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Landmark turned bad because the old EQ player dead weight kept steering the game away from what it was supposed to be: a better Minecraft.
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Feb 12, 2015 06:02
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Yeah! A better, unplayably laggy Minecraft, without the charm, endless world, or random acts of carnage, or players of Minecraft. Oh. No, wait, gently caress this game.
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Feb 12, 2015 06:18
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I've been waiting for eqnext for a long time and haven't really followed (i bought landmark but never played it) What's the situation now, because I honestly don't understand the whole thing and people are throwing around terms like vapourware
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Feb 12, 2015 06:24
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Yeah they failed pretty hard haha. I'd just as soon cut off my own dick than play landmark with old disabled housewives & beta bitches from eq1. Give me minecraft players any day.
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Feb 12, 2015 06:46
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Kazak_Hstan posted:There never was and never will be an EQ Next. They spent their entire budget on sand art and a minecraft mod, and it duped thousands of people into paying close to a hundred dollars to play a beta for a game other than the one they actually want. JohnSmedley is a master scammer, this non-existant and never will be game should be #1 in the hearts of goons everywhere. The Vision™ will live forever.
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Feb 12, 2015 07:09
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Jeff Buttler the Creative Director for EQNext, who previously worked on smash hits like Vanguard, Kingdoms of Amalur and Copernicus, is gone as well... Oh well, at least I got my money's worth of schadenfreude from following this slow motion trainwreck. It's pretty funny that SOE named Landmark's first year anniversary 'Year Zero' only to have it closely followed by an actual purge of the company. It was also kinda funny when SOE got the Yogscast guys to do a paid promotion for Landmark and one of them accidentally let slip that nobody actually plays this game, but didn't bother to edit that out or anything.
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Feb 12, 2015 12:32
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Biowarfare posted:I've been waiting for eqnext for a long time and haven't really followed (i bought landmark but never played it) Nobody plays Landmark and Landmark is the foundation EQNext was going to be built upon, as well as providing a much needed additional revenue stream for their development. Things you can see in Landmark right now: like how the multiple layered voxel world works, how terrain destructability works, how characters move around and how combat with mobs and other players works was going to provide the basis of how this would all work in EQNext. The things that separate Landmark from EQNext is that players are allowed to build anything in Landmark, while the world of Norrath and its content in EQNext would be curated by SOE. EQNext would also have more races, more mobs, more classes, as well as a system called Storybricks to provide the player with dynamic quests. SOE was recently sold by Sony and SOE's new owner is an investment group owned by a Russian oligarch. Why would the new owner waste money on developing EQNext when Landmark's distinct lack of success is a pretty good indication that EQNext would get an equally apathetic response? Sony certainly didn't think EQNext would be a long term money maker. Maybe the new owner will get the remnants of SOE to slap together whatever little EQNext content they have for a final cash grab.
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Feb 12, 2015 12:38
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Biowarfare posted:I've been waiting for eqnext for a long time and haven't really followed (i bought landmark but never played it) Daybreak got rid of some of their key people working on the game. So it's future I think is up in the air. There's been no news about the title for a long time now as well. I think it really is vaporware.
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Feb 12, 2015 14:53
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tbh the only reason I bought it was because I assumed in the next few months there would be some kind of alpha of next for landmark users, I don't know what I was snorting then, never had interest in building for the sake of building
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Feb 12, 2015 16:06
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I thought SOE would be just as capable at creating a fun and enjoyable videogame, as a single Swedish man who wrote spaghetti code and made terrible programmer art was. I was proven to be very wrong by the drawn-out and mystifying trainwreck of Landmark's development. Watching their Twitch streams as the game was floundering and as the playerbase vanished and wondering just what the heck they were thinking was pretty entertaining. Like watching people rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic or something like that. One of the lead devs saying "Don't worry, the takeover is just business as usual. Like changing your last name when you get married", only to promptly get the sack was also pretty funny.
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Feb 12, 2015 16:54
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Those leads probably got layed off because of the slow development of the game. I theorize that when the firm who purchased them asked to see something concrete from Everquest Next, they weren't impressed with the state of it given the development time, so they axed the people at the top, who are responsible for that state, and replaced them with people who can get things done in a timely manner. Sucks all those people who got layed off, though. So either the game will be vaporware or we'll start seeing actual updates on Everquest Next in a timely fashion.
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Feb 12, 2015 17:06
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Sancho posted:Landmark turned bad because the old EQ player dead weight kept steering the game away from what it was supposed to be: a better Minecraft. How inconsiderate of the people that bought Everquest Landmark wanting to have a game that held some elements of Everquest.
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Feb 12, 2015 19:19
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SOE didn't listen to much player feedback AFAIK. The only old school MMO aspects in Landmark I can think of is the absurd amount of resources you need to grind for crafting things. Which is probably primarily meant to encourage people to use the cash shop. I'm fairly certain that Landmark is an unappealing game for a lot of people because the devs don't understand what made either Everquest or Minecraft successful. Terry Michaels who ATM is still Landmark's Senior Producer has jokingly said on their live streams that he doesn't really play the actual game and that he can't use the tools to build anything. He's more of an "explorer" who logs in to have a look around at what other people are doing. He also had no idea what a viewer was talking about when they asked him whether Landmark would ever have any survival aspects like a hunger bar.
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Feb 12, 2015 19:55
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DevNull posted:How inconsiderate of the people that bought Everquest Landmark wanting to have a game that held some elements of Everquest. Agree it's pretty rude
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Feb 13, 2015 00:03
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True believers, keep the faith and hang on to your wallets. The Smedmeister has spoken: As we speak You might think Landmark is a pretty bad game but despite the fact EQNext will have the same kind of lagtastic voxel world, the same sorry excuse for an action combat system, the same boring copy & paste caverns, the same crafting grindfest, and the same everything else, it's going to be completely different somehow and thus extremely good poo poo. I think it's because EQNext will have elves.
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Feb 13, 2015 10:01
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I thought with some posts finally in this thread there might be something new happening to this game I heard about a year or two ago, oops.itsnice2bnice posted:I thought SOE would be just as capable at creating a fun and enjoyable videogame, as a single Swedish man who wrote spaghetti code and made terrible programmer art was. I was proven to be very wrong by the drawn-out and mystifying trainwreck of Landmark's development. This is confusing to me as well, their workload structure must be a complete mess if the updates to a bare-bones minecraft clone are so glacial, I realize it's not quite the same as minecrafts simple graphics, shapes and concepts, but surely it would take less then a year for them to only add the equivalent of minecrafts zombie and skeleton with almost the exact same combat system from the looks of it. Also sad to hear they went with the ultra grind path for building materials, instead of what minecraft did with public early alpha little creative mode servers, without even having to pay for minecraft.
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Feb 13, 2015 10:21
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I just want to see this dynamic quest/world system they were pimping hard 2 years ago. After playing Shadow of Mordor, I imagine it's possible, but I also imagine most of it is still on paper. Prove me wrong Smedley.
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Feb 13, 2015 16:35
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DevNull posted:How inconsiderate of the people that bought Everquest Landmark wanting to have a game that held some elements of Everquest. The advertising for this game at first was incredibly misleading. SoE did an awful job, and in some cases I would argue was unethical about what Landmark was exactly.
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Feb 13, 2015 16:53
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I said come in! posted:The advertising for this game at first was incredibly misleading. SoE did an awful job, and in some cases I would argue was unethical about what Landmark was exactly. Agreed. I remember two years ago being under the impression that Landmark would be some neat building tools with a little bit of exploration, but it was all a dick tease for the awesomeness of EQ Next. Maybe if I were lucky, a dumb house I built in Landmark would show up in EQ Next as part of Kelethin or something. Instead, we got poo poo on.
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Feb 13, 2015 18:22
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It did a great job at suckering both Everquest and Minecraft fans into buying a terrible game neither group enjoyed. Speaking of marketing, professional self-promoter Omeed still streams on Twitch! I just listened to yesterday's stream and he didn't think the confusion around the EQNext: Landmark naming was a problem BTW. Omeed also said SOE's sale was widely known within the company for ages and it played a part in why he left. In hindsight it's baffling to think that the last couple of months the Landmark devs were actually putting in their best effort to look useful in order to avoid being made redundant. He thinks it's unlikely the new owners could sell the EverQuest IP itself, but he's confident EQNext will still be released. Although their ambitions for the game would have be drastically reduced in scope. I'm sure they'll still be able rake in plenty of cash from people who are still fooling themselves into buying the hype.
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Feb 13, 2015 20:10
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I said come in! posted:The advertising for this game at first was incredibly misleading. SoE did an awful job, and in some cases I would argue was unethical about what Landmark was exactly. I was over this poo poo when Smedley hyped the release by saying "you'll have a playable version - and I am not talking about a beta," making everyone think eqnext was close, then revealing landmark. Technically true statement, but gently caress him. I want to try that in the workplace; "you're all getting something really nice as a bonus, and I'm not talking about fifty bucks" . . . "surprise! it's a nickel gently caress you!!"
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Feb 13, 2015 20:59
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Ra Ra Rasputin posted:This is confusing to me as well, their workload structure must be a complete mess if the updates to a bare-bones minecraft clone are so glacial, I realize it's not quite the same as minecrafts simple graphics, shapes and concepts, but surely it would take less then a year for them to only add the equivalent of minecrafts zombie and skeleton with almost the exact same combat system from the looks of it. Basically there's a huge difference between editable blocks world and editable rolling voxel landscapes. This is a good reason why nobody should attempt the latter, ever.
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Feb 14, 2015 10:39
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Server is experiencing giant lag spikes. 20-30 second delay from pressing enter and text popping in General. I couldn't stand it and logged. People were saying DDOS. The launcher also turns into a black screen and the game won't load. I had to go into the launcher cache and delete everything and it worked. What the gently caress...
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Feb 14, 2015 17:19
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30.5 Days posted:Basically there's a huge difference between editable blocks world and editable rolling voxel landscapes. This is a good reason why nobody should attempt the latter, ever. What exactly is the different between "voxels" and "the way other games are made"?
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Feb 16, 2015 18:37
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Kazak_Hstan posted:What exactly is the different between "voxels" and "the way other games are made"? edit: ignore me. I misunderstood the question.
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Feb 16, 2015 19:09
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I wasn't responding to a particular question, I'm genuinely curious. I don't know.
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Feb 16, 2015 19:12
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Kazak_Hstan posted:What exactly is the different between "voxels" and "the way other games are made"? I'm not sure on what level you're asking the question but let's say like you're talking about the way, let's say, terrain is usually drawn. In the game world of warcraft, the version that was released in 2004, individual vertices are about 3 units apart (a character runs 8 units per second). It's seriously embarrassing that I know these things. Based on the fact that humans jog about 5km/h, you could say that in WoW, terrain is effectively a grid of vertices half a meter to a side. Now, vertices of terrain in a heightmap have a lot of data attached to them if you're not trying to optimize at all. You've got 12 bytes of position data, 12 bytes of normal data (which way "up" is on that terrain, for lighting), it's also got probably like 4 layers of textures and some baked-in shadow data (40 more bytes). There are cheats you can use to get this down (terrain meshes only tend to save the "z" position because the x and y are always in the same spot, I think wow did something clever with shadows), but let's just say 90 bytes per vertex total, which is a lot. This means that a square kilometer of full-resolution terrain, ready to be sent to your video card, is 360MB. 4MB for each byte of vertex data. So let's say you have a square kilometer of voxel data at half a meter resolution. Let's say that it's also half a kilometer tall (landmark's islands are half as tall as they are wide). Well, that's 4TB of voxel data PER BYTE OF VOXEL. It's very easy to get away with a byte per voxel (or maybe even half a byte!) but that's still just so, so much data. And then when you have the data, you have to convert it into vertex terrain so it can be drawn. And then you have to convert some portion of it again when something changes. That's why minecraft did the smart thing: 1 voxel per meter. one quarter of a kilometer high. Then you can have 2 bytes per voxel and still only use 512Mb per square kilometer. And the build limit used to be lower! 256Mb per square kilometer! If you think you're going to make a photorealistic, editable world in voxels, hahahahahaha. This is me laughing at you. The only game-related use of voxels other than minecraft I've seen be successful is using it to build terrain in a developer tool. That way you can have someone with a super-powerful machine edit things somewhat slowly, but when it comes time to send it to a user, you package it up as a mesh and send it to them.
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Feb 17, 2015 08:16
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^^^ what he said, but here's the tl;dr version.Kazak_Hstan posted:What exactly is the different between "voxels" and "the way other games are made"? Most games use polygons, which models the surface of an object but the spaces within are basically hollow. Voxels are a 3d grid, which can model the whole of an object, but have various drawbacks that made it unpopular for video game design.
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Feb 17, 2015 08:18
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Oh and landmark is quarter meter resolution because lol.
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Feb 17, 2015 08:18
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30.5 Days posted:I'm not sure on what level you're asking the question but let's say like you're talking about the way, let's say, terrain is usually drawn. In the game world of warcraft, the version that was released in 2004, individual vertices are about 3 units apart (a character runs 8 units per second). It's seriously embarrassing that I know these things. Based on the fact that humans jog about 5km/h, you could say that in WoW, terrain is effectively a grid of vertices half a meter to a side. It's worth noting that all the storage requirements you described are worst-case. You can do smart things to dramatically increase resolution while reducing requirements. Voxel Quest is one example, but I'm sure the Voxel Farm people are doing this as well. edit: Now I see that you're just talking about rendering, which is even easier. There are plenty of methods you can use to reduce the data that you have to send to the graphics card, and building a good voxel renderer is primarily implementing a bunch of these approaches. Straight up sending every voxel in the camera's perspective to the graphics card is silly and unrealistic. a slime fucked around with this message at 14:03 on Feb 17, 2015 |
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Feb 17, 2015 13:59
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a slime posted:It's worth noting that all the storage requirements you described are worst-case. You can do smart things to dramatically increase resolution while reducing requirements. Voxel Quest is one example, but I'm sure the Voxel Farm people are doing this as well. Yeah, so were the storage requirements for heightmaps!! In fact, they were well past worst-case scenario. Saying "well sure a cube kilometer of world in landmark costs more than 15,000x as much per unit-byte as a cube kilometer of space in WoW, but you know you can really cut that down some!" is so far past missing the point, jesus christ. EDIT: Yeah I know there are a lot of great ways to triangulate voxels. You know what else is a great way to triangulate? Having triangles in the first place. "This totally unnecessary step can be quite fast if you do it right", jesus.
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Feb 17, 2015 19:59
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Also a quick note that Voxel Farm is the tech behind Landmark. So, you know. Everyone in this thread can judge how well they've pulled that off.
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Feb 17, 2015 20:04
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DevNull posted:How inconsiderate of the people that bought Everquest Landmark wanting to have a game that held some elements of Everquest. 
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Feb 18, 2015 18:16
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I drank the Kool-Aid for this dumb game. Too bad it seems like it came from Jonestown rather than Norrath.
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Feb 18, 2015 21:22
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So what happened? I'd literally never even heard of this game until people started saying that SOE was killing it, and when I go back to the first posts in this thread it's full of people apparently having fun and posting screenshots of silly frog towers and Castle Greyskull, and then the posts just stopped for like six months, followed by people bitching. Why did the game suck so much?
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Feb 19, 2015 01:08
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:So what happened? It wasn't a traditional game but it wasn't a complete sandbox either, unless you interpret sandbox to mean like building with sand. Then it was exactly a sandbox.
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Feb 19, 2015 01:11
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There will be a Q&A stream about the future of EverQuest Next and Landmark on http://www.twitch.tv/landmarkgame this Friday at 14:00 PST. Based on the last Landmark Live it might be worth a watch just to see how uncomfortable and nervous the people streaming look. You can also talk with one of the lead devs about the important topic of "Ogres, Orcs, and Goblins" here: http://www.reddit.com/r/EQNext/comments/2w9n3m/ogres_orcs_and_goblins/
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Feb 19, 2015 10:03
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:So what happened? If you wanted to build anything nice, you had to take advantage of the most obtuse voxel bugs, which later became codified into an instruction book by the devs. You needed to build or copy a wall full of weird poo poo and you had to know how to use them because they didn't act in any rational way. Want a handrail for your deck? Make a microvoxel by smoothing a single voxel. Copy the voxel and place them in a row. If you place a microvoxel perpendicular to multiple microvoxels, it would create a flange between them. If you didn't want that flange, you had to place another microvoxel at the junction. Want some rods to connect that rail to the floor? Ok cool, just keep adding microvoxels until it touches the floor and whoops the floor got raised. Paste another voxel at the floor and it fixes itself. Oh wait, did you put that in the wrong spot? Ok just erase the microvoxel and what the gently caress the floor looks like poo poo again what the gently caress why isn't this floor smoothing out oh god it's leaving behind artifacts if I delete it god help And at the end of the day, very few people managed to make anything that didn't look like a lumpy turd. Oh yes, and the grind. Mining anything without a top tier (or second to top) pick is like digging a river with a small garden shovel. And now that beating up monsters is needed to get a special resource, you're looking at almost an hour just to get one special mining pick resource... just so you can craft the first tier of pick. It takes 8 for the top tier. Hope you have all day!
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Feb 19, 2015 10:14
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Is this still accurate?
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Feb 19, 2015 14:20
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Jackard posted:Is this still accurate? No. But it was at the time?
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Feb 19, 2015 14:57
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