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paranoid randroid posted:A hard mode where you only have X weeks to win wouldn't be a bad addition. I thought about that. I think a better way to do it would be to have the monsters slowly get stronger and stronger each week -- like they start out a little week and just gain a hit point a week, an Attack point a month, etc., across the board. Never quite a fail state but time is always pressing.
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Feb 14, 2015 01:09
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UberJew posted:The old ones don't, 2012 XCOM does and is also really good if you haven't played it. I think original x-com had ranks of some sort but no skill tree like new x-com. It was a more subtle thing iirc. (It must have been, since I don't remember what they did.)
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Feb 14, 2015 01:10
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Time_pants posted:The idea of giving this game a lose state boggles my mind. I don't know how fast some of you are playing through the game, but I've put about 10 hours into a single file and I'm only maybe a little over halfway done. If I lost 10 hours of progress, I'd be pissed and probably never play again. I'd imagine I'm not the only one who feels that way. I hope they don't do that, it would really suck. A lot of people have complaints and while some are silly and some are reasonable, there's a lot of potential for the already Good Game and keep in mind this is literally Month One of a 6-month process where it's constantly evolving....that's why it's called Early Access, no matter how polished it is right now.
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Feb 14, 2015 01:12
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I thought about that. I think a better way to do it would be to have the monsters slowly get stronger and stronger each week -- like they start out a little week and just gain a hit point a week, an Attack point a month, etc., across the board. Never quite a fail state but time is always pressing. That's what I was thinking and is waaaay better. The other way just punishes bad players and mistakes. Also you could make it so that as monsters get stronger over time, the heroes that show up in the stagecoach get stronger over time too, to help you if you lose some important dudes. Or it could be an upgrade option for the stagecoach; oh man that'd be so useful. Maybe a little too easy in that case? Make it super expensive?  There's a ton of potential. Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:I think original x-com had ranks of some sort but no skill tree like new x-com. It was a more subtle thing iirc. (It must have been, since I don't remember what they did.) No it definitely did. Every soldier had individual stats, and the stats would go up over time based on what they did. Landing shots would increase a soldier's aim as he ranked up. Some soldiers had psychic aptitude, others did not. That was pretty much it though; just stats. No abilities. The 'levels' were the ranks.
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Feb 14, 2015 01:20
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Carrying heavy stuff into missions would make soldiers stronger, so you wanted a couple guys to carry rocket launchers they couldn't equip, so that one day they could.
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Feb 14, 2015 01:30
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Normal Adult Human posted:Carrying heavy stuff into missions would make soldiers stronger, so you wanted a couple guys to carry rocket launchers they couldn't equip, so that one day they could. It also meant you could do immensely silly things like spend turns having everybody toss flares to each other since every throw improved throwing accuracy, or parade a mind controlled muton in front of troops with ballistic pistols to train reactions and shooting. Not that you ever needed to bother since apart from Psi-Strength every soldier was basically interchangeable. XCOM 2012's skills were a Good Thing.
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Feb 14, 2015 01:34
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I'd stay away from trying to figure out solutions to a problem that may not even exist. Until we find out how exactly the darkest dungeon is working trying to suggest sweeping changes is just dumb. Yes, you can say that as you level your town and guys that you start to not risk so much and can easily recover from mistakes, but if the darkest dungeon is eating 4 level 6 heroes every time you try it, now you kind of need the rest of the stuff to not be dick crushingly hard as you're gonna invest a good amount of bank into a new set of guys. As some of the people have said, any 'solution' needs to be something that doesn't just hurt new players or those down on their luck, but something that actually makes it harder. Also, that last page made me think I was back over in the starbound thread.
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Feb 14, 2015 01:37
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I just had a run where I'd completed the mission early (destroy the shrines, had it by the third room) so I pushed on for loot and got the bounty hunter killed in the next battle. After the mission all three survivors got the "Bad Gambler' trait.
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Feb 14, 2015 01:51
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Old x-com also let you field, like, a dozen guys even in a small strike force, so them being more subtly distinguishable by their modest stats wasn't a problem because you had lots of people to worry about and too much complexity can be frustrating.Hieronymous Alloy posted:I thought about that. I think a better way to do it would be to have the monsters slowly get stronger and stronger each week -- like they start out a little week and just gain a hit point a week, an Attack point a month, etc., across the board. Never quite a fail state but time is always pressing. I agree with this. Let monsters level up in small ways week to week, indicated with an aura or making the upgraded numbers pulse with malicious intent.
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Feb 14, 2015 01:53
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Old X-COM was about losing 6/8 soldiers in early fights. The Rookie Meatgrinder and the Stalingrad that took place at every UFO breach was wonderful.
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Feb 14, 2015 01:57
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Night10194 posted:The challenge is 'Goddamnit, Dismas, you're one of the only guys I know by name you can't die now!'  He was just no match for that... Bone Courtier? :darkestdungeon:  At least I still have Reynauld! paranoid randroid posted:I keep forgetting this game is like 6 months from actual release. I think that's a good sign.
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Feb 14, 2015 02:10
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Well if you guys don't want fail state give it an iron man mode and another mode where you play with multiple manual saves because this is essentially what we've got at the moment. The "there is only one save file" thing means jack poo poo without a fail state. The game is atmospheric, intriguing and easy. These are facts, not criticisms. Let me break it down for you, a turn based rpg is nothing but a static puzzle with some degree of obfuscation going on, except it's easier to solve because you don't have to come up with the correct solution, just one that works reliably. This is very easy for Darkest Dungeons, in its current state because there are easily identfyable good and bad classes and skills. how me a frog fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Feb 14, 2015 |
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Feb 14, 2015 02:14
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how me a frog posted:Well if you guys don't want fail state give it an iron man mode and another mode where you play with multiple manual saves because this is essentially what we've got at the moment. The "there is only one save file" thing means jack poo poo without a fail state. The fact that you can't save and reload means you are forced to deal with mistakes. It doesn't matter if there is a fail state, you still have to deal with your mistakes rather than just save scumming every time the RNG doesn't go your way. how me a frog posted:Let me break it down for you, a turn based rpg is nothing but a static puzzle with some degree of obfuscation going on, except it's easier to solve because you don't have to come up with the correct solution, just one that works reliably. This is very easy for Darkest Dungeons, in its current state because there are easily identfyable good and bad classes and skills. Okay, but how does adding a fail state solve that problem? I agree that this game has balance issues but adding a fail state doesn't actually solve any of the ones I've encountered. I'm not scumming the game by firing and hiring soldiers on a regular basis either.
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Feb 14, 2015 02:23
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how me a frog posted:Well if you guys don't want fail state give it an iron man mode and another mode where you play with multiple manual saves because this is essentially what we've got at the moment. The "there is only one save file" thing means jack poo poo without a fail state. i think a salient part of this conversation is that you think dota is a good game
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Feb 14, 2015 02:24
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Internet Kraken posted:The fact that you can't save and reload means you are forced to deal with mistakes. It doesn't matter if there is a fail state, you still have to deal with your mistakes rather than just save scumming every time the RNG doesn't go your way. Except you're NOT, because witout a timer or mandatory escalation of difficulty in any form (you always have access to baby missions, you can even bring lvl 2 duddes to level your new baby and people are crying about not being able to bring lvl 3 and above people) there is nothing stopping you from from replacing your cool lvl 5 hellion with another one you grind up. This process is trivial. Coolguye posted:i think a salient part of this conversation is that you think dota is a good game Quote your sources.
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Feb 14, 2015 02:26
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I don't want a fail state or a timer. A victory state will be nice when it comes along, but I'm having fun with the endless grind of murder and mythos. I hope there's plenty of options as the game goes on, or maybe unlockable modes after each time you beat it. Hardcore, boss rush, timed, iron man, whatever. Do the devs have any plans for further expansions after the game is complete?
Waffle! fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Feb 14, 2015 |
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Feb 14, 2015 02:27
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how me a frog posted:Except you're NOT, because witout a timer or mandatory escalation of difficulty in any form (you always have access to baby missions, you can even bring lvl 2 duddes to level your new baby and people are crying about not being able to bring lvl 3 and above people) there is nothing stopping you from from replacing your cool lvl 5 hellion with another one you grind up. This process is trivial. First, replacing a level 5 hero isn't trivial. Its possible, but definitely not a fast process. I beat all of the tier 3 bosses and had a grand total of two heroes reach level 5 by the end, and I didn't lose many either. The experience gain really slows down once you reach level 3 but it doesn't really matter since by that point you have all the strength you'll need on that hero. Second, I imagine they're trying to make you care about your heroes and not want them to get killed. So that when you lose a high level hero, even though you can replace them, it feels like a major gently caress up on your part. Not being able to save scum means you can't just undo that loss either, you have to live with it. Now right now, the quirk system doesn't really do enough to differentiate heroes. If they made quirks more unique and significant, you'd probably care more about a developed soldier. You're not supposed to think "gently caress I needed that lvl 5 Hellion to beat the game", you should think "dammit no I didn't want to lose Lucy!". At least I think that's what they are going for. Regardless, what game is there where the failure state stays relevant the entire time? Serious question. In the original Xcom soldiers can die by the droves and it won't matter. In Xcom:EU, the fail state becomes basically irrelevant after the first two months because you'll have the global situation under control. Losing soldiers at that point sucks but isn't game ending by any stretch of the imagination. I can't think of a fail state for this game that would actually matter.
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Feb 14, 2015 02:33
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Waffle! posted:I don't want a fail state or a timer. A victory state will be nice when it comes along, but I'm having fun with the endless grind of murder and mythos. I hope there's plenty of options as the game goes on, or maybe unlockable modes after each time you beat it. Hardcore, boss rush, timed, iron man, whatever. Do the devs have any plans for further expansions after the game is complete?
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Feb 14, 2015 02:35
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Internet Kraken posted:First, replacing a level 5 hero isn't trivial. Its possible, but definitely not a fast process. I beat all of the tier 3 bosses and had a grand total of two heroes reach level 5 by the end, and I didn't lose many either. The experience gain really slows down once you reach level 3 but it doesn't really matter since by that point you have all the strength you'll need on that hero. I'll admit it takes a lot of time. I will stick by my guns it is trivial though. My graveyard has 3 people in it and those are all lvl 0 chumps who died when I was getting my grips. If you somewhow manage to get a high level hero killed in the first place there is something fundamentally wrong with your decision making process cause you can just throw in the towel at the cost of about 5k gold which at this stage of the game is pathetic pocket change. Even if you somehow don't have that amount of money, just send 4 lvl 0 scrubs off with no supplies and you got it, send your good dudes to the brothel or wherever and cheese another "mission" with off the wagon gimps to pass the time. Cause those are free so hey, free money free time mo powah to ya. Like, let me ask you this: what is the point of getting random heroes each "turn" if you can just bank whatever you want in your barracks, then hire 4 random dudes, start a mission (0 supplies) which is invariably available, then instantly abandon it and fire all four stressed out gibbons to go back to the stage coach which now has a fresh set of recruits. This is no different than just letting you recruit people by clicking on the respective class buttons, it's just more roundabout and wearisome. Starting skills mean nothing because it costs maybe a tiny amount of gold to have every recruit have exactly the skills you want him or her to have. edit: I also think its poo poo that the loading screen shows the fully upgraded hamlet, the little visual improvements are part of the reward really. Or should be if there wasn't a huge spoiler every time you started the game. how me a frog fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Feb 14, 2015 |
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Feb 14, 2015 02:37
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It's not outside the realm of possibility that they'll add a hardcore mode for all the weirdos who want their video games to be some kind of masochistic endurance contest. The only thing available at launch now is Campaign mode, Hardcore and Oh God What Am I Getting Myself Into would fit on that menu very well!
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Feb 14, 2015 02:51
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RightClickSaveAs posted:It's not outside the realm of possibility that they'll add a hardcore mode for all the weirdos who want their video games to be some kind of masochistic endurance contest. If you look at the op you will see this described as dark souls and xcom (both notably hard games) put in a blender so I feel "this is not actually hard at all" is a valid criticism. That being said I am dubious aboubt the future of this game as they have to add some more classes and they have proven unable to balance the already existing ones while also failing to make the dungeons distinct in anything but the visual representation.
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Feb 14, 2015 02:54
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how me a frog posted:If you look at the op you will see this described as dark souls and xcom (both notably hard games) put in a blender so I feel "this is not actually hard at all" is a valid criticism. That being said I am dubious aboubt the future of this game as they have to add some more classes and they have proven unable to balance the already existing ones while also failing to make the dungeons distinct in anything but the visual representation. You are aware Dark Souls has absolutely no fail state, right? That that's a major part of the game?
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Feb 14, 2015 02:55
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how me a frog posted:I'll admit it takes a lot of time. I will stick by my guns it is trivial though. My graveyard has 3 people in it and those are all lvl 0 chumps who died when I was getting my grips. If you somewhow manage to get a high level hero killed in the first place there is something fundamentally wrong with your decision making process cause you can just throw in the towel at the cost of about 5k gold which at this stage of the game is pathetic pocket change. Even if you somehow don't have that amount of money, just send 4 lvl 0 scrubs off with no supplies and you got it, send your good dudes to the brothel or wherever and cheese another "mission" with off the wagon gimps to pass the time. Cause those are free so hey, free money free time mo powah to ya. I guess if you're going to exploit a flaw in the system and play like a scummy sperg then yeah, that part of the game is broken. It seemed obvious to me though its that way to let struggling players stay in the game, not let successful players abuse the system to keep things absolutely perfect. That's probably going to change but unlike you I don't think adding a failure state to punish new players is the way to do it. Just keep people from firing heroes cost free later on when you obviously don't need too anymore.
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Feb 14, 2015 02:57
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Night10194 posted:You are aware Dark Souls has absolutely no fail state, right? That that's a major part of the game? It has a soft fail state in that no matter how hard you grind you will be unable to finish the game and you can irrevocably spec your character to be a bucket of poo poo which will achieve much of the same.
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Feb 14, 2015 02:58
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Internet Kraken posted:' Sorry, if a game gives you a gun that does 10 damage, and another that does 100, using the latter does not make you a scummy sperg, it is just an indication that you are possibly not braindead. "oh but you're not playing it in the way where it would be challenging, the game is not piss easy nobody is forcing you to use the 100 damage gun you could use the 10 damage one if you want a challenge" is the weakest defense for poor design I have ever come across.
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Feb 14, 2015 03:00
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Dark Souls is, in my experience, generally recognized by the "I like things to be challenging" crowd as not actually very hard for many of the same reasons you're pointing out here; SL1 runs were a thing and clearly indicate that it doesn't particularly matter how lovely your spec was. Anyway. I think you're right in this case, but I don't think a failure state is a good solution - as has been mentioned, all of the obvious ideas punish people who are bad at the game without actually adding any challenge for the people who want a challenge. There definitely ought to be something attached to the passage of time, though; right now it feels completely bizarre that the game tracks time without attaching anything dynamic to it.
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Feb 14, 2015 03:03
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This game is really good, I think it's the sort of thing I've been looking for without realizing it. So what does the "ranged" quantifier mean? Every position other than the front, back two positions, or farthest back only?
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Feb 14, 2015 03:06
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how me a frog posted:Sorry, if a game gives you a gun that does 10 damage, and another that does 100, using the latter does not make you a scummy sperg, it is just an indication that you are possibly not braindead. "oh but you're not playing it in the way where it would be challenging, the game is not piss easy nobody is forcing you to use the 100 damage gun you could use the 10 damage one if you want a challenge" is the weakest defense for poor design I have ever come across. You're an idiot if you can't tell the difference between using a more powerful weapon and exploiting system the developers obviously didn't intend. Here's a hint; one is supposed to be strong, the other is design oversight. Its not an excuse for it existing but your proposed solution is poo poo. The answer isn't to punish new players, its to keep people like you who can't help but exploit everything from doing so. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Feb 14, 2015 |
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Feb 14, 2015 03:06
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Irony.or.Death posted:Dark Souls is, in my experience, generally recognized by the "I like things to be challenging" crowd as not actually very hard for many of the same reasons you're pointing out here; SL1 runs were a thing and clearly indicate that it doesn't particularly matter how lovely your spec was. Anyway. I think you're right in this case, but I don't think a failure state is a good solution - as has been mentioned, all of the obvious ideas punish people who are bad at the game without actually adding any challenge for the people who want a challenge. There definitely ought to be something attached to the passage of time, though; right now it feels completely bizarre that the game tracks time without attaching anything dynamic to it. I agree with this, I'm just spitballing here as the game is very much work in progress and I understand that. I use cinema pricing for my game purchases. If I get 2 hours of enjoyment per 8 Euros of price I consider it money well spent. Using this metric I'm already well ahead. I just didn't think it was an affront that behind the awesome wart and presentation there are some really glaring flaws as it stands. Also I was never beat Dark Souls 1 or 2 cause they were too hard for me despite enjoying both a lot. On the flipside hard mode ironmane (new) xcom was a cakewalk. v  vInternet Kraken posted:You're an idiot if you can't tell the difference between using a more powerful weapon and exploiting system the developers obviously didn't intend. Here's a hint; one is supposed to be strong, the other is design oversight. Its not an excuse for it existing but your proposed solution is poo poo. The answer isn't to punish new players, its to keep people like you who can't help but exploit everything from doing so. I'm an idiot for "exploiting" such a massive "design oversite" but the genius developers are to be excused for having it in place. Yeah makes perfect sense thanks. how me a frog fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Feb 14, 2015 |
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Feb 14, 2015 03:07
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Coolguye posted:i think a salient part of this conversation is that you think dota is a good game Anyone who enjoys dota is incapable of recognizing good game design
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Feb 14, 2015 03:09
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Improbable Lobster posted:Anyone who enjoys dota is incapable of recognizing good game design Find a quote where I express appreciation for dota, why don't you? As it stands all you've got is I posted in a thread about a thing so clearly I love it. I also posted in the less wrong thread and I don't believe in a backwards time universe torture AI. Funny that.
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Feb 14, 2015 03:12
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Sex Beef 2.0 posted:This game is really good, I think it's the sort of thing I've been looking for without realizing it. Ranged means it gets bonuses from things that give bonuses to "ranged" skills. Same with "melee."
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Feb 14, 2015 03:12
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Sex Beef 2.0 posted:So what does the "ranged" quantifier mean? Every position other than the front, back two positions, or farthest back only?
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Feb 14, 2015 03:12
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FreeKillB posted:Every attack skill has a designation as 'melee' or 'ranged'. You can have melee attacks from back rows (eg breakthru) and ranged attacks from the front row (eg point blank shot). Ah, that makes sense, thanks. I do wish this game was a bit more clear with the tooltips, like with the Bounty Hunter's Collect Bounty I wasn't sure if "tagged" mean the same thing as "marked" for a while. Maybe I'm just an idiot
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Feb 14, 2015 03:15
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how me a frog posted:I'm an idiot for "exploiting" such a massive "design oversite" but the genius developers are to be excused for having it in place. Yeah makes perfect sense thanks. Internet Kraken posted:Its not an excuse for it existing but your proposed solution is poo poo. And no, you're an idiot for acting like this is an intended game mechanic and not an obvious design oversight. Obviously they don't intend for you to be able to freely skip time because that negates the entire point of stress relieving actions costing time in the first place. They made hiring more heroes free because it lets new players stay in the game rather than getting crushed and fed up with it. They didn't intend for you to abuse that so you could always use your A team and negate the entire point of activities costing time. It does need to be changed, but as I've said several times now, adding a failure state probably won't do much more than inconvenience experienced players while hindering new ones. If you actually had a good idea I wouldn't be giving you grief but all you've done is say "give it a failure state!" without explaining how that would work.
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Feb 14, 2015 03:15
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how me a frog posted:I'll admit it takes a lot of time. I will stick by my guns it is trivial though. My graveyard has 3 people in it and those are all lvl 0 chumps who died when I was getting my grips. If you somewhow manage to get a high level hero killed in the first place there is something fundamentally wrong with your decision making process cause you can just throw in the towel at the cost of about 5k gold which at this stage of the game is pathetic pocket change. Even if you somehow don't have that amount of money, just send 4 lvl 0 scrubs off with no supplies and you got it, send your good dudes to the brothel or wherever and cheese another "mission" with off the wagon gimps to pass the time. Cause those are free so hey, free money free time mo powah to ya. After a certain point you really don't want to just grab four new people and fire them because you only have 20 roster slots. Once you get a few teams leveled up and a good character of each class you really don't want to fire four even mid-level guys with decent quirks just to make room for trash. That said the game should have some sort of failure state but I think a slowly increasing difficulty timer is best. Something like one extra hp/monster/week, just to add a little tension to the game. And you *can* lose even top level characters sometimes. I lost a level 5 Dismas to the Swine God and Wilbur --- 67-point critical hit immediately followed by Wilbur's one-point deathblow. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Feb 14, 2015 |
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Feb 14, 2015 03:25
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how me a frog posted:I'm an idiot for "exploiting" such a massive "design oversite" but the genius developers are to be excused for having it in place. Yeah makes perfect sense thanks. You are a whiny sperg that will not be happy no matter what. Please go away.
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Feb 14, 2015 03:26
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So when this game releases in full with the Darkest Dungeon, will you have to start a new game or can you just keep going with your old save?
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Feb 14, 2015 03:28
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:After a certain point you really don't want to just grab four new people and fire them because you only have 20 roster slots. Once you get a few teams leveled up and a good character of each class you really don't want to fire four even mid-level guys with decent quirks just to make room for trash. You really only need two teams come midgame as sending all four of one team to gently caress and pray or what ever will reset their stress to 0. Add another 4 free agents if you want to mix it up a bit occasionally. That still leaves a grand total of 8 slots open to whatever shennanigans you have in mind. Fully enough to bank up to 4 people to grind up while still having enough room to send 4 chumps on death marches.
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Feb 14, 2015 03:32
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how me a frog posted:You really only need two teams come midgame as sending all four of one team to gently caress and pray or what ever will reset their stress to 0. Add another 4 free agents if you want to mix it up a bit occasionally. That still leaves a grand total of 8 slots open to whatever shennanigans you have in mind. Fully enough to bank up to 4 people to grind up while still having enough room to send 4 chumps on death marches. Yeah, I see what you're saying, but there are going to be 14 character classes; if you want one good character of each or spares of "favorite" classes, i.e., an extra Vestal or two, or some extra Occultists etc., that pretty swiftly eats up your slots. I mean yeah you can get away with just two teams but given how brutal the game can be you generally want spares of your favorite classes, and if you have spares, you don't have room on the roster for scruffs.
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Feb 14, 2015 03:37
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