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Feb 15, 2015 22:00
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| # ? May 28, 2024 01:43 |
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Welcome.
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Feb 15, 2015 22:05
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It's fine, the melee guy's extra actions are there to keep parity with my bevy of summoned minions.
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Feb 15, 2015 22:24
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Ferrinus posted:RE: having a supernal ability, there are clearly a few "starter" styles whose form-type charms are available at Essence 1, and then more esoteric or advanced styles whose form-type charms only show up at Essence 2. It doesn't seem like the latter are more dangerous overall than the former, but they are more vanilla. A starting character will be able to buy, like, ~six charms before they automatically jump to Essence 2, assuming they buy nothing but, so unless you're absolutely set on starting with Righteous Devil or something I don't think practicing non-supernal MA will really hurt you... and since as far as I can tell none of the MA charms actually go above Essence 3, you'd end up feeling kind of silly about it unless a helpful supplement came out nice and quick. The issue is probably that they want Sid martial arts to be available at E4-E5 so that Solars and Sidereals can actually get them in the scope of well-defined Essence levels, but they don't have any ready for the corebook, and didn't want to create any overlap for......some reason. I don't know. I do like how tightly-contained the Martial Arts are now, absolutely. One of my biggest complaints about 2e Martial Arts was that most styles had a metric shitload of filler charms I needed to take to get the 3-4 charms that I'd actually use. One thing that I think is cool: Evocations are a good way to let a martial artist continue to get new combat charms compatible with their chosen styles. I admit I am kind of dismayed at how many extra action effects made it into the game, but it at least seems a lot harder to be making multiple attacks at your max dicepool. But still, I thought that was out.
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Feb 15, 2015 23:21
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I'd be surprised if Solar martial artists were expected to be picking up Sidereal martial arts around the same time that Solar brawlers were picking up Orichalcum Fists of Battle or whatever. It'd make more sense if there were just particularly advanced and powerful celestial MA kicking around, ones that started at E 2-3 and took you all the way up to 5. They wouldn't be based on reversing the principles of causality or anything - they'd just be really strong and cool, maybe the kind of martial arts designed by Chosen for Chosen rather than something mortals practice.
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Feb 16, 2015 00:37
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I think the one problem with Evocations being a way to grow on power even after you master your form is that a few of them (black claw especially, my favorite thematics and story wise) require you to remain completely unarmed. That's kinda lame, and I see Evocations as just making that even worse than just the missing stats from having an artifact weapon. Edit: Also, it's missing the best martial art, Crystal Chameleon. They hosed up bad there. 
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Feb 16, 2015 00:42
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[quote="KittyEmpress" post=""441609964"] Edit: Also, it's missing the best martial art, Crystal Chameleon. They hosed up bad there. [/quote] Martial Arts was ruined the moment they cut out Heaven's Ladder and replaced it with Steel Devil.
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Feb 16, 2015 01:02
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I liked reading most of the martial arts but I found myself skating down pages of Steel Devil charms and realizing I had no idea what I'd just read. Great, cool, Offhand Charge or whatever, this is real exciting + worth learning the nitty-gritty of, guys. On an unrelated note, I see that Stephenls's favorite Performance charm, Phantom-Conjuring Performance, made it into the game completely unchanged, thus ensuring that all our Performance stunts are that much crappier by default. This is win.
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Feb 16, 2015 01:15
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Ferrinus posted:I'd be surprised if Solar martial artists were expected to be picking up Sidereal martial arts around the same time that Solar brawlers were picking up Orichalcum Fists of Battle or whatever. It'd make more sense if there were just particularly advanced and powerful celestial MA kicking around, ones that started at E 2-3 and took you all the way up to 5. They wouldn't be based on reversing the principles of causality or anything - they'd just be really strong and cool, maybe the kind of martial arts designed by Chosen for Chosen rather than something mortals practice. That'd be cool with me, as long as something filled the void. Though I do want Sid MA something you can develop at E3-E5, at least for Sids.
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Feb 16, 2015 01:24
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Ferrinus posted:I'd be surprised if Solar martial artists were expected to be picking up Sidereal martial arts around the same time that Solar brawlers were picking up Orichalcum Fists of Battle or whatever. It'd make more sense if there were just particularly advanced and powerful celestial MA kicking around, ones that started at E 2-3 and took you all the way up to 5. They wouldn't be based on reversing the principles of causality or anything - they'd just be really strong and cool, maybe the kind of martial arts designed by Chosen for Chosen rather than something mortals practice. If this is true I will really be tempted to make, like, Super Tiger Style (complete with Super Tiger Form), an E4-5 martial art that requires every charm from Tiger Style.
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Feb 16, 2015 01:29
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Bedlamdan posted:Martial Arts was ruined the moment they cut out Heaven's Ladder and replaced it with Steel Devil. Heaven's Ladder was the dumbest loving thing and I'm glad someone in the writing process looked at it and went 'Oh wait this is loving stupid' and cut it.
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Feb 16, 2015 01:46
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Stallion Cabana posted:Heaven's Ladder was the dumbest loving thing and I'm glad someone in the writing process looked at it and went 'Oh wait this is loving stupid' and cut it. *in a movie narrator voice* "This summer, prepare to ascend the Rungs... of Vengeance!"
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Feb 16, 2015 01:57
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Whoops, I had Steel Devil wrong, I missed the double-Form gimmick. Stallion Cabana posted:Heaven's Ladder was the dumbest loving thing and I'm glad someone in the writing process looked at it and went 'Oh wait this is loving stupid' and cut it.
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Feb 16, 2015 02:05
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Steel Devil is weird and does kind of fall into 'why is this a martial art'- in the same way that Shining Point does- but I'd rather have something serious that is kind of weird as a Martial Art then Heaven's Ladder.
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Feb 16, 2015 02:11
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Thank god the Heaven's Ladder style got left out. Now, if only we'd managed to expunge Moran's writing somehow...
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Feb 16, 2015 02:47
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Ferrinus posted:Thank god the Heaven's Ladder style got left out. Now, if only we'd managed to expunge Moran's writing somehow... I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic and insulting me because I basically agree unironically.
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Feb 16, 2015 03:18
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I would never sarcastically insult you.
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Feb 16, 2015 03:20
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Ferrinus posted:I would never sarcastically insult you. I'm glad that the lord of Brawl, Sir Martial Arts, has descended from on high to tell me that I'm dumb for having things I don't like.
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Feb 16, 2015 03:32
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Roadie posted:Whoops, I had Steel Devil wrong, I missed the double-Form gimmick. I disagree strongly, mostly because, difficulty using its most basic technique aside, Steel Devil is really loving cool. It's an offense-through-defense style than then turns up the heat by letting you pretend you're Zoro from One Piece. poo poo just feels good when it goes off without a hitch.
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Feb 16, 2015 03:33
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Stallion Cabana posted:I'm glad that the lord of Brawl, Sir Martial Arts, has descended from on high to tell me that I'm dumb for having things I don't like. You're being stupid :P
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Feb 16, 2015 03:35
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Evocations! Candent Carbuncle (Greater Hearthstone)  The Freedom Stone (Greater Hearthstone)  Black Wind (Soulsteel Skycutter, Artifact )  Brilliant Sentinel (Orichalcum Heavy Plate, Artifact )  The Dawn Fangs (Orichalcum Razor Claws, Artifact )  Freedoms Cadence (Starmetal Chain Shirt, Artifact )  Shining Ice Mirror (Blue Jade Reaper Daiklave, Artifact )  Dauntless (Orichalcum and Jade Lamellar Armor, Artifact )  Heartflame (Orichalcum Daiklave, Artifact )  Orichalcum Hunting Hawk (Orichalcum Powerbow, Artifact )  Spring Razor (Green Jade Daiklave, Artifact )  Volcano Cutter (Red Jade Reaver Daiklave, Artifact )  Transient People posted:I disagree strongly, mostly because, difficulty using its most basic technique aside, Steel Devil is really loving cool. It's an offense-through-defense style than then turns up the heat by letting you pretend you're Zoro from One Piece. poo poo just feels good when it goes off without a hitch. But shouldn't that just be... Melee? Particularly when Solars already have a well-established set of stuff Solar Counterattack, Ready in Eight Directions Stance, etc?
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Feb 16, 2015 04:38
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drat some of those trees are ugly to look at.
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Feb 16, 2015 04:41
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Roadie posted:But shouldn't that just be... Melee? Particularly when Solars already have a well-established set of stuff Solar Counterattack, Ready in Eight Directions Stance, etc? Would you really want Melee to either give up its very interesting counterattack style, its creative and hypermobile multiattack style, or any of its other trees just to give it access to Steel Devil's gimmicks? That gets you 2e Melee, which was so good it pretty much broke the combat minigame even if the damage values hadn't been busted. I'd rather have Steel Devil exist and be separate so we can enjoy its interesting gameplay instead of having to cut something just so it can fit into Melee.
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Feb 16, 2015 05:02
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I think that Evocations will be the new Green Sun Princes for a while in terms of homebrew Charm trees... especially for ones attached to Immaculate Golden Bow, Glorious Solar Saber, or Glorious Solar Plate Charms (sorry, Thrown users, none for you!), the Bargain with Mara shaping ritual, or the Wood Dragon's Claws or Incomparable Body Arsenal spells, since all of those are effectively innate powers that it's impossible for a jerk ST to easily remove from you. Also, if you're going to really invest heavily into Evocations, make sure to get Lore 5 so you can take Harmonious Academic Methodology, Bottomless Wellspring Approach, Lore-Inducing Concentration, Truth-Rendering Gaze, Sacred Relic Understanding, and two other Lore Charms, then Wake the Sleeper, at which point you can proceed to get half your Evocations free forever. Stallion Cabana posted:drat some of those trees are ugly to look at. They'd be a lot cleaner if the Emerald/Sapphire/Adamant groupings would at least stick to generally splitting across at a certain depth of the Charm tree. 
Roadie fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Feb 16, 2015 |
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Feb 16, 2015 05:02
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What is Heaven's Ladder? It's being referenced a lot but I don't know what it is in the first place.
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Feb 16, 2015 05:05
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Prism posted:What is Heaven's Ladder? It's being referenced a lot but I don't know what it is in the first place. Jackie Chan With A Ladder style. Cut for being too gimmicky and basically a joke that stopped being funny enough to derive inspiration from about five charms in.
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Feb 16, 2015 05:06
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Transient People posted:Jackie Chan With A Ladder style. Cut for being too gimmicky and basically a joke that stopped being funny enough to derive inspiration from about five charms in. I could definitely make a funny and useful charm tree out of that if I felt like it.
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Feb 16, 2015 05:09
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The Evocation trees are often pretty short by the looks of it; someone should make a Heaven's Ladder artifact.
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Feb 16, 2015 05:09
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TheLovablePlutonis posted:I could definitely make a funny and useful charm tree out of that if I felt like it. Some off the top of my head: Trouble-Disavowal Stance (social influence on observers to make it clear you're not the aggressor here) Juggling the Eggshell Vase (fight while holding a fragile object or even use it as a weapon without damaging it) Child's Safe Hearth (reflexively defend other someone and move them with you as part of your action) Light-Foot Rake Dance (move through dangerous terrain or traps without getting hurt, and apply the effects to your enemies) With some thematic tweaking it could even be an explicit bizarro-world cousin of Black Claw Style, but focused on Resolve instead of Guile.
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Feb 16, 2015 05:32
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Transient People posted:Jackie Chan With A Ladder style. Cut for being too gimmicky and basically a joke that stopped being funny enough to derive inspiration from about five charms in. Robert S. Vance decided to cut it in favor of something else because too many people hated fun and told him it was dumb.
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Feb 16, 2015 05:38
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I have to say that Steel Devil Style does pretty much look like something you could just plop into the Solar Melee tree, whereas Single Point does not. If you took away its mechanical gimmick (the Offhand Charge pool thing) you've got... attacking quickly? Counterattacking? There's less of an ethos or aesthetic there in the way the other MAs have got. I wish they'd scrapped the accountancy - RAW Steel Devil is fiddly and baroque even for Exalted - and worked on making the visuals and thematics a little more specific than "fast person". Maybe if Steel Devil was to Athletics what Ebon Shadow is to Stealth, or something.
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Feb 16, 2015 05:43
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So, why does Martial Arts require you to take a 4-dot merit? Martial Arts don't seem to be more powerful than native solar charms, and the separate-ability buy in already limits people picking it up on a whim. Four merit dots could get you a Terrestrial Alfred, or a thousand elite soldiers, or a nation-wide cult honoring you, or lets you be the Not-Evil Vizier or a powerful nation. I mean, Evocations require you to take a 3-4 dot merit (artifact) too, but you don't ALSO have to buy up an ability just to use them. I'm just not seeing how it's worth it.
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Feb 16, 2015 05:48
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Kaza42 posted:I mean, Evocations require you to take a 3-4 dot merit (artifact) too You can also get access to Evocations by buying Glorious Solar Bow, Glorious Solar Saber, or Glorious Solar Plate, in case you aren't a fan of that whole "having some kind of connection to the setting around you" sort of thing.
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Feb 16, 2015 05:52
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Roadie posted:You can also get access to Evocations by buying Glorious Solar Bow, Glorious Solar Saber, or Glorious Solar Plate, in case you aren't a fan of that whole "having some kind of connection to the setting around you" sort of thing. I suspect that not being a fan of "the ST can arbitrarily take your poo poo from you at any time", coupled with a few bad experiences with awful GMs, has more to do with it.
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Feb 16, 2015 05:58
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One thing I'd be worried about in making a Jackie Chan-style martial art is creating the Stunt version of the air-breathing mermaid problem where you've got all sorts of improvised, scenery using stunts that are now Charm design space. "I don't think you can trap the guy with a ladder and flip him off the roof without buying Trapped Climber Technique and spending 2 motes."
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Feb 16, 2015 06:08
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I'm kind of into developing special Charms through your relationship to the platonic ideal of a weapon that you can manifest with some concentration and a bit of a light show.
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Feb 16, 2015 06:09
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Thesaurasaurus posted:I suspect that not being a fan of "the ST can arbitrarily take your poo poo from you at any time", coupled with a few bad experiences with awful GMs, has more to do with it. That too! Also, if your ST makes you pay XP for Artifacts, getting the charms may well be more convenient than spending than 3xp + 6xp + 9xp or whatever on the dots.
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Feb 16, 2015 06:10
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Ferrinus posted:I have to say that Steel Devil Style does pretty much look like something you could just plop into the Solar Melee tree, whereas Single Point does not. If you took away its mechanical gimmick (the Offhand Charge pool thing) you've got... attacking quickly? Counterattacking? There's less of an ethos or aesthetic there in the way the other MAs have got. I wish they'd scrapped the accountancy - RAW Steel Devil is fiddly and baroque even for Exalted - and worked on making the visuals and thematics a little more specific than "fast person". Maybe if Steel Devil was to Athletics what Ebon Shadow is to Stealth, or something. Its ethos is comboing, plain and simple. Steel Devil plays exactly like a fighting game character translated to tabletop - you fish with pokes and stray hits, get a solid hit confirm, and then unload and unload and unload on your target. It even has an Alpha Counter mechanic, even. Kaza42 posted:So, why does Martial Arts require you to take a 4-dot merit? Martial Arts don't seem to be more powerful than native solar charms, and the separate-ability buy in already limits people picking it up on a whim. Four merit dots could get you a Terrestrial Alfred, or a thousand elite soldiers, or a nation-wide cult honoring you, or lets you be the Not-Evil Vizier or a powerful nation. I mean, Evocations require you to take a 3-4 dot merit (artifact) too, but you don't ALSO have to buy up an ability just to use them. I'm just not seeing how it's worth it. Martial Arts are both insanely powerful and picked up faster than Solar charms. Each of them (except maybe White Reaper) does something insanely badass with fighting.
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Feb 16, 2015 06:40
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It's not just Martial Arts, Evocations have a bit of a buy-in too. I've been making characters because I'm bored and so far it's been hard for me to justify taking first tier Evocations in place of charms at character creation because the charm is usually much better even when its not from the supernal ability. There are exceptions of course, but generally the bottom stuff isn't that powerful and it seems better to wait until you get Solar xp to buy them with. Or just get the Lore Evocation activator. edit: Blackwind is pretty drat crazy once you get it rolling.
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Feb 16, 2015 07:15
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| # ? May 28, 2024 01:43 |
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Roadie posted:Volcano Cutter (Red Jade Reaver Daiklave, Artifact )
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Feb 16, 2015 09:10
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