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Agag posted:Human morals are always subjective. The point is that theistic subjectivity strives towards an objective ideal. Atheism has no such ideal, its just whatever you borrow or make up. Show me this objective ideal. Prove that it exists.
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Feb 16, 2015 18:40
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The claim that there is no such thing as an absolute morality is supposed to be a problem for an argument?
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Feb 16, 2015 18:40
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Disinterested posted:The claim that there is no such thing as an absolute morality is supposed to be a problem for an argument? More a problem that others believe that there IS an absolute morality and that they found it at birth or were directly converted into the source, and that morality cannot be found elsewhere.
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Feb 16, 2015 18:42
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CommieGIR posted:Hm, no I didn't do this. Somehow, empathy and compassion are very human qualities that require no divine laws or objective morality. I never said that it would. I don't know where you came up with that second part. I would have an easier time believing that human morality could be sufficiently based on natural tendencies if nature wasn't completely indifferent. Most religious principles of compassion are contrary to nature as we observe it. I will also help you out a bit here: the better argument for an atheistic morality is enlightened self-interest. I don't want to be stabbed in the back, you don't want to be stabbed in the back, so we mutually agree to a law against backstabbing. Of course I would then point out that this is also a religious ethic, but its still better than arguing for natural morality.
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Feb 16, 2015 18:43
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Commie and Who, you guys need to relax and maybe re-read posts, cuz right now y'all are providing the examples that prove atheists can be as dogmatic and ignorant as any fundamentalist - Agag isn't saying anything that goes against the grain of secular anthropology or history, or common sense for that matter.
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Feb 16, 2015 18:44
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Who What Now posted:Show me this objective ideal. Prove that it exists. As I said previously, this is tied in to theism or atheism. If God exists then He presents and objective morality. You deny the existence of any objective morality when you deny the existence of God. Neither position is "provable."
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Feb 16, 2015 18:44
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Agag posted:I would have an easier time believing that human morality could be sufficiently based on natural tendencies if nature wasn't completely indifferent. Most religious principles of compassion are contrary to nature as we observe it. Except animals in nature are not completely indifferent, let alone the fact that we have observed moral tendencies among other social creatures. You are having issues with confirmation bias and privileged frames of reference again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_morality
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Feb 16, 2015 18:45
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Agag posted:I will also help you out a bit here: the better argument for an atheistic morality is enlightened self-interest. I don't want to be stabbed in the back, you don't want to be stabbed in the back, so we mutually agree to a law against backstabbing. I agree with this post to a degree, although of course you are also describing an evolutionary incentive for cooperation as well as a social/rational one.
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Feb 16, 2015 18:46
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Jesus Christ posted:Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? Maybe you should shut up about others and worry about your own poo poo?
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Feb 16, 2015 18:47
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CommieGIR posted:AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You said your morality was socially derived. Our society is largely based on Christian morality, so your morality is a second-hand Christian morality.  Perhaps I misunderstood your claim for the basis of your morality. If so, please re-state it.
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Feb 16, 2015 18:47
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CommieGIR posted:Except animals in nature are not completely indifferent, let alone the fact that we have observed moral tendencies among other social creatures. If I'm starving and homeless I'll take my chances with the Sisters of Charity before I rely on nature.
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Feb 16, 2015 18:49
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Agag posted:You said your morality was socially derived. Our society is largely based on Christian morality, so your morality is a second-hand Christian morality. And Christian Morality was found in Pagan Morality, and Pagan Morality was found in Cult Morality, and Cult Morality was found in Tribal Morality. Its as if this trend points to social sources for morality, and the fact that we evolved as highly social creatures with empathy and compassion versus some divine standard being placed. Agag posted:If I'm starving and homeless I'll take my chances with the Sisters of Charity before I rely on nature. Are you honestly suggesting that only your religion is a source of compassion and empathetic assistance? CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Feb 16, 2015 |
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Feb 16, 2015 18:49
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Agag posted:You said your morality was socially derived. Our society is largely based on Christian morality, so your morality is a second-hand Christian morality. How do you explain non-Christian areas having similar values of "not treating each other poorly"? Was murder or theft not a crime before Jesus started wandering around giving sermons?
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Feb 16, 2015 18:50
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Agag posted:As I said previously, this is tied in to theism or atheism. If God exists then He presents and objective morality. You deny the existence of any objective morality when you deny the existence of God. Neither position is "provable." So you don't have an objective morality, you believe that there is one and you have a subjective one. So why did you outright lie and claim that you have a set of objective morals?
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Feb 16, 2015 18:51
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CommieGIR posted:And Christian Morality was found in Pagan Morality, and Pagan Morality was found in Cult Morality, and Cult Morality was found in Tribal Morality. Maybe. Or maybe all of those moral systems were based on a divinely mandated objective morality. Neither is "provable." I've seen more compassion from theists than atheists, but I agree that this is difficult to quantify.
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Feb 16, 2015 18:51
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Agag posted:You said your morality was socially derived. Our society is largely based on Christian morality, so your morality is a second-hand Christian morality. Wait, do you think we were founded as a Christian nation?
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Feb 16, 2015 18:51
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Who What Now posted:So you don't have an objective morality, you believe that there is one and you have a subjective one. So why did you outright lie and claim that you have a set of objective morals? Theism "has" one as part of its metaphysics. Individuals don't "have" it except as an ideal. I though this was clear, but I apologize if I wasn't specific enough. No need to be rude.
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Feb 16, 2015 18:52
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Agag posted:Maybe. Or maybe all of those moral systems were based on a divinely mandated objective morality. Neither is "provable." Mandated where? How can you prove it was from a divine source? You keep claiming to have an objective morality, but you sure don't know poo poo about it.
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Feb 16, 2015 18:52
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Agag posted:Maybe. Or maybe all of those moral systems were based on a divinely mandated objective morality. Neither is "provable." That's some nice conjecture there. Your religion is not ageless. What is your views on 'Traditional Marriage', since obviously according to your scope your religion is the source of all possible moral guidance. Agag posted:I've seen more compassion from theists than atheists, but I agree that this is difficult to quantify.  CONFIRMATION BIAS
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Feb 16, 2015 18:53
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Agag posted:Theism "has" one as part of its metaphysics. Individuals don't "have" it except as an ideal. Metaphysics are nothing but made up bullshit given a fancy name to try and cover up that they're made up horseshit.
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Feb 16, 2015 18:53
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Who What Now posted:Wait, do you think we were founded as a Christian nation? That's an American political signifier that means nothing to me. All I'm saying is that Western civilization has consisted mostly of Christians, and consequently reflects Christian morality in its social and legal institutions.
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Feb 16, 2015 18:54
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Who What Now posted:Metaphysics are nothing but made up bullshit given a fancy name to try and cover up that they're made up horseshit. Freakin awesome.
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Feb 16, 2015 18:54
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Who What Now posted:Metaphysics are nothing but made up bullshit given a fancy name to try and cover up that they're made up horseshit.  In 10 pages you're going to be asking why people call you pigheaded philistines so I'm just going to make sure that this time you know why.
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Feb 16, 2015 18:55
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^^^^^ No, I know why. Miltank posted:Freakin awesome. Truth hurts, I suppose.
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Feb 16, 2015 18:55
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CommieGIR posted:That's some nice conjecture there. Your religion is not ageless. The point being that God is, or would be, ageless. quote:What is your views on 'Traditional Marriage', since obviously according to your scope your religion is the source of all possible moral guidance. I don't think I've ever seriously used the words "traditional marriage." quote:
Do you do much charity work?
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Feb 16, 2015 18:56
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Agag posted:That's an American political signifier that means nothing to me. All I'm saying is that Western civilization has consisted mostly of Christians, and consequently reflects Christian morality in its social and legal institutions. Western Civilization reflects classical Greco Roman philosophy mixed with Christian idealism. Its not quite as all inspired by Christianity as you make it out to be. Agag posted:The point being that God is, or would be, ageless. So? Unless you are suggesting there were proto-Christian groups with the same ideals as modern Christianity, you have no reason to believe that they were Christianly inspired in their morals Agag posted:I don't think I've ever seriously used the words "traditional marriage." I'm asking for your VIEWS. You want to frame the entirety of morality in a Christian sense, well, get to it then. Agag posted:Do you do much charity work? Do you understand why this is confirmation bias? CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Feb 16, 2015 |
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Feb 16, 2015 18:56
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Who What Now posted:Mandated where? How can you prove it was from a divine source? You keep claiming to have an objective morality, but you sure don't know poo poo about it. Depends on the religion, but for specific to e.g. Christianity its mandated by God and is eternal, and we are aware of God and this morality through revelation. To which you might say "that's a bunch of made up bullshit!" Which certainly makes for an enlightening conversation.
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Feb 16, 2015 18:58
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CommieGIR posted:Western Civilization reflects classical Greco Roman philosophy mixed with Christian idealism. Its not quite as all inspired by Christianity as you make it out to be. I think you left out Germanic paganism, but there are indeed numerous influences. Of which Christianity, and Christians, have predominated.
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Feb 16, 2015 18:59
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Agag posted:Depends on the religion, but for specific to e.g. Christianity its mandated by God and is eternal, and we are aware of God and this morality through revelation. So all morals prior to the Old Testament were divinely inspired by the Christian God. God it. Any other conjectural claims you'd like to make today, or would you like to refute the entirety of the social sciences with 'God of the Gaps' arguments? Agag posted:I think you left out Germanic paganism, but there are indeed numerous influences. Of which Christianity, and Christians, have predominated. I'd highlight the Paganism part, but 
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Feb 16, 2015 18:59
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Agag posted:Depends on the religion, but for specific to e.g. Christianity its mandated by God and is eternal, and we are aware of God and this morality through revelation. Revelation to who? How did you prove that it was actually revealed to them, and that the source was your specific God? quote:To which you might say "that's a bunch of made up bullshit!" Which certainly makes for an enlightening conversation. Sure, it might not be enlightening, but it's also not wrong.
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Feb 16, 2015 19:00
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CommieGIR posted:So all morals prior to the Old Testament were divinely inspired by the Christian God. God it. That is the theological argument, yes. It gets very complicated, but suffice to say that God is morality are eternal, and different human cultures reflect that morality to various degrees. But if you don't believe in God this argument is naturally going to be meaningless to you.
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Feb 16, 2015 19:02
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Yes, Christianity influenced our current moral and ethical understanding of the world. But many individuals and their subjective sense of morals throughout history influenced the message and development of the Christian worldview. Unless you're arguing that Jesus was real and divine and his message was accurately transcribed, which is laughable.
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Feb 16, 2015 19:03
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Agag posted:That is the theological argument, yes. It gets very complicated, but suffice to say that God is morality are eternal, and different human cultures reflect that morality to various degrees. You'd have to assume Christianity is eternal and did not just jump into the scene like so many other religions and claims the social paradigms of that culture that existed prior to that religion. You'd also have to assume that all cultures were without moral prior to Christianity, which is a bold and stupid claim. We know enough to know that even without divinely inspired morality, social creatures find morality via their compassion and need to survive in a social culture. You've provided no evidence to the contrary other than special pleading to your own faith. Agag posted:But if you don't believe in God this argument is naturally going to be meaningless to you. Yes, because we have reason to believe morality is easily found elsewhere. Somehow, the tribes we find that have had no contact with Western Civilization ALSO have moral standards. Explain it.
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Feb 16, 2015 19:04
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Agag posted:That is the theological argument, yes. It gets very complicated, but suffice to say that God is morality are eternal, and different human cultures reflect that morality to various degrees. Hold on though, your theology believes that God literally handed his divine set of rules to the Jews. Are you saying God deliberately handed down less than perfect morals the first time around?
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Feb 16, 2015 19:04
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Jesus was real and divine but his message was lost. We can see reflections of Christ in the Gospels.
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Feb 16, 2015 19:05
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Who What Now posted:Revelation to who? How did you prove that it was actually revealed to them, and that the source was your specific God? Revelation to mankind. The typically listed sources of revelation are of course prophets (e.g. Moses), scripture, the Messiah/Christ, and what Aquinas called "general revelation," or in the world itself as we observe it. So depending on how many of these you get, you will be closer to the still-unreachable objective morality. Accepting or rejecting revelation or imputing its source is, of course, a matter of faith.
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Feb 16, 2015 19:06
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Agag posted:Revelation to mankind. The typically listed sources of revelation are of course prophets (e.g. Moses), scripture, the Messiah/Christ, and what Aquinas called "general revelation," or in the world itself as we observe it. So depending on how many of these you get, you will be closer to the still-unreachable objective morality. So, again, you don't have anything objective at all and it's all subjective. And yet you still maintain that you have access to objective morals despite not having any real means of even knowing what they are.
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Feb 16, 2015 19:08
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Miltank posted:Jesus was real and divine but his message was lost. We can see reflections of Christ in the Gospels. Where's the evidence for him being divine?
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Feb 16, 2015 19:09
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Who What Now posted:Hold on though, your theology believes that God literally handed his divine set of rules to the Jews. Are you saying God deliberately handed down less than perfect morals the first time around? To everybody, but one set to the Jews specifically. But that is specific to Christian theology. In e.g karmic religious the objective morality is just there and you need to open your mind to it, etc. CommieGIR posted:You'd have to assume Christianity is eternal and did not just jump into the scene like so many other religions and claims the social paradigms of that culture that existed prior to that religion. You'd have to assume that God was eternal. Christianity still has its historical point of origin. quote:Yes, because we have reason to believe morality is easily found elsewhere. Somehow, the tribes we find that have had no contact with Western Civilization ALSO have moral standards. Explain it. General revelation. They were able to intuit God's morality based on observation of the created world, rather than through specific revelation.
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Feb 16, 2015 19:09
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Who What Now posted:So, again, you don't have anything objective at all and it's all subjective. And yet you still maintain that you have access to objective morals despite not having any real means of even knowing what they are. Miltank fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Feb 16, 2015 |
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Feb 16, 2015 19:09
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