion-based exemption. Most of these laws were made before antivax was a thing and most people didn't care if a few religious kooks didn't get vaccinated because there were too few to affect herd immunity. Most people weren't even aware of there being an issue because there was, in the popular consciousness, no reason why someone who wasn't a Christian Scientist or whatever wouldn't get vaccinated. So it's not like the fringe got an exception in spite of popular sentiment; it got an exception because most people didn't care. Now there are outbreaks of diseases people thought were gone in the news, so ordinary people are starting to have opinions about vaccination exemptions.
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Feb 11, 2015 21:52
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Vienna Circlejerk posted:I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Courts have upheld mandatory vaccinations. Allowing exceptions for a loud fringe isn't the same as popular support for exceptions. The majority of Americans still favor mandatory vaccinations and I think the antivax movement has reached its peak with the most recent outbreak. MAJORITY RULES WITH MINORITY RIGHTS* The problem is that we've seen that this particular fringe is made up of people who have enough money and time to actually influence things. It's another difference; the poor are too busy not starving to death or working a thousand hours a week. * If I'm in the majority then it's majority rule. If I'm in the minority then it's minority rights. gently caress you.
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Feb 11, 2015 22:45
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Main Paineframe posted:This doesn't incentivize people to vaccinate, it incentivizes them to not see doctors ever. That's the whole point, but only if they don't vaccinate, and only for diseases that are preventable by vaccination. That's by design. I don't want unvaccinated Billy bringing his Measles infection into a pediatrician's office and potentially infecting a bunch of babies who are too young to be vaccinated. Parents who want these diseases to be covered by insurance will have to make a choice between coverage or no vaccination. For parents that are on the fence and considering not vaccinating, this will push them toward vaccination. For hardcore antivaxxers, they're often not bringing their kids to doctors anyway, so there's no change. For those that do use a doctor and ignore the advice to vaccinate, treatment will cost extra Many pediatricians already turn away unvaccinated children. This is a good thing. It sucks for those kids, but beyond just calling in CPS what the gently caress else can you do? http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...s_failures.html
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Feb 11, 2015 23:08
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ToxicSlurpee posted:MAJORITY RULES WITH MINORITY RIGHTS* I think they've only been able to influence things in the absence of any sort of broader public awareness or concern. And I'd even say they haven't influenced things so much as just exploited existing loopholes which were created in a time when it was unimaginable that there would be a mass movement against vaccination sufficient to weaken herd immunity.
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Feb 11, 2015 23:52
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Vienna Circlejerk posted:This is a bad idea for a few reasons. Kids should not be punished for their parents' stupidity. Kids with the measles are contagious, so the sooner they see a doctor, the better. Also, measles can kill or cause permanent injury. Kids with measles are contagious, that's true, but medical treatment doesn't make the measles go away any faster.
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Feb 12, 2015 00:07
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thrakkorzog posted:There's usually a much lower burden of proof in civil courts than in criminal courts. That said, It's still an untapped potential goldmine for Is there some statute of limitations on this kind of thing? Would it be too late for an 18 year old to sue for something that was done to them when they were 4? Cuz if not, I can't loving wait to watch this happen.
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Feb 12, 2015 00:54
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Where I live, vaccinations are mandatory by law. Failing to get your kid vaccinated without a good reason means a 200-500e fine every 6 months for each parent, so up to 2000e per year. It works. Other countries in Europe have measles outbreaks, we have >90% vaccination rate and don't have them. Only the most hardcore cases of antivax will actually pay for the privilege of not vaccinating.
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Feb 12, 2015 11:40
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Main Paineframe posted:The loud fringe matters a whole lot more than the bulk of people who will say they favor vaccines if asked. How loud a demographic is matters just as much as how numerous they are, and the fact that anti-vaxxers were able to win publicly-available exemptions despite the fact that they're a minority should speak volumes about the disproportionate political power they hold. It's hard to make vaccines mandatory for everyone when anyone can claim an opinion-based exemption. Main Painframe has a point. When you have a single issue fringe group, as a politician it's easier just to not piss them off. Regular voters usually have a wide range of issues they care about it. Probably the clearest example is the ethanol mandate for gasoline. Ending the use of corn methanol in gasoline is probably one of the most bi-partisan issues out there. Libertarians hate corn methanol because government regulations are bad and it distorts the market. The Greens hate it because farmers are trying to farm on land that shouldn't be farmland, like wetlands. Fiscal conservatives hate it because they see it as a free check from the government. And Socialists hate it because it is driving up the cost of corn as a staple food for third world countries, because rich people are basically pouring food into their cars. There is literally no serious political theory that thinks paying farmers to grow corn for fuel is a good idea. But nobody wants to vote to end the program, because no politician is willing to hang a noose around their political careers by pissing off those farmers who really like those government checks, and form the backbone of the Iowa caucus. No politician wants to start their presidential campaign with a 0.0 approval rating. thrakkorzog fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Feb 12, 2015 |
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Feb 12, 2015 12:04
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Solkanar512 posted:Hey Actus, can people who purposefully hold or have their children attend Measles Parties be enough to cross some sort of legal line? I think there's a lot more legal room there. You've gone from simply not taking adequate precautions to affirmatively exposing your kid to a potentially fatal disease.
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Feb 12, 2015 17:28
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Vienna Circlejerk posted:This is a bad idea for a few reasons. Kids should not be punished for their parents' stupidity. Kids with the measles are contagious, so the sooner they see a doctor, the better. Also, measles can kill or cause permanent injury. The kid will still be seen. Just at a higher cost. Insurance companies incentivize behavior all the time. For example I lose my nice low rate if I don't get an annual physical and cholesterol test, the logic being that preventative care and early diagnosis saves my insurance company money in the long run because they can put me on cholesterol meds rather than be on the hook for heart surgery, or not have to worry about me showing up out of the blue with stage 4 cancer. I don't see why a higher rate for anti vaxers is any different.
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Feb 12, 2015 17:34
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ActusRhesus posted:The kid will still be seen. Just at a higher cost. Insurance companies incentivize behavior all the time. For example I lose my nice low rate if I don't get an annual physical and cholesterol test, the logic being that preventative care and early diagnosis saves my insurance company money in the long run because they can put me on cholesterol meds rather than be on the hook for heart surgery, or not have to worry about me showing up out of the blue with stage 4 cancer. I don't see why a higher rate for anti vaxers is any different.
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Feb 12, 2015 18:04
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Welp.quote:Tens of thousands of commuters may have been exposed to measles after an infectious LinkedIn employee – apparently en route from vaccination-averse Silicon Valley – traveled by train into and out of San Francisco last week, county health officials said on Wednesday.
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Feb 12, 2015 18:13
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"You see, fellow coworkers, measles is like a computer virus, but for people..."
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Feb 12, 2015 18:28
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I don't think that's the right way to ensure your resume goes viral
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Feb 12, 2015 18:34
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