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Popular Thug Drink posted:http://lmgtfy.com/?q=muslim+leaders+condemn+charlie+hebdo+violence Calm down tiger! 1. It's completely reasonable to ask people to substantiate their assertions 2. The absence of statements by national leaders doesn't imply anything particular about Islam; I'd just be interested in seeing them if they exist. You seem to have pigeonholed my question as "where are the moderate Muslims" 3. I was asking about a a particular kind of criticism -- SedanChair responded to a post saying "already we've had the leader of the most populous arab state directly criticizing the backwards tendencies of Islam as a whole". Generic "murder is bad" statements are less interesting I might have misunderstood what SedanChair meant by "the whole time". I assumed he meant like, since 9/11 or something. Did he mean "since the day of the Charlie Hebdo attack"? hepatizon fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Feb 9, 2015 |
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Feb 9, 2015 16:27
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hepatizon posted:I might have misunderstood what SedanChair meant by "the whole time". I assumed he meant like, since 9/11 or something. Did he mean "since the day of the Charlie Hebdo attack"? Since Nasser.
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Feb 9, 2015 20:39
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SedanChair posted:Since Nasser. Yeah, Arab nationalism was great and all, but it hasn't exactly been a potent force in the lifetime of most of the people posting on here. The advances of theocratic parties and movements have been many, and secular reforms have been few or far between. Recently, the 'Arab spring' and the U.S. withdrawal from Iraq seemed poised to create a middle east completely dominated by fundamentalist governments, especially since the Turkish military still refuses to do their duty and get rid of Erdoğan. However, the Hebdo attacks and (to a much greater degree) the rise of ISIL have changed that momentum completely. The cynic in me smiles to think that many moderates and intellectuals, not just in Egypt but across the middle east, will be a lot more inclined to forgive el-Sisi's coup now that he has made it clear he intends to use his presidency as a platform to push for reform of religious laws (he may not have explicitly said as much, but the intent seems clear to me). Polarization is a real phenomenon, and sometimes it has to be taken advantage of, even at the risk of some minor intellectual dishonestly. When moderate muslims have to choose between a western-backed authoritarian secularist versus the cartoon supervillains in ISIL and the genital mutilators in the Muslim Brotherhood, they'll have no choice but to argue in favor of the former.
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Feb 9, 2015 22:49
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Liberal_L33t posted:Yeah, Arab nationalism was great and all, but it hasn't exactly been a potent force in the lifetime of most of the people posting on here. The advances of theocratic parties and movements have been many, and secular reforms have been few or far between. Recently, the 'Arab spring' and the U.S. withdrawal from Iraq seemed poised to create a middle east completely dominated by fundamentalist governments, especially since the Turkish military still refuses to do their duty and get rid of Erdoğan. the gently caress is this post you wrote this what the gently caress
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Feb 11, 2015 13:34
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Holy cow that is a bad post.quote:Polarization is a real phenomenon, and sometimes it has to be taken advantage of, even at the risk of some minor intellectual dishonestly. Excellent.
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Feb 11, 2015 13:37
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It's easy being intellectually dishonest about a country you don't have to live in I guess.
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Feb 11, 2015 13:40
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Didn't you know the army has a duty? To slay protesters and depose elected leaders. I presume we can expect Ted Cruz to be bayonetted on the Capitol steps any day now. Oh wait were you talking about other nations only?
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Feb 11, 2015 15:20
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SedanChair posted:I presume we can expect Ted Cruz to be bayonetted on the Capitol steps any day now. You're saying this like that would be a bad thing?  Still, while Ted Cruz is a jackass, he shouldn't be killed for it. If, however, another politician started taking steps towards creating a Christian theocracy in a western country, I'd have no problem with them being neutralized in some fashion by the armed forces of that country. PT6A fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Feb 11, 2015 |
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Feb 11, 2015 15:21
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Disinterested posted:Holy cow that is a bad post.
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Feb 11, 2015 15:47
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PT6A posted:You're saying this like that would be a bad thing? Erdogan and Morsi aren't/weren't making theocracies of their countries, though. Morsi was pushing for a bunch of religious morality in public, and Erdogan is looking comically authoritarian, but neither has ever given any indication that they wanted to be more like e.g. Iran, or make religious conviction somehow necessary to operate in official functions. It's like saying that Merkel is a theocrat because she's from the Christian Democratic Union - sure, they're a bunch of religious reactionaries and this is reflected in their policy, but they aren't planning on fundamentally reshaping the country to be run by religious authorities.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:25
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V. Illych L. posted:Erdogan and Morsi aren't/weren't making theocracies of their countries, though. Morsi was pushing for a bunch of religious morality in public, and Erdogan is looking comically authoritarian, but neither has ever given any indication that they wanted to be more like e.g. Iran, or make religious conviction somehow necessary to operate in official functions. The motto of the Muslim Brotherhood is "God is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. The Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of God is our highest hope. God is great!". Here's some text from the group's own english-language website: IkhwanWeb posted:Ever since the Egyptian people in is majority, along with other African and Asian peoples, embraced Islam in the deep-seated conviction that it is a true religion revealed to a true Prophet by the lord of Mankind, Islam has fully and totally arranged the life and all activities of those peoples. The two basic sources of Islam are the Glorious Qur"an and the Sunnah which is both a theoretical explanation and a practical application of the Glorious Qur"an. That is absolutely the creed of a theocratic movement. The website later tries to clarify that this Islamic law would only be applied to muslims, and non-muslims could live in peace. Even if this were remotely believable or plausible, such a stipulation does nothing to change the fact that a state theocracy would exist with a few democratic trappings. I'm not sure what definition of liberal democracy you are going by, but I would say that broad enforcement of religious law is fundamentally incompatible with it. Look at the context: Daesh is rampaging through Iraq and Syria, showing the world what "Islamic law" really looks like in practice, as if Iran and Saudi Arabia hadn't been good enough examples already. Even if Daesh as such didn't exist until recently, Islamic extremism has been ravaging the middle east as badly or worse than western colonialism. And when the president of the most populous arab muslim state is representing a party calling for Islamic law, that doesn't strike you as a crisis worthy of military intervention? The point is not that Islam itself is SOO TERRIBLE. But there is a large and aggressive movement in favor of theocracy in the arab world, and when army leaders can stop a country from falling to theocracy, they absolutely should. If Ted Cruz or whoever was advocating an equivalent platform (the GOP's mealy-mouthed "Christian heritage" stuff, while unpleasant, is not remotely comparable to outright calling for theocracy) and won an election and began to implement religious law, then yes, the military would have a duty to remove him from office, if not outright arrest him. It is true that the AKP in Turkey hasn't quite crossed the point of no return the way that Morsi did, and at the moment is merely a bad party, rather than an outright theocracy. But he is drifting further and further in that direction. At the moment, muslim conservative commentators online have pounced on this Chapel Hill shooting almost before the bodies were cold with cries of moral equivalency. However, I think they will be sorely disappointed if they think this incident will somehow shift the media narrative in their favor. In this case, not only was the motive much less clear cut (since he didn't actually announce that the killing was for religious reasons, as the French terrorists did). More importantly, muslim conservatives aren't going to find a lot of secularists blaming the victims here, which is the real reason why the outrage over CH grew so large, so fast. Liberal_L33t fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Feb 12, 2015 |
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Feb 12, 2015 00:36
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Cingulate posted:The murder of cartoonists is bad, therefore Sisi's coup is justified.
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Feb 14, 2015 15:56
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Seems there has been an attack in Denmark (link in Danish). Shots were fired at a public debate about "Art, blasphemy and freedom of expression" while the French ambassador to Denmark was delivering a speech. Swedish Mohammed charicaturist Lars Vilks was also present, but was not injured. Several police officers are reported to have been injured. Seems likely that the motive for the attack was similar to the one on CH.
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Feb 14, 2015 16:42
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Kopijeger posted:Seems there has been an attack in Denmark (link in Danish). Shots were fired at a public debate about "Art, blasphemy and freedom of expression" while the French ambassador to Denmark was delivering a speech. Swedish Mohammed charicaturist Lars Vilks was also present, but was not injured. Several police officers are reported to have been injured. Seems likely that the motive for the attack was similar to the one on CH. One civilian reported dead by TV2news (https://twitter.com/tv2newsdk) 2 police officers injured. 2 gun men fled the scene in dark VW polo.
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Feb 14, 2015 17:35
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Hard to know where all the anti Muslim sentiment comes from these days 
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Feb 14, 2015 17:43
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Slipknot Hoagie posted:Hard to know where all the anti Muslim sentiment comes from these days To be fair, we don't know who shot in Copenhagen just yet
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Feb 14, 2015 17:48
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Slipknot Hoagie posted:Hard to know where all the anti Muslim sentiment comes from these days Well apparently it's because of the way they park their cars.
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Feb 14, 2015 17:58
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Slipknot Hoagie posted:Hard to know where all the anti Muslim sentiment comes from these days Right here, from you.
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Feb 14, 2015 18:02
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Slipknot Hoagie posted:Hard to know where all the anti Muslim sentiment comes from these days Let's not jump to conclusions, it was probably over a parking dispute or something. Plus have you seen some of Vilks' cartoons? He was no angel, can you blame them?
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Feb 14, 2015 18:27
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Just stop arguing about it. A month from now the king of political correctness will keep arguing long after everyone else has left.
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Feb 14, 2015 18:39
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Does this mean we're all Charlie again now?
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Feb 14, 2015 18:45
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Jag är Lars
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Feb 14, 2015 19:02
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AKA Pseudonym posted:Jag är Lars Hej Lars
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Feb 14, 2015 19:04
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A close eyewitness reported the shooter was a 25-30-year-old white man—"looked like a European, could easily be an ehtnic Dane". Take that for what you will.
SplitSoul fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Feb 14, 2015 |
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Feb 14, 2015 19:18
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SplitSoul posted:A close eyewitness reported the shooter was a 25-30-year-old white man—"looked like a European, could easily be an ehtnic Dane". Take that for what you will. Slipknot Hoagie posted:Hard to know where all the anti Muslim sentiment comes from these days (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 14, 2015 19:30
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SplitSoul posted:A close eyewitness reported the shooter was a 25-30-year-old white man—"looked like a European, could easily be an ehtnic Dane". Take that for what you will. #jeSuisDanois
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Feb 14, 2015 19:30
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Also the venue is called the Powder Keg.
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Feb 14, 2015 19:55
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Watch Kyoon start a loving thread.
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Feb 14, 2015 19:58
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Police put out an APB on a man with "Arabic appearance, but with lighter skin than usual", a yellow/orange and red keffiyeh and a 90-100 cm "black plastic" firearm. He is believed to have an accomplice.
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Feb 14, 2015 20:07
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SplitSoul posted:Police put out an APB on a man with "Arabic appearance, but with lighter skin than usual", a yellow/orange and red keffiyeh and a 90-100 cm "black plastic" firearm. He is believed to have an accomplice. I've just heard they both looked "north African"
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Feb 14, 2015 20:09
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brylcreem posted:#jeSuisDanois They don't speak French there. Try #JegErDansker.
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Feb 14, 2015 20:11
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Only one guy apparently e: picture might not be the guy, police says unpacked robinhood fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Feb 14, 2015 |
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Feb 14, 2015 20:14
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unpacked robinhood posted:I've just heard they both looked "north African" It's weird with all the conflicting reports. White, Arab, North African, in the dark with a winter coat and gloves and a keffiyeh covering most of his face. Kopijeger posted:They don't speak French there. Try #JegErDansker. brylcreem is a Dane, dude. He was making a joke. unpacked robinhood posted:Only one guy apparently Police here are saying two. They hijacked a car following the attack. Edit: 
SplitSoul fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Feb 14, 2015 |
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Feb 14, 2015 20:16
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Feb 14, 2015 21:29
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This incident, I think, might convince the Euro governments that they need to be perceived as punching back in the aftermath of Islamically-motivated attacks on media figures. Decrying them in the media and winning the public relations war is the key to defeating the Islamic conservative movement which has metastasized to Europe, they need to back up that condemnation with action, especially if they don't want the right-nationalists to make hay out of such attacks. At the same time, these governments need to avoid repeating the mistakes of France during the Dieudionne incident where the principle of free-speech seemed to be undermined. As I've said before, publicly advocating blasphemy and baiting Islamists into self-defeating acts of violence is a big part of that, but without perceived response by the secular government, the frustration and siege mentality among nativE Europeans will grow and the far-right will benefit. I think that with a little creativity, law enforcement and the secular public in Europe can thread the needle of demonstrating a commitment to aggressively defeat Islamism in Europe while hampering the efforts of muslim apologists to play the victim card. Sting operations targeted at the "modesty patrols" that have cropped up in parts of Germany, Britain and other nations, followed by a police crackdown, would be a good start. This should be combined with a media campaign targeting European muslims with the message that any perceived efforts to impose or enforce Islamic mores in the public space will result in massive retaliation. When the aggressive, judgmental minority is clamped down on, the muslim population as a whole will benefit because the Christian, Jewish and secular population will be less suspicious of them. Don't try and spin this into me saying that all bigotry, racial and cultural prejudice by native Europeans would magically end - but without the shari'ah patrols and islamic courts in the news inflaming those tensions, it seems likely you would see less vandalism of mosques and the like.
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Feb 14, 2015 22:41
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Liberal_L33t posted:I think that with a little creativity, law enforcement and the secular public in Europe can thread the needle of demonstrating a commitment to aggressively defeat Islamism in Europe while hampering the efforts of muslim apologists to play the victim card. Sting operations targeted at the "modesty patrols" that have cropped up in parts of Germany, Britain and other nations, followed by a police crackdown, would be a good start. This should be combined with a media campaign targeting European muslims with the message that any perceived efforts to impose or enforce Islamic mores in the public space will result in massive retaliation. When the aggressive, judgmental minority is clamped down on, the muslim population as a whole will benefit because the Christian, Jewish and secular population will be less suspicious of them. Don't try and spin this into me saying that all bigotry, racial and cultural prejudice by native Europeans would magically end - but without the shari'ah patrols and islamic courts in the news inflaming those tensions, it seems likely you would see less vandalism of mosques and the like. My, what an industrious little architect you are. Somebody will find a use for you!
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Feb 14, 2015 22:45
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Liberal_L33t posted:without the shari'ah patrols and islamic courts in the news inflaming those tensions, it seems likely you would see less vandalism of mosques and the like. Yes, like notable muslim-friendly nation the United States of America
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Feb 14, 2015 23:32
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Audio of the act can be listened to here. Sounds like the shooter/s took aimed shots rather than spraying automatic fire. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31472423 ^^^ The recent shooting in NC notwithstanding, the US seems to have fewer hate crimes against Muslims than most European nations.
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Feb 15, 2015 00:10
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Charlz Guybon posted:Audio of the act can be listened to here. Sounds like the shooter/s took aimed shots rather than spraying automatic fire. http://gawker.com/report-fire-at-houston-islamic-school-was-set-intentio-1685832219
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Feb 15, 2015 00:12
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QwertyAsher posted:http://gawker.com/report-fire-at-houston-islamic-school-was-set-intentio-1685832219 The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data.'
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Feb 15, 2015 00:19
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