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Tolkien never felt satisfied with his own orcs mainly because they clashed rather strongly with his own religious views.
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Feb 13, 2015 12:34
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Tolkien was very angry that the orcs did not respect nature, or the Mother Goddess, because of his strong Wiccan beliefs.
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Feb 13, 2015 14:47
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Kai Tave posted:It's really not that hard. Any reason for fighting and/or killing someone is "better" (better as a noble justification, better as "I had no choice," better as a villainous motive, better as more interesting, better for whatever value of better you're looking for) than "I'm killing them because they all have Chaotic Evil stamped on their souls, even the babies but only after I've raised them to a life of Lawful Good so they can go to heaven, it's okay, I can do this because I have Lawful Good on my character sheet and there's nothing hosed up or stupid about this." I'd go further than that, and say that I'm tired of reasons for fighting that still stem from having written all your enemies as being undeserving of consideration. Forgotten Realms drow are a good example; their society is so monolithically evil, both top-down and bottom-up, that there's no way to deal with them except from a position of total war. Even the nation of half-drow is really just a front for the drow, which is a shame because that could have been cool.
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Feb 13, 2015 15:24
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Elfgames posted:Yeah that's true but i tend to associate the whole Zombies thing with racist rednecks. ProfessorCirno posted:Er, no, because the main thing about zombies is that they're still "people" to a certain extent. The terrible part of zombie fiction comes from all the creeps who just really want to gun down people in the city and barely go "OK BUT THEY'RE ZOMBIES" as their excuse. It's this poo poo. "They look like us but they're not like us" is not actually a thing that precludes zombies from standing in for an Other, unfortunately. But you're also hitting on something that I find a lot more interesting. A lot of zombie fiction -- particularly the more modern stuff (The Walking Dead adaptations do not count since it's all still anchored to a comic series that began in 2003) uses them as a metaphor for the abstract concept of death. Or for fear of death, to be more specific -- I mean, technically even with the maybe-this-is-slightly-racist stuff they're a fear metaphor, it's just a fear that should probably be examined a little more closely. Quite a few of the books I've read in recent years have even been like... sort of a rejection of the zombie narratives that dominated most of the early-mid 2000s. Like, in one of the Mira Grant zombie novels, there's a part where a character reflects on how the official military protocol in an outbreak is to stay in a small group, ignore everyone else and never stop to help the wounded and all of this survivalist poo poo. The character then concludes "and if I ever met anyone who actually followed those regulations, I'd shoot the bastard myself." Basically there's just a much greater diversity of depictions than people who have decided they don't like anything that has this particular kind of monster in it are usually willing to credit. Some of it is awful, some of it is less so. Tollymain posted:i never understood why in a magical setting animating a dead body requires a different magic than animating some other body-shaped thing
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Feb 13, 2015 16:54
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Gazetteer posted:The character then concludes "and if I ever met anyone who actually followed those regulations, I'd shoot the bastard myself." quote:Well, most fantasy settings do not regard the human body as an object like any other. People are special, lives have significance that, say, a chair does not have. It's basically just that magic is not physics and authors philosophically/emotionally are not thinking of corpses as being the same as a "body shaped thing." A lot of the time reanimating something that used to have a soul involves trapping the soul inside the body or otherwise enslaving it. This is the most common excuse for why necromancers are Bad People We Don't Like, at least. One thing about necromancy that's boring and lame is how they're always enslaving bodies and souls. They're like the Orcs of magic users. What if Necromancy and Necromancers raised bodies back to life, and put their soul back in them, but refused to do it to unwilling souls? What if they were 'good guys'? Like you have an odd "family tradition" where you use the preserved remains and spirits of departed relatives who volunteer to serve the family in death for a time, your Great Aunt Mary animating a golem and fighting off a troll, but also taking you to task for being too thin and not eating enough. So you'd have 'good' undead and 'bad' undead. Sort of like publicopinion's idea about spirits animating a cool enough body on their own. What if zombies and other evil dead were caused by dark spirits stealing the bodies of townsfolk, or merging multiple corpses of various animal, monsters, and people into shambling abominations? Then it's up to the Necromancer to banish those spirits and lay those bodies to proper rest with the help of his family, some of whom were powerful Necromancers in their own time.
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Feb 13, 2015 18:40
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Those sort of good guy necromancers and undead are in the Sacrred Lands setting by White Wolf and Tomb Kings in Warhammer Fantasy.
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Feb 13, 2015 18:47
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Kai Tave posted:Of course Pathfinder is also the game full of fantasy racist stereotypes like conniving, thieving Gypsies and spearchucking not-Africans, ridiculous romance subsystems, and hillbilly rape-ogres. Yes, I've heard the whole "they're moving past that now" thing but you take the bad with the good, and their "moving past that" doesn't seem to involve a lot of acknowledging and/or refuting the dumb poo poo they've done in the past so much as just quietly hoping people quit bringing it up. I wish I know which pathfinder book "ANALAGOUS SETTINGS" guy worked on because that was a pro paizo freelancer meltdown quote:What if Necromancy and Necromancers raised bodies back to life, and put their soul back in them, but refused to do it to unwilling souls? What if they were 'good guys'? I've always liked GW2's necromancers - whose minions are flesh constructs who were "never alive" and don't have souls. They are basically really hardcore flesh golem creators. One of the main thematic differences between good necromancers and evil ones / Zhaitan in GW2 is that Zhaitan brings back zombies that still look like dead people, while the good necromancer constructions all look like something else but made of organs, having no resemblance to whatever the flesh belonged to in it's former life. edit: You could probably get good mileage out of a Necromancer society that refused to work with souls and only used flesh because they saw the spirit as taboo, and an opposing necromancer society that only works with souls and ghosts because the body deserves to rest in a place of honor.
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Feb 13, 2015 19:31
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PresidentBeard posted:Those sort of good guy necromancers and undead are in the Sacrred Lands setting by White Wolf and Tomb Kings in Warhammer Fantasy. Coincidentally, the Tomb Kings are super cool and neat. "Whole nation killed by rear end in a top hat father of Necromancy but that get up with their own will and personality still." is great.
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Feb 13, 2015 19:33
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So like communing with benevolent ancestor spirits? See verbally that feels more like "shamanism" than "necromancy". I know definable subtypes of magic are super arbitrary to begin with, but to me necromancy always implied the creation of tortured ghosts and zombies and whatever from unwilling subjects while other types of magic communicates with afterlife stuff that exists naturally. This is totally changeable though and to this day I think Planescape: Torment had the best treatment of the undead. Some zombies and skeletons are tied to their original souls and are functionally sapient beings, while most of them are just animated like golems and are only tenuously connected to their original spirits. The sapient ones even form a society in the catacombs to defend the tombs from parasites, and don't really have a problem with you attacking the non-sentient ones in self-defence. Of course, the undead stop being a relevant enemy past, like, level 2 in that game so it doesn't come up very often.
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Feb 13, 2015 19:38
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Strictly speaking, necromancy originally did broadly refer to communication with the dead, as "-mancy" is the suffix pertaining to divination/communing.
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Feb 13, 2015 19:44
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Bendigeidfran posted:So like communing with benevolent ancestor spirits? See verbally that feels more like "shamanism" than "necromancy". I know definable subtypes of magic are super arbitrary to begin with, but to me necromancy always implied the creation of tortured ghosts and zombies and whatever from unwilling subjects while other types of magic communicates with afterlife stuff that exists naturally. See, and I always viewed Shaman magic as specifically nature spirits, and occasionally talking to ancestors for guidance. like...you can call a bear spirit to inhabit your body to give you strength, or a wolf spirit for cunning, or uncle bob the famous wise man when you need to figure out these runes, etc. Whereas Necromancy is just 'stuff to do with death and the dead' imo, which does include ghosts (even ghosts of benevolent family members or close friends), but it's pretty distinct. I really like the flesh construct thing mormon star wars brought up. Or I guess I look at it like Shamans are nature necromancers, and Necromancers are death shamans, if that makes any sense.
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Feb 13, 2015 19:48
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Night10194 posted:Coincidentally, the Tomb Kings are super cool and neat. "Whole nation killed by rear end in a top hat father of Necromancy but that get up with their own will and personality still." is great. Too bad they totally got chumped in the End Times bullshit. Settra was the only one even given a decent scene of defiance.
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Feb 13, 2015 19:48
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PresidentBeard posted:Too bad they totally got chumped in the End Times bullshit. Settra was the only one even given a decent scene of defiance. The End Times is basically GW throwing their rattle out of the pram about how Storm of Chaos went. In the alternate future a friend of mine wrote, in the Warhammer equivalent of the early 20th century, archeologists start going to Khemri to do the whole 'early 20th century graverobbing' style of early archeology, only to find the mummies and stuff going "AHEM!" and pointing to the 'No looting rule enforced by scarab curse' sign and instead start just asking the mummies about how life was back in ancient Khemri. Stories of the ancient world and old craftsmanship techniques become the lands' biggest exports. 
Night10194 fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Feb 13, 2015 |
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Feb 13, 2015 19:50
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I've been thinking about non-evil necromancy for the 13th campaign I'm working on, Which is -partly- why I'm working up a set of alternate icons, because "Lich King" kind of implies evil necromancy. Instead, there's a spirit known as "The Lord of the Crossroads, who appears as the last person to die at a crossroads on the old imperial roads, which were also used as places for executions. Since the empire's been gone for years, this largely means they show up as a pretty chill skeleton, often in a top hat. The Lord's sort of vaguely in charge of things on the boundary, including the boundary between life and death, and likes to make deals. One of the most common deals is to teach someone the secrets of necromancy. One of the most common prices for the deals they make is "A period of indentured service after death, usually no more than a few years." So the undead that necromancers summon are people who volunteered for it in exchange for -something- that benefited them.
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Feb 13, 2015 19:53
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unseenlibrarian posted:I've been thinking about non-evil necromancy for the 13th campaign I'm working on, Which is -partly- why I'm working up a set of alternate icons, because "Lich King" kind of implies evil necromancy. A little bit Legba, a little bit Samedi. I like that.
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Feb 13, 2015 19:56
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unseenlibrarian posted:I've been thinking about non-evil necromancy for the 13th campaign I'm working on, Which is -partly- why I'm working up a set of alternate icons, because "Lich King" kind of implies evil necromancy. Alternatively, you could make the Lich King a neutral icon like the Dwarf Lord or the Elf Queen and introduce his conflict with various factions being that he claims all undead as subjects. If a necromancer working for the Diabolist raises a zombie, the Lich King knows that it belongs to him. If one of The Three becomes an undead dracolich, the Lich King will demand that dragon bow to him, the lord of the dead. He claims places of death as his territory, so what does it mean when the Lich King opens an embassy in your local graveyard?
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Feb 13, 2015 20:02
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Ars Magica treats the animation of corpse as just a basic thing you can do if you learn a mix of Rego (control) and Corpus (human body magic), so healers and necromancers have a lot of overlap. You can't animate anything that had a consecrated burial, and souls don't even begin to get involved unless you toss Iin Mentem - and even then, again, anyone who had a consecrated burial or went to Heaven can't be summoned as a ghost. As a result, necromancers often hunt down old pagan burial grounds or old battlefields.
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Feb 13, 2015 20:03
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One neat Lich King interpretation from the early 13th Age thread I remember is where the Lich King rules over a kingdom of relatively happy and peaceful subjects. People lived their full and natural lives and once they died, they joined their ancestors as undead protectors against outside forces or workers for certain jobs where being undead is advantageous.
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Feb 13, 2015 20:14
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BrainParasite posted:That's what Sidhe said. okay i think we have a winner (is that the word? are there winners here) though... Carrasco posted:Fae nobles have a really insidheous influence. i GUESS you get the Little Leanan Sidhe Urban Achievers Award for 'seelie what i did there' because oh my god anyways you two dorks should add me on steam and bug me there because I don't have PMs and the consolation prize is an inventory gift
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Feb 13, 2015 21:10
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unseenlibrarian posted:I've been thinking about non-evil necromancy for the 13th campaign I'm working on, Which is -partly- why I'm working up a set of alternate icons, because "Lich King" kind of implies evil necromancy. My solution to this sorta thing has always been "guess you have a reason to overthrow the Lich King and become the new Icon of undeath, eh?"
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Feb 13, 2015 22:11
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(Mostly I just wanted to write all my own icons, but that was the initial impetus.)
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Feb 13, 2015 22:22
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ProfessorCirno posted:My solution to this sorta thing has always been "guess you have a reason to overthrow the Lich King and become the new Icon of undeath, eh?" That sounds like a pretty nito idea.
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Feb 13, 2015 22:23
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Nancy_Noxious posted:I was (once again trying) to read the tabletop sub-forum of the Intangibility Forums and (once again) I gave up. so wait, what ruleset do you like
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Feb 13, 2015 22:44
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I'm just sad that people I once considered "to be on my side" are against modern design in D&D-like games. I'm also sad that (so far) the only "heirs" to the 4E way of doing D&D are 13th Age (great production values, regressive in many ways) and now Strike! (glorious design with production values I mildly dislike and that will likely prevent my current group from giving it a try). Meanwhile the 3E regressives got not only Pathfinder (great support/production values) and now D&D itself — in the guise of a streamlined and cleaned-up version of 3.5.
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anyway the 9 alignments are the coolest thing to ever hapen to rpgs and any d&d/d20 system that doesn't have them is unforgivable
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Feb 13, 2015 22:46
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A Major Fucker posted:anyway the 9 alignments are the coolest thing to ever hapen to rpgs and any d&d/d20 system that doesn't have them is unforgivable You have a very appropriate username. Sigil/Planescape made them work. Outside of that, they're godawful.
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Feb 13, 2015 22:55
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A Major Fucker posted:anyway the 9 alignments are the coolest thing to ever hapen to rpgs and any d&d/d20 system that doesn't have them is unforgivable Yeah...no.
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Feb 13, 2015 22:58
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A Major Fucker posted:anyway the 9 alignments are the coolest thing to ever hapen to rpgs and any d&d/d20 system that doesn't have them is unforgivable whats ur alignment
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Feb 13, 2015 22:59
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I'm Chaotic Neutral, the Cool Alignment That Says I Do What I Want
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Feb 13, 2015 23:01
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Impermanent posted:I'm Chaotic Neutral, the Cool Alignment That Says I Do What I Want I'm chaotic good, because gently caress the man
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Feb 13, 2015 23:06
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Meta post, lame pun.
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Feb 13, 2015 23:07
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Really Pants posted:whats ur alignment is "a waddle dee but with one of those cute poofy chef's hats" an alignment
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Feb 13, 2015 23:08
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Ningyou posted:is "a waddle dee but with one of those cute poofy chef's hats" an alignment So, Chef Waddle Dee? Dawwww...  But then who would be Kirby-aligned?
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Feb 13, 2015 23:09
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let's see, like on the one hand? Kirby is a swell, uh...androgyne puffball? good heart, good intentions. on the other hand, kirby literally consumes all who stand in kirby's way basically what i'm saying is chaotic good
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Feb 13, 2015 23:18
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Really Pants posted:whats ur alignment Noncommittal Granola.
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Feb 13, 2015 23:19
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I'm so upset that that whole rpg.net experiment with taking 3.5e and making a weird US politics game out of it never was ported to 4e.
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Feb 13, 2015 23:23
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Ningyou posted:let's see, like I didn't say "what is kirby's alignment," I said "who is kirby-aligned?" To act as a counterpart to your "waddle dee-aligned" persona.
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Feb 13, 2015 23:27
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Noncommittal Granola. Can I just take naturebox snack names and use those as alignments? My next D&D character's gonna be Pistachio Power Clusters.
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Feb 13, 2015 23:34
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Level 13 Tahini Pistachio Halva
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Feb 13, 2015 23:35
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Ningyou posted:let's see, like Sorry, Kirby operates according to his own moral code, therefore he is Lawful Good You see, everyone operates according to their own moral good, therefore no one can be chaotic good 
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Feb 13, 2015 23:36
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Mormon Star Wars posted:Sorry, Kirby operates according to his own moral code, therefore he is Lawful Good Who the hell declares themselves evil, anyway? Like, where did that even start being a thing?
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Feb 13, 2015 23:44
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